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Hard to know how intelligent the Hive Mind is when we don't know their origins or why the Tyranids have arrived at our galaxy.

Most likely its plans span centuries or longer, far too much for any human to comprehend.

One of the things the new Tyranid codex mentioned that I found pretty interesting is that the only "true" Tyranids are the ships. All the gribblies on the ground are just a form of an immune system. Synapse creatures are just lynchpin for the hive mind, which is a collective consciousness of the ships, to control these distant feeder organisms. So the hive mind is made up of tons of very large, very ancient space organisms, the whole ground invasion process is just another mechanism for the big old things to feed themselves and reproduce. I feel like people just like the idea of Tyranids having this epic backstory or malevolent purpose, rather than them just being mundane, space-bee-whales, who like all organisms just want to eat and reproduce. It isn't their fault that on a tiny planetary level their eating is utterly horrific to behold. Hell before they encountered their first populated planet with sentient, resisting organisms, they may have just considered planets to be a sort of "producer" organism. I don't think the hive mind is very smart, but it is instinctually genius. Like how the human body can remember antigens and store antibodies and have a prepared response for it for life. The Hive mind remembers all forms of resistance to it's feeding and compensates accordingly; you can never use the same trick twice.

This is also why the bio technology is superior to mechanical. Tyranids can create a new batch of organisms frighteningly quickly to respond to resistance. And if this resistance has been encountered before then the batch of Tyranids it cooks up is perfectly suited to face them. Machines have to be built, maintained, and stored. Also many machines may require power or have components that can wear out. Even an imperial forge world can't crank out a lasgun at the same rate a full blown hive fleet can make termagaunts. The best part is, if the termagaunts all die, the Tyranids can recycle that biomass into a carnifex, you can't make a pile of broken lasguns into a Leman Russ.

 sandant wrote:
One of the things the new Tyranid codex mentioned that I found pretty interesting is that the only "true" Tyranids are the ships. All the gribblies on the ground are just a form of an immune system. Synapse creatures are just lynchpin for the hive mind, which is a collective consciousness of the ships, to control these distant feeder organisms. So the hive mind is made up of tons of very large, very ancient space organisms, the whole ground invasion process is just another mechanism for the big old things to feed themselves and reproduce. I feel like people just like the idea of Tyranids having this epic backstory or malevolent purpose, rather than them just being mundane, space-bee-whales, who like all organisms just want to eat and reproduce. It isn't their fault that on a tiny planetary level their eating is utterly horrific to behold. Hell before they encountered their first populated planet with sentient, resisting organisms, they may have just considered planets to be a sort of "producer" organism. I don't think the hive mind is very smart, but it is instinctually genius. Like how the human body can remember antigens and store antibodies and have a prepared response for it for life. The Hive mind remembers all forms of resistance to it's feeding and compensates accordingly; you can never use the same trick twice.

This is also why the bio technology is superior to mechanical. Tyranids can create a new batch of organisms frighteningly quickly to respond to resistance. And if this resistance has been encountered before then the batch of Tyranids it cooks up is perfectly suited to face them. Machines have to be built, maintained, and stored. Also many machines may require power or have components that can wear out. Even an imperial forge world can't crank out a lasgun at the same rate a full blown hive fleet can make termagaunts. The best part is, if the termagaunts all die, the Tyranids can recycle that biomass into a carnifex, you can't make a pile of broken lasguns into a Leman Russ.

Not so sure about the "hive ships being the only true tyranids. It does compare the ship board trevigons to acting like an immune system.

The Hive Mind is a gestalt entity of hundreds if not thousands of shamans born in Anatolia sometime around 8,000BC...


... sorry, thinking of something else.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why would the Hive Mind pit it's own Hive Fleets against each other? That's just... stupid. It's a waste of energy and biomass.

This seems to have been played down considerably in the most recent codex. In fact, it's not mentioned at all, and they instead point out several times that the fleets all serve the same master intelligence.

<deleted>

Addaran wrote:
And it outmanoeuvered the smartess general of the smartest marine chapters (don't remember his name).

Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines is who you're thinking of, but he's not the smartest general. He himself (as well as another chapter master) cedes the right of command of their combined chapter forces to Dante of the Blood Angels in the 2nd war for Armageddon.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Addaran wrote:
And it outmanoeuvered the smartess general of the smartest marine chapters (don't remember his name).

Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines is who you're thinking of, but he's not the smartest general. He himself (as well as another chapter master) cedes the right of command of their combined chapter forces to Dante of the Blood Angels in the 2nd war for Armageddon.

Yes! That's him. In our codex, he's described as having legendary strategic skills. =P

 TheCustomLime wrote:
(...)
No, it's the other way around. Machines are far superior to organic life when it comes to... well, everything. See, the thing about machines is that they are much easier to make, design and maintain. Say you wanted an organic door. You'd have to redesign a species's organic code from the ground up just to even design the damned thing. Then you'd have to grow it which takes a lot of energy to do. Then you'd have to keep feeding the door as long as you want to keep using it which wastes a lot more energy. A mechanical door requires you to do some drawings, cut some wood/forge some steel and install it onto the frame. It does take energy, yes, but much less than the organic door and you don't have to keep feeding it. The only energy you have to give it is the energy you impart on it as you operate it. You can also maintain a mechanical door with less fuss since you don't have to perform incredibly complex surgery to replace a knob.

See, organics are simply less efficient at obtaining energy than machines. Eating is an incredibly poor way to get energy out of food, for example. You only get 10% out of it I believe. Are machines completely efficient? No. But no system really is. You could argue that the Nids have evolved a super duper energy efficient metabolic process but they still would be better off with using machines for almost all of their needs. Including foot soldiers but people want their gribblies. I suppose a happy medium between cool and realism is if Tyranids were cyborgs of some sort. Their mechanical guns are "grown" with them and are physically integrated with the Nid. That's how I'm going to model my nids at the very least. (...)

I completely yet respectfully disagree with you.

To begin with, my door is made out of wood. That´s organic. And I don´t need feeding it, neither complex surgery to replace a knob.

Organic beings are still ahead of modern science in most regards. Life is a marvel. Compared with live, current machines are clunky and clumsy. And harder to maintain, and less efficient, and downright stupid.

Anyway I think we should agree to disagree here... it is difficult to prove the "machine vs flesh" argument in any sense.

 Kain wrote:

Try to remember what this setting is at it's core, adolescent over the top space fantasy, don't bring your science into it.

Too late... I just explained wormholes and quantum entanglement in another topic: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/592604.page#6781337

I'd love if GW, at some point, launched a new edition with a boost to Nids and introduced new units that are essentially machines using a human host to control it. Machine Nids. Various organic units with similarities to other race's aesthetics and knowledge like Eldar and Tau. Ork variants would be particularly interesting . . .

The Hive Mind is an absolute genius in terms of genetic manipulation and evolution, the race is difficult to deal with in the first place because it hyper-evolves and adapts quickly. I'm sure it could figure out a way to control a human brain, perhaps grow more advanced versions of ours, it's certainly absorbed enough humans.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
I'd love if GW, at some point, launched a new edition with a boost to Nids and introduced new units that are essentially machines using a human host to control it. Machine Nids.

The Hive Mind is an absolute genius in terms of genetic manipulation and evolution, the race is difficult to deal with in the first place because it hyper-evolves and adapts quickly. I'm sure it could figure out a way to control a human brain, perhaps grow more advanced versions of ours, it's certainly absorbed enough humans.

In the past, we absolutely could control human minds on the battlefield via telepathy but then the new codex happened.

Now a specific mind control unit? I could see that happening actually.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

No, it's the other way around. Machines are far superior to organic life when it comes to... well, everything. See, the thing about machines is that they are much easier to make, design and maintain. Say you wanted an organic door. You'd have to redesign a species's organic code from the ground up just to even design the damned thing. Then you'd have to grow it which takes a lot of energy to do. Then you'd have to keep feeding the door as long as you want to keep using it which wastes a lot more energy. A mechanical door requires you to do some drawings, cut some wood/forge some steel and install it onto the frame. It does take energy, yes, but much less than the organic door and you don't have to keep feeding it. The only energy you have to give it is the energy you impart on it as you operate it. You can also maintain a mechanical door with less fuss since you don't have to perform incredibly complex surgery to replace a knob.

But the hive mind can do all that very very easily. The Hive in itself is built to grow thing as they need them and can then render them down with very little expense of energy to get all the raw resources back. It's highly efficient. Sure if Humans were doing it at the genetic level then yes it might well be very hard; but for a creature born, raised and created for this purpose its as easy to them as breathing is to you.

A machine might do similar things and heck you could battle forever on what is the most efficient for a given point in time and technology; but at the end of the day you can't really say one is outright superior to the other in the 40K world.



AS for intelligence the Hive Mind appears to vary - on the one hand they've got genestealer cults who are basically as smart as humans; whilst on the other you've almost mindless rippers. I think that the key thing is not so much a measure of intelligence, but a matter of viewpoint. The Hive Mind and Tyranids have a different set of priorities and values and a different perception of the world to us. As a result they'll make choices that appear strange to us but which are very sound for them, For example Hive ships and fleets will fight each other - just to test out various DNA strains and whichever wins absorbs the other and continues on. We'd consider that a horrific waste to use our own troops in such a way; but for the Hive mind that is how it works.

And considering how much sheer damage they are capable of one cannot deny that its tactics are very effective.

 Kain wrote:

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
I'd love if GW, at some point, launched a new edition with a boost to Nids and introduced new units that are essentially machines using a human host to control it. Machine Nids.

The Hive Mind is an absolute genius in terms of genetic manipulation and evolution, the race is difficult to deal with in the first place because it hyper-evolves and adapts quickly. I'm sure it could figure out a way to control a human brain, perhaps grow more advanced versions of ours, it's certainly absorbed enough humans.

In the past, we absolutely could control human minds on the battlefield via telepathy but then the new codex happened.

Now a specific mind control unit? I could see that happening actually.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Forgotten_Fleets#Horror_of_Icthiam

I loved the concept.... And don´t forget the Dakkarian Brain Slugs in the same page. And just to point it out, a minor species called Q´Orl are doing the same thing (the Brain Slug thing) to control Navigators, thus getting access to Warp travel.

 da001 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
I'd love if GW, at some point, launched a new edition with a boost to Nids and introduced new units that are essentially machines using a human host to control it. Machine Nids.

The Hive Mind is an absolute genius in terms of genetic manipulation and evolution, the race is difficult to deal with in the first place because it hyper-evolves and adapts quickly. I'm sure it could figure out a way to control a human brain, perhaps grow more advanced versions of ours, it's certainly absorbed enough humans.

In the past, we absolutely could control human minds on the battlefield via telepathy but then the new codex happened.

Now a specific mind control unit? I could see that happening actually.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Forgotten_Fleets#Horror_of_Icthiam

I loved the concept.... And don´t forget the Dakkarian Brain Slugs in the same page. And just to point it out, a minor species called Q´Orl are doing the same thing (the Brain Slug thing) to control Navigators, thus getting access to Warp travel.

I'd love it if GW gave us the Forgotten fleet units in a dataslate...but I'd also hate it because it means I'd have to pay more for DLC to make my army as flavorful as it should be.

My Tsundere feelings for GW know no bounds.

 Kain wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
I'd love if GW, at some point, launched a new edition with a boost to Nids and introduced new units that are essentially machines using a human host to control it. Machine Nids.

The Hive Mind is an absolute genius in terms of genetic manipulation and evolution, the race is difficult to deal with in the first place because it hyper-evolves and adapts quickly. I'm sure it could figure out a way to control a human brain, perhaps grow more advanced versions of ours, it's certainly absorbed enough humans.

In the past, we absolutely could control human minds on the battlefield via telepathy but then the new codex happened.

Now a specific mind control unit? I could see that happening actually.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Forgotten_Fleets#Horror_of_Icthiam

I loved the concept.... And don´t forget the Dakkarian Brain Slugs in the same page. And just to point it out, a minor species called Q´Orl are doing the same thing (the Brain Slug thing) to control Navigators, thus getting access to Warp travel.

I'd love it if GW gave us the Forgotten fleet units in a dataslate...but I'd also hate it because it means I'd have to pay more for DLC to make my army as flavorful as it should be.

My Tsundere feelings for GW know no bounds.

Soon the 100$ 'Hive-Tyrant-with-blue-hood' DLC will come, made just for you by GW.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
I'd love if GW, at some point, launched a new edition with a boost to Nids and introduced new units that are essentially machines using a human host to control it. Machine Nids.

The Hive Mind is an absolute genius in terms of genetic manipulation and evolution, the race is difficult to deal with in the first place because it hyper-evolves and adapts quickly. I'm sure it could figure out a way to control a human brain, perhaps grow more advanced versions of ours, it's certainly absorbed enough humans.

In the past, we absolutely could control human minds on the battlefield via telepathy but then the new codex happened.

Now a specific mind control unit? I could see that happening actually.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Forgotten_Fleets#Horror_of_Icthiam

I loved the concept.... And don´t forget the Dakkarian Brain Slugs in the same page. And just to point it out, a minor species called Q´Orl are doing the same thing (the Brain Slug thing) to control Navigators, thus getting access to Warp travel.

I'd love it if GW gave us the Forgotten fleet units in a dataslate...but I'd also hate it because it means I'd have to pay more for DLC to make my army as flavorful as it should be.

My Tsundere feelings for GW know no bounds.

Soon the 100$ 'Hive-Tyrant-with-blue-hood' DLC will come, made just for you by GW.

B-baka?

 Overread wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

No, it's the other way around. Machines are far superior to organic life when it comes to... well, everything. See, the thing about machines is that they are much easier to make, design and maintain. Say you wanted an organic door. You'd have to redesign a species's organic code from the ground up just to even design the damned thing. Then you'd have to grow it which takes a lot of energy to do. Then you'd have to keep feeding the door as long as you want to keep using it which wastes a lot more energy. A mechanical door requires you to do some drawings, cut some wood/forge some steel and install it onto the frame. It does take energy, yes, but much less than the organic door and you don't have to keep feeding it. The only energy you have to give it is the energy you impart on it as you operate it. You can also maintain a mechanical door with less fuss since you don't have to perform incredibly complex surgery to replace a knob.

But the hive mind can do all that very very easily. The Hive in itself is built to grow thing as they need them and can then render them down with very little expense of energy to get all the raw resources back. It's highly efficient. Sure if Humans were doing it at the genetic level then yes it might well be very hard; but for a creature born, raised and created for this purpose its as easy to them as breathing is to you.

A machine might do similar things and heck you could battle forever on what is the most efficient for a given point in time and technology; but at the end of the day you can't really say one is outright superior to the other in the 40K world.



AS for intelligence the Hive Mind appears to vary - on the one hand they've got genestealer cults who are basically as smart as humans; whilst on the other you've almost mindless rippers. I think that the key thing is not so much a measure of intelligence, but a matter of viewpoint. The Hive Mind and Tyranids have a different set of priorities and values and a different perception of the world to us. As a result they'll make choices that appear strange to us but which are very sound for them, For example Hive ships and fleets will fight each other - just to test out various DNA strains and whichever wins absorbs the other and continues on. We'd consider that a horrific waste to use our own troops in such a way; but for the Hive mind that is how it works.

And considering how much sheer damage they are capable of one cannot deny that its tactics are very effective.

You can also 3-d print guns, build ships out of paper-mache and use beer cans as housing material. It doesn't mean it is the most efficient way of doing things. I am not doubting the Hive Minds ability to craft things out of flesh. It has managed to figure out a way to do this very well. However, if the Tyranids poured as much effort into make mechanical technology they would be far, far better served. Biotech can do everything that machines can do. You are just pouring a lot more energy and resources than is necessary to achieve the same effect.

Also, making mechanical objects and then rendering them back down to raw materials is more efficient than doing it with fleshy material. You'd spend less energy rendering down the Lasguns than you would rendering down Termagants for raw material.

Mechanical objects are ultimately superior because they only perform the function you designed them for. Biotech requires not only the energy to operate them but extra energy to sustain the ojbect.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

No, it's the other way around. Machines are far superior to organic life when it comes to... well, everything. See, the thing about machines is that they are much easier to make, design and maintain. Say you wanted an organic door. You'd have to redesign a species's organic code from the ground up just to even design the damned thing. Then you'd have to grow it which takes a lot of energy to do. Then you'd have to keep feeding the door as long as you want to keep using it which wastes a lot more energy. A mechanical door requires you to do some drawings, cut some wood/forge some steel and install it onto the frame. It does take energy, yes, but much less than the organic door and you don't have to keep feeding it. The only energy you have to give it is the energy you impart on it as you operate it. You can also maintain a mechanical door with less fuss since you don't have to perform incredibly complex surgery to replace a knob.

But the hive mind can do all that very very easily. The Hive in itself is built to grow thing as they need them and can then render them down with very little expense of energy to get all the raw resources back. It's highly efficient. Sure if Humans were doing it at the genetic level then yes it might well be very hard; but for a creature born, raised and created for this purpose its as easy to them as breathing is to you.

A machine might do similar things and heck you could battle forever on what is the most efficient for a given point in time and technology; but at the end of the day you can't really say one is outright superior to the other in the 40K world.



AS for intelligence the Hive Mind appears to vary - on the one hand they've got genestealer cults who are basically as smart as humans; whilst on the other you've almost mindless rippers. I think that the key thing is not so much a measure of intelligence, but a matter of viewpoint. The Hive Mind and Tyranids have a different set of priorities and values and a different perception of the world to us. As a result they'll make choices that appear strange to us but which are very sound for them, For example Hive ships and fleets will fight each other - just to test out various DNA strains and whichever wins absorbs the other and continues on. We'd consider that a horrific waste to use our own troops in such a way; but for the Hive mind that is how it works.

And considering how much sheer damage they are capable of one cannot deny that its tactics are very effective.

You can also 3-d print guns, build ships out of paper-mache and use beer cans as housing material. It doesn't mean it is the most efficient way of doing things. I am not doubting the Hive Minds ability to craft things out of flesh. It has managed to figure out a way to do this very well. However, if the Tyranids poured as much effort into make mechanical technology they would be far, far better served. Biotech can do everything that machines can do. You are just pouring a lot more energy and resources than is necessary to achieve the same effect.

Also, making mechanical objects and then rendering them back down to raw materials is more efficient than doing it with fleshy material. You'd spend less energy rendering down the Lasguns than you would rendering down Termagants for raw material.

Mechanical objects are ultimately superior because they only perform the function you designed them for. Biotech requires not only the energy to operate them but extra energy to sustain the ojbect.

You're getting your science into my Wazdakkka ramping off a cliff, smashing through a void shield then a warlord titan's cockpit, then killing the crew of said titan while on fire and keeping their skulls which are still on fire years later.

 Kain wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

No, it's the other way around. Machines are far superior to organic life when it comes to... well, everything. See, the thing about machines is that they are much easier to make, design and maintain. Say you wanted an organic door. You'd have to redesign a species's organic code from the ground up just to even design the damned thing. Then you'd have to grow it which takes a lot of energy to do. Then you'd have to keep feeding the door as long as you want to keep using it which wastes a lot more energy. A mechanical door requires you to do some drawings, cut some wood/forge some steel and install it onto the frame. It does take energy, yes, but much less than the organic door and you don't have to keep feeding it. The only energy you have to give it is the energy you impart on it as you operate it. You can also maintain a mechanical door with less fuss since you don't have to perform incredibly complex surgery to replace a knob.

But the hive mind can do all that very very easily. The Hive in itself is built to grow thing as they need them and can then render them down with very little expense of energy to get all the raw resources back. It's highly efficient. Sure if Humans were doing it at the genetic level then yes it might well be very hard; but for a creature born, raised and created for this purpose its as easy to them as breathing is to you.

A machine might do similar things and heck you could battle forever on what is the most efficient for a given point in time and technology; but at the end of the day you can't really say one is outright superior to the other in the 40K world.



AS for intelligence the Hive Mind appears to vary - on the one hand they've got genestealer cults who are basically as smart as humans; whilst on the other you've almost mindless rippers. I think that the key thing is not so much a measure of intelligence, but a matter of viewpoint. The Hive Mind and Tyranids have a different set of priorities and values and a different perception of the world to us. As a result they'll make choices that appear strange to us but which are very sound for them, For example Hive ships and fleets will fight each other - just to test out various DNA strains and whichever wins absorbs the other and continues on. We'd consider that a horrific waste to use our own troops in such a way; but for the Hive mind that is how it works.

And considering how much sheer damage they are capable of one cannot deny that its tactics are very effective.

You can also 3-d print guns, build ships out of paper-mache and use beer cans as housing material. It doesn't mean it is the most efficient way of doing things. I am not doubting the Hive Minds ability to craft things out of flesh. It has managed to figure out a way to do this very well. However, if the Tyranids poured as much effort into make mechanical technology they would be far, far better served. Biotech can do everything that machines can do. You are just pouring a lot more energy and resources than is necessary to achieve the same effect.

Also, making mechanical objects and then rendering them back down to raw materials is more efficient than doing it with fleshy material. You'd spend less energy rendering down the Lasguns than you would rendering down Termagants for raw material.

Mechanical objects are ultimately superior because they only perform the function you designed them for. Biotech requires not only the energy to operate them but extra energy to sustain the ojbect.

You're getting your science into my Wazdakkka ramping off a cliff, smashing through a void shield then a warlord titan's cockpit, then killing the crew of said titan while on fire and keeping their skulls which are still on fire years later.

*Points at Da001 and Overread* They started it!

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

No, it's the other way around. Machines are far superior to organic life when it comes to... well, everything. See, the thing about machines is that they are much easier to make, design and maintain. Say you wanted an organic door. You'd have to redesign a species's organic code from the ground up just to even design the damned thing. Then you'd have to grow it which takes a lot of energy to do. Then you'd have to keep feeding the door as long as you want to keep using it which wastes a lot more energy. A mechanical door requires you to do some drawings, cut some wood/forge some steel and install it onto the frame. It does take energy, yes, but much less than the organic door and you don't have to keep feeding it. The only energy you have to give it is the energy you impart on it as you operate it. You can also maintain a mechanical door with less fuss since you don't have to perform incredibly complex surgery to replace a knob.

But the hive mind can do all that very very easily. The Hive in itself is built to grow thing as they need them and can then render them down with very little expense of energy to get all the raw resources back. It's highly efficient. Sure if Humans were doing it at the genetic level then yes it might well be very hard; but for a creature born, raised and created for this purpose its as easy to them as breathing is to you.

A machine might do similar things and heck you could battle forever on what is the most efficient for a given point in time and technology; but at the end of the day you can't really say one is outright superior to the other in the 40K world.



AS for intelligence the Hive Mind appears to vary - on the one hand they've got genestealer cults who are basically as smart as humans; whilst on the other you've almost mindless rippers. I think that the key thing is not so much a measure of intelligence, but a matter of viewpoint. The Hive Mind and Tyranids have a different set of priorities and values and a different perception of the world to us. As a result they'll make choices that appear strange to us but which are very sound for them, For example Hive ships and fleets will fight each other - just to test out various DNA strains and whichever wins absorbs the other and continues on. We'd consider that a horrific waste to use our own troops in such a way; but for the Hive mind that is how it works.

And considering how much sheer damage they are capable of one cannot deny that its tactics are very effective.

You can also 3-d print guns, build ships out of paper-mache and use beer cans as housing material. It doesn't mean it is the most efficient way of doing things. I am not doubting the Hive Minds ability to craft things out of flesh. It has managed to figure out a way to do this very well. However, if the Tyranids poured as much effort into make mechanical technology they would be far, far better served. Biotech can do everything that machines can do. You are just pouring a lot more energy and resources than is necessary to achieve the same effect.

Also, making mechanical objects and then rendering them back down to raw materials is more efficient than doing it with fleshy material. You'd spend less energy rendering down the Lasguns than you would rendering down Termagants for raw material.

Mechanical objects are ultimately superior because they only perform the function you designed them for. Biotech requires not only the energy to operate them but extra energy to sustain the ojbect.

You're getting your science into my Wazdakkka ramping off a cliff, smashing through a void shield then a warlord titan's cockpit, then killing the crew of said titan while on fire and keeping their skulls which are still on fire years later.

*Points at Da001 and Overread* They started it!

No science in my scifi.

Only meaningless technobabble.

Fine. I will not talk about how bad biotech is. No matter how many people try to disprove my point with pseudo science, no matter what bad ideas are bandied about and no matter how many people say that mechanical technology is inferior I will not comment on it. I will not touch it. I will not taste it! I will just hate on the Tyranids in other, less intelligent ways.

The Hive Mind isn't very smart because it's wasting it's resources by sending its forces anywhere but Terra.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Fine. I will not talk about how bad biotech is. No matter how many people try to disprove my point with pseudo science, no matter what bad ideas are bandied about and no matter how many people say that mechanical technology is inferior I will not comment on it. I will not touch it. I will not taste it! I will just hate on the Tyranids in other, less intelligent ways.

The Hive Mind isn't very smart because it's wasting it's resources by sending its forces anywhere but Terra.

To get at Terra you first need to weaken the support structure around it if you want to make the job as easy as possible.

Even Abaddon recognizes if he just tried to bumrush it he'd get squashed.

The Hive Mind is likely working to destroy that logistical base supporting Terra so that it can consume the Emperor with a much more easily dealt coup de gras.

Not with the resources the Hive Mind has. Besides, if it really concentrate its forces there they could easily block out psychic communications and warp travel. Maybe even darken the Astronomicon which would severely weaken the Imperium. Overwhelming application of force is what the Tyranids do best.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not with the resources the Hive Mind has. Besides, if it really concentrate its forces there they could easily block out psychic communications and warp travel. Maybe even darken the Astronomicon which would severaly weaken the Imperium. Overwhelming application of force is what the Tyranids do best.

America vastly outstripped Panama in terms of resources it could afford to deploy and still took every precaution in it's brief conflict with it to minimize the amount of effort needed to accomplish it's goals.

One of the prizes of Terra is the genes of the Emperor himself, humanity has already long eroded the useful biomass of Terra by the time of the 42nd millenium's onset, so the benefits are silencing the astronomicon and of course; getting to eat the most powerful human psyker to have ever lived and one of two confirmed perpetuals who is still kicking.

Why spend effort in a bumrush when you can strip away resistance and then take an easy prize at the end?

In addition, this method not only weakens the logistical capacity of the Imperium, but also erodes it's morale. So that when the time comes to deal the final blow, the Imperium is already thoroughly crushed by despair and hopelessness.

The Hive Mind has a clear understanding of psychological warfare and the importance of morale in an enemy's ability to fight back.

So the scout fleets' actions in the galaxy are essentially the Deathleaper on a very big scale.

That one cardinal is Terra, his sanity is mankind's will to fight the inevitable, his world's defenses are the Imperium's physical capacity to wage war, his world is the Imperium.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not with the resources the Hive Mind has. Besides, if it really concentrate its forces there they could easily block out psychic communications and warp travel. Maybe even darken the Astronomicon which would severaly weaken the Imperium. Overwhelming application of force is what the Tyranids do best.

I think you're hinting at the key points here. The Hive Mind, as far as I can tell, has no strategic goals or purposes. In terms of strategic thinking, its essentially an idiot. The Hive Fleets seem to focus entirely on finding the best resources without recognizing things as political entities or bodies. It doesn't even seem to have a reasonable appreciation for its own resources. The Hive Mind isn't targeting Terra because it doesn't get the concept of an empire. Its not looking for the knockout blow because its not at war with the Imperium---like a good predator, its just hunting for its next meal. Even in the gray operational realm, the Hive Mind doesn't really ever show any genius or knack. It doesn't plan campaigns in the human sense with military goals in mind. I have yet to see any evidence of it bypassing a fortified planet to snack on a less well defended neighbor.

On the tactical level though, the hive mind is the ultimate genius. It recognizes the tactics being employed against it and counters them with ruthless efficiency. Its adaptibility and unsurpassed ability to command and control small units make it the most dangerous foe on the battlefield for any army.

I think the way to view the Hive Mind is as a strict predator. Finish one meal, look for the next.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not with the resources the Hive Mind has. Besides, if it really concentrate its forces there they could easily block out psychic communications and warp travel. Maybe even darken the Astronomicon which would severaly weaken the Imperium. Overwhelming application of force is what the Tyranids do best.

I think you're hinting at the key points here. The Hive Mind, as far as I can tell, has no strategic goals or purposes. In terms of strategic thinking, its essentially an idiot. The Hive Fleets seem to focus entirely on finding the best resources without recognizing things as political entities or bodies. It doesn't even seem to have a reasonable appreciation for its own resources. The Hive Mind isn't targeting Terra because it doesn't get the concept of an empire. Its not looking for the knockout blow because its not at war with the Imperium---like a good predator, its just hunting for its next meal. Even in the gray operational realm, the Hive Mind doesn't really ever show any genius or knack. It doesn't plan campaigns in the human sense with military goals in mind. I have yet to see any evidence of it bypassing a fortified planet to snack on a less well defended neighbor.

On the tactical level though, the hive mind is the ultimate genius. It recognizes the tactics being employed against it and counters them with ruthless efficiency. Its adaptibility and unsurpassed ability to command and control small units make it the most dangerous foe on the battlefield for any army.

I think the way to view the Hive Mind is as a strict predator. Finish one meal, look for the next.

Alright, that makes sense. The Hive Mind isn't the master architect of a plan too grand for us to comprehend. It's plans are incomprehensible because it has no overall goal other than to eat. I can agree with that.

It might be easier to think that the Hive mind regards the living organisms on the planets like fleas or ticks on a juicy bit of food. It's a pest at best and to be wiped away by its immune system of warriors and monsters.

We don't even have any idea how much value a Hive fleet has to the Hive mind. The fluff for them suggests that they've eaten at least one, if not more, whole galaxies; as such the loss of a Hive fleet might be like if you lost a nail - annoying but really not all that important and you'll grow it back quickly anyway.



Also the real fact we can walk away from is that TheCustomLimeMade is BORG

 TheCustomLime wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not with the resources the Hive Mind has. Besides, if it really concentrate its forces there they could easily block out psychic communications and warp travel. Maybe even darken the Astronomicon which would severaly weaken the Imperium. Overwhelming application of force is what the Tyranids do best.

I think you're hinting at the key points here. The Hive Mind, as far as I can tell, has no strategic goals or purposes. In terms of strategic thinking, its essentially an idiot. The Hive Fleets seem to focus entirely on finding the best resources without recognizing things as political entities or bodies. It doesn't even seem to have a reasonable appreciation for its own resources. The Hive Mind isn't targeting Terra because it doesn't get the concept of an empire. Its not looking for the knockout blow because its not at war with the Imperium---like a good predator, its just hunting for its next meal. Even in the gray operational realm, the Hive Mind doesn't really ever show any genius or knack. It doesn't plan campaigns in the human sense with military goals in mind. I have yet to see any evidence of it bypassing a fortified planet to snack on a less well defended neighbor.

On the tactical level though, the hive mind is the ultimate genius. It recognizes the tactics being employed against it and counters them with ruthless efficiency. Its adaptibility and unsurpassed ability to command and control small units make it the most dangerous foe on the battlefield for any army.

I think the way to view the Hive Mind is as a strict predator. Finish one meal, look for the next.

Alright, that makes sense. The Hive Mind isn't the master architect of a plan too grand for us to comprehend. It's plans are incomprehensible because it has no overall goal other than to eat. I can agree with that.

Makes sense to me too. In a completely non-scientific way, of course. References to how microbial intelligence (which clearly applies here, on a galactic level) is similar to neural networks (both natural and artificial) and the shocking revelations that traumatize you forever when relating this knowledge to how our own brain works (like in: are we a software construct created by the neurons inside our head? are we a hive mind, a collective intelligence deluding itself through the implementation of an ego?) are to be avoided at all costs.

And it is also the way I think the Chaos Gods work in the setting.

I have come to grips with that a long time ago. In fact, I think it kind of cool. I will also not comment on rumors that I am a borg as they are completely unfounded.

I dont think the Hive Mind works like a human mind does. I think it is very reptilian in nature.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
. I think it is very reptilian in nature.

I wouldn't be surprised if its a mix of reptile, insect and fish (with a dash of bird).