Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I guess we need to back things up to where this originally started. The original statement you responded to when you said I wasn't giving enough credit to their original design was me saying "one major problem with them is yada yada yada".

In this regards, whether or not their design was meant to be narrow is a rather moot point in retrospect. It doesn't change the fact that it's a major problem with them (in my opinion). "Major problem" in this context means "Obstacle to them getting a full codex".

Of course, one could extrapolate that this "major problem" (my opinion) extends to the Space Wolves and GK, but again, in my opinion, that's not a problem for them because they're supplements anyways. It's easy to slap together a "proper codex" for a narrow-focus'd army when many of their units are basically variants of another codex. The sisters don't get that. If it ever becomes a problem for the wolves and Grey Knights, they can just be rolled into the larger codex like Black Templars were. I don't imagine that to be necessary though because they have a large enough fanbase as it is, such is the "popularity power" of Space Marines and their units are diverged enough from the parent units (again, the way all supplements should have been) but eh, you never know.

Now do the sisters have enough popularity power to warrant GW expanding their codex without any significant changes to make them less narrow focused? For that I'd need a few more questions answered, such as "How popular are sisters right now anyways compared to the main armies?", and "Does a lot of their popularity stem from their zealotry, or does it stem from them being female?" combined with "If it's primarily from the latter, would they even be MORE popular if they were more broad ranged but still female?" Of course, one needs to throw in a "If so, how to do this without the whole "female-only" thing being their primary feature, because that would be sexist and wrong?" (in actuality, they do have males in their army. Priests, yo, and battle conclaves. IMHO Fateris Militia and all ranks of the Ecclesiarchy like cardinals really should be added in too if they ever get a full codex army. Yes, SoB are separate from the Ecclesiarchy but that's the only way we'll ever get the rest of the Ecclesiarchy on the table top since the Ecclesiarchy isn't allowed to have men-under-arms for their own separate army. Current SoB are already a combination of SoB and Ecclesiarchy anyways, considering the priests and battle conclaves.).

 Redbeard wrote:

da001 wrote:Until quite recently,...

Yeah, whatever. I'm not a newb, I'm just willing to accept that the story is actually better with ancient robotic dynasties with their own internal feuds than the ridiculous necron backstory from 3rd.

...And the Imperium was utterly brutal and xenophobic to stupid levels, starting with the marines.

Here's the thing about extreme xenophobia - it doesn't survive first contact. That's why you have an inquisition running around needing to punish anyone who talks to aliens (and only aliens we don't like, and don't need, because remember, Rogue Traders are allowed to treat with the filthy xenos, and we have jokaero running around with the inquisitors too).

Extreme Xenophobia survives first contact if it is mixed with propaganda, blind fanaticism, total war and genocide attempts. It actually gets stronger.

Anyway, the uncompromising "there is only war", while silly, was part of the setting.... a Necron & Astartes alliance, let alone Astartes & Tau being described as battle brothers, was unthinkable not long ago. "To be purged, that is the fate of the Xeno" and all that.

And I knew you are not a newb, sorry if I implied that. But I think you are somehow "forgetting" how shocking it was for most fans to see Necrons and Blood Angels working together all of a sudden.

(...)
The funny thing about this is that some of us actually have GW female commisar and GW female space marine models. It's one thing to retcon a story where there's really no evidence that things used to be different. Turning the necrons from a race of mindless soulless killers into a race of ancient re-awakened robots with dynastic tendencies didn't actually impact any of the models.

Wait wait what? Female space marine models? Link? Please?

I got some background from old that includes female Space Marines, but never found an official model.

 Troike wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
They are their "own army" in name, only. Fluff-wise and crunch-wise, they're supplements. Really really big and diversified supplements, more so than the actual supplements that would follow, but still supplements in all but name. Thus you won't see Space Wolf supplements because they're already a supplement, even if not officially, and that's fine.

I don't think you're getting my point.

Okay, a person goes out and buys a SW codex and builds a SW army. They are playing SWs, a faction with their own distinct fluff, and a faction in which customisation is limited. They are not playing vanilla Marines, the vanilla Marines are unrelated to this person's SW army in that they are a seperate army with their own codex and fluff. Yes, the SW are Marine variants, but the end effect is the same as with the Sisters: a faction with a tigher focus than most.

Nope.

I cannot speak for TiamatRoar, but I see your point, yet I disagree. For me it goes like this: "Okay, a person goes out and buys a SW codex and builds a SW army, which is one of the many subfactions of Space Marines. They are playing SWs, a subfaction which fluff is basic Space Marines fluff with a few additions, and a subfaction in which, being a highly specific customization of a previously existing army, further customisation is, of course, limited. They are not playing vanilla Marines, but something really close, the vanilla Marines are mostly the same to this person's SW army in that they are the original army they came from, with their own codex that is mostly a copy-paste of the "parent-faction" and fluff, which is 99% Space Marines fluff, plus a few traits. Yes, the SW are Marine variants, but the end effect is the same as with the Sisters: a faction with a tigher focus than most. Only that Sisters ARE a different faction, not a variant. "

From a non marine perspective, SW and, say, White Scars are nearly one and the same. And WS and IF. And SW and Salamanders. They have a trait, sure, and a distinctive feeling. But the army is 99% identical in units, fluff and game style.

By the way I collect and play both SW and vanilla (and others). I think it is cool that they expand a faction. But the result is a subfaction, not a full faction that need further development when many factions are ignored.

 da001 wrote:

Anyway, the uncompromising "there is only war", while silly, was part of the setting.... a Necron & Astartes alliance, let alone Astartes & Tau being described as battle brothers, was unthinkable not long ago. "To be purged, that is the fate of the Xeno" and all that.

And I knew you are not a newb, sorry if I implied that. But I think you are somehow "forgetting" how shocking it was for most fans to see Necrons and Blood Angels working together all of a sudden.

To be fair, Eldar and the Imperium actually got along better at first in the old fluff than they do now, if I recall correctly. Although relations were portrayed as much worse for a long time before the Tau and Necron-BA alliance came about.

 da001 wrote:
and a subfaction in which, being a highly specific customization of a previously existing army, further customisation is, of course, limited.

TiamatRoar wrote:
It doesn't change the fact that it's a major problem with them (in my opinion). "Major problem" in this context means "Obstacle to them getting a full codex".

Well, and that's my point. We do have these codexes with more limited scopes in terms of how customisable they are. They were made as their own seperate thing by GW, who apparently saw this lack of customisability as no obstacle. To get back to the original point, i don't think that a narrow focus is so crippling as you're saying. Pretty sure that their fluff isn't a factor in the Sisters being held up. As for limiting them as an army, I'm pointing to the SW and GK to show that the Sisters aren't alone in this regard, and that such armies can certainly enjoy popularity and success. Of course, it's ultimately going to be a matter of personal preference on whether the way the SoB fluff works helps or hinder's one's enjoyment of them, but that's fine. Everyone has different tastes.

As I've said, I do think that the Sisters have some room for some expansion and more customisability within the framework of their more ridgid focus. I think that it would happen naturally upon them recieving more development, in fact.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Of course, one could extrapolate that this "major problem" (my opinion) extends to the Space Wolves and GK

Well, of course it does. Going just by the fluff, you're limited to one paintscheme and mindset and faction. There's comparatively very little room to put your own spin on things.

TiamatRoar wrote:
or does it stem from them being female?" combined with "If it's primarily from the latter, would they even be MORE popular if they were more broad ranged but still female?" Of course, one needs to throw in a "If so, how to do this without the whole "female-only" thing being their primary feature, because that would be sexist and wrong?"

Well, just my opinion... But I think that GW is fairly set on who the Sisters are as an army. The religious fanatic angle is very deeply ingrained into them, and, perhaps more crucially, fits into 40K's grimdark too.

TiamatRoar wrote:
To be fair, Eldar and the Imperium actually got along better at first in the old fluff than they do now, if I recall correctly.

They got along well enough for children to be made, in fact. And those children could go on to serve in the Imperium.

Unless you weren't talking about quite that far back.

Yea, okay, I suppose "Major problem" might be overstating it (I didn't mean it as CRIPPLING problem regardless, though). But I do think something should be done to broaden them up a little if they ever get a main codex. Maybe it doesn't have to actually be the root though (I can think of several tertiary units that would allow one to divulge a bit in their armies without affecting the sisters' root zealotry for example. Frateris Milia, Ecclesiarchs, Living Saints, and other attached Ecclesiarchy assets, etc, could all be varied if GW bothered. Again, such things would be more suitable for an Ecclesiarchy army by itself but such a thing should not exist as per the fluff and they're already rolled up into SoB right now)

GW at least makes it clear you're supposed to be able to diversify them (with statements such as each of them having their own minor traditions). As it stands, I still think they're more narrow than they should be for a full army though. Thinking about it further though, that might also be because GW simply hasn't bothered focusing on them. Even Knights got some variety added to them when they got their own codex without having to change their base design so sisters might get the same if they ever get more fleshed out by GW. ...not that the knight codex was a real codex either but it had a hell of a lot of fluff, including the companion book..

 Troike wrote:

Unless you weren't talking about quite that far back.

lol, nope. I think we can safely say most people don't consider those days when thinking about what 40k is. But even aftter those days, there were things like the Battle of Tallarm where they actually explicitly traded "vows of friendship". You just don't see that any more.

I don't really hate any of them.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Wait, they retconned female commissars who we know to exist?

Lame.

Did they really do that? Again, even Only War has them. If GW went out of their way to state they were all-male in the latest guard codex, then that's just... lame.

....well, even if the Sisters of Battle weren't shoehorned in because they're female (again, I believe they were shoehorned in because of Dune), GW is clearly sexist.

I read through militium temsptus which has the best info on the schola I can find and there's no evidance at all that Commissars would only be male. That said I think it's reasonable to conclude that it's not as common the kind of individual whom would make a good commissar would, in most cases, likely also make a good member of the sisters. so it makes sense for female stormtroopers and commissars to not be as prevalent as the male colleges. the SoBs are almost certinly taking the cream of the crop there

 da001 wrote:

The funny thing about this is that some of us actually have GW female commisar and GW female space marine models. It's one thing to retcon a story where there's really no evidence that things used to be different. Turning the necrons from a race of mindless soulless killers into a race of ancient re-awakened robots with dynastic tendencies didn't actually impact any of the models.

Wait wait what? Female space marine models? Link? Please?

 Redbeard wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:

The funny thing about this is that some of us actually have GW female commisar and GW female space marine models. It's one thing to retcon a story where there's really no evidence that things used to be different. Turning the necrons from a race of mindless soulless killers into a race of ancient re-awakened robots with dynastic tendencies didn't actually impact any of the models.

Wait wait what? Female space marine models? Link? Please?

Here's a link to a blog mentioning them, with photos of the original catalog page that included them:
http://www.spikeybitsblog.com/2013/12/original-female-space-marines-40k.html

I have the one on the left.

Thank you very much.

I am bookmarking that for my next "no female marines ever" discussion.

I hate Jews, of course. Are there still Jews in 40k's IOM ?
I am just kidding, of course (my own mother is Jewish), but really we need to stop talking about races and start using either factions or species, depending on what we actually mean. Because even out of context, if OP had used either of those words, the title would still be perfectly appropriate. Currently, it is not.

I find the Space Wolves fluff very silly and annoying. With Wolfy Wolf McWolf using his Wolf Claw Fang of Grey Wolfiness. And, to a lesser degree, many marine fluff is annoying too.

 Wulfmar wrote:
I hate... this race:

Spoiler:

I hate stupid fanservicy artworks made by some manchild for menchildren too ! I do not think they can be considered a race though. It is more like some some disease that transcend all races.

MarsNZ wrote:
Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people.

You would have a point, if eldars did not have boobplate. It happens they not only do have boobplate, but also usually get skintight armor.

TiamatRoar wrote:
more than two wrongs when you consider the lack of […] Inquisitor female models.

They had some. I use one as a priest. It feature very silly haircut .

TiamatRoar wrote:
Or... any female models besides Eldar and scantily clad Dark Eldar)

There is Shadowsun. She is pretty cool. When not drawn by a fanservicy manchild anyway.

I find Space Marines super bland and boring, just a simple juvenile superman fantasy without any features. And all their talk of brother love is quite annoying. Happens, when you only have men around you for hundreds of years

After starting 40k with Tyranids, I lost interest for several years. Tau brought me back because they are the only faction that doesn't want to kill everything in sight. If every faction is just mindless maniacs running amok, the universe become bland and boring.

MarsNZ wrote: wrote:Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people.

Sadly, GW sculptor think that men and women share the same body, they just add boobs. Ther is only one lower body for male and female Eldar.
This is their idea of an Eldar woman:

 Kroothawk wrote:

Sadly, GW sculptor think that men and women share the same body, they just add boobs. Ther is only one lower body for male and female Eldar.
This is their idea of an Eldar woman:

I think it's perfectly legitimate for an Eldar woman... they never said they had to be attractive women. It's a diet of computer games and artwork that leads people to think females in games should be thinner / slinkier and generally curvier.


A night out to a Brighton night club will show you otherwise...

 Kroothawk wrote:
I find Space Marines super bland and boring, just a simple juvenile superman fantasy without any features. And all their talk of brother love is quite annoying. Happens, when you only have men around you for hundreds of years

After starting 40k with Tyranids, I lost interest for several years. Tau brought me back because they are the only faction that doesn't want to kill everything in sight. If every faction is just mindless maniacs running amok, the universe become bland and boring.

MarsNZ wrote: wrote:Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people.

Sadly, GW sculptor think that men and women share the same body, they just add boobs. Ther is only one lower body for male and female Eldar.
This is their idea of an Eldar woman:

I feel bad for you that you clearly have not delved into the black library fluff, yes even chaos don't always want to fight in the night lords books, the dark angels take a look at themselves in the angels of darkness book (and it's sequel), go look for these books and the eisenhorn series to change your view on several 40k factions

Grey knights, before the update they're were awesome, they were this secretive bunch we barely knew anything about but knew they were complete and utter cut throats in their belief.
Now? they're like standard space marines with a big action man toy as a centre piece

Hey look. Once again, a perfectly good conversation is ruined by SJWs. Joy.

On topic: I'm not a fan of the ultramarines. Their whole shtick seems to be, "best of the best of the best marines" while still being Jack of all trades master of none, in a codex that basically exemplifies that concept.

What race do I hate the most?

Car races. I think they're pointless. At least until a tire blows causing the car to flip into the stand and explode killing the spectators.

Tau. I'd be fine with them if they were a larger faction, but they shouldn't exist on their scale, or even matter, they're too small. We shouldn't be hearing anything about them, just them getting steamrolled due to being so pathetically small. But because they're small, they can't lose, so somehow they win against Tyranids and bog down Imperial Crusades.

I have siad this before, and I will say it again until the day I stop using this forum.

 dementedwombat wrote:
I am warning you, there is a serious level of simmering anger behind this post. Might not want to read it unless you're willing to live with that.

Eldar. I absolutely hate them. For one because I hate elves on principle, smug pointy eared bastards (and elder are basically space elves) but for another because of how many "free passes" they get from a lot of people about so many things.

One of the classic complaints I hear about Tau is that they look "too anime". The Eldar wraith lord has bloody sandals and a katana darn it! Plus Eldar aspect warriors are basically Power Ranges. They have random crystals thrown everywhere on their weapons and shoot sparkly rainbow beams at their enemies.Their infantry weapon is a shuriken cannon! Never have I ever heard people complaining that Eldar look "too anime" unless it's a Tau player specifically pointing this out in response to people complaining about our army.

People complain about Draigo being over the top and a complete fluff travesty all the time. Let me introduce you to a guy named Maugan Ra. He single handedly walked into the eye of terror, pulled his craft-world out of it, then decided to run over and kill an entire hive fleet by himself. Do people complain about this being over the top and ridiculous? No!

Finally people complain about Necrons stealing the Eldar's thunder as "the advanced oldest race". Well, in my opinion the Eldar don't count. You know why? Because their "ancient empire" is now the Eye of Terror. They were so messed up that they created a Chaos God. You know how incompetent the Imperium of Man is in 40k? Their empire is still around. Eldar are worse than them. Now an ancient empire that actually had its gak together enough to not rip the universe open on top of their homeworld are starting to emerge and people think they are stealing the Eldar's place. The Eldar don't deserve their place. Let the Necrons have it.

I just wish the last Craft World would die in a fire so those incredibly arrogant remains of a dying race would finally fade into obscurity and leave us in peace.

I strongly dislike the Dark Eldar, probably because of my failed attempt to play them. Aside from that, the only other army I dislike is the Daemons, but only because they shouldnt really be an army in there own right, thats not how chaos rolls.
My favorite would have to be the tyranids, for being the only really xeno xeno.

I'm a fan of all races, but to me the most annoying are the Space Marines.... why? Because they're everywhere!!

Space Marines- pretty much any faction. It's like rooting for the New York Yankees.

And at the end of the day, I'd prefer regular humans taking care of themselves.

 da001 wrote:

I cannot speak for TiamatRoar, but I see your point, yet I disagree. For me it goes like this: "Okay, a person goes out and buys a SW codex and builds a SW army, which is one of the many subfactions of Space Marines. They are playing SWs, a subfaction which fluff is basic Space Marines fluff with a few additions, and a subfaction in which, being a highly specific customization of a previously existing army, further customisation is, of course, limited. They are not playing vanilla Marines, but something really close, the vanilla Marines are mostly the same to this person's SW army in that they are the original army they came from, with their own codex that is mostly a copy-paste of the "parent-faction" and fluff, which is 99% Space Marines fluff, plus a few traits. Yes, the SW are Marine variants, but the end effect is the same as with the Sisters: a faction with a tigher focus than most. Only that Sisters ARE a different faction, not a variant. "

From a non marine perspective, SW and, say, White Scars are nearly one and the same. And WS and IF. And SW and Salamanders. They have a trait, sure, and a distinctive feeling. But the army is 99% identical in units, fluff and game style.

By the way I collect and play both SW and vanilla (and others). I think it is cool that they expand a faction. But the result is a subfaction, not a full faction that need further development when many factions are ignored.

Everybody always seems to forget that the SW aren't the subfaction. They never were. The first Marine Codex released way back in 2nd edition was *not* the vanilla marine codex. It was the Space Wolf Codex. They've always been their own army, even before "regular" Marines were (and that Codex wasn't a Codex: Space Marines, either; it was Codex: Ultramarines).

As to the OP, the race I hate the most are Necrons (both new and old). With the technological power supposedly at these guys' disposal, how are the other factions still there?
Plus, the only way their background can be described is as superlatives over other factions. "They're an ancient race, fallen from grace, like the eldar, but moreso." "They're a technologically advanced race, like the eldar and the tau, only moreso." To stupid-good levels.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 da001 wrote:
(...)
From a non marine perspective, SW and, say, White Scars are nearly one and the same. And WS and IF. And SW and Salamanders. They have a trait, sure, and a distinctive feeling. But the army is 99% identical in units, fluff and game style.

By the way I collect and play both SW and vanilla (and others). I think it is cool that they expand a faction. But the result is a subfaction, not a full faction that need further development when many factions are ignored.

Everybody always seems to forget that the SW aren't the subfaction. They never were. The first Marine Codex released way back in 2nd edition was *not* the vanilla marine codex. It was the Space Wolf Codex. They've always been their own army, even before "regular" Marines were (and that Codex wasn't a Codex: Space Marines, either; it was Codex: Ultramarines). (...)

There was a time when there were no Codexes. The First Edition.
Look here:
Right at Ultramarine´s side. By the way I played Flesh Eaters then. Flesh Eaters, Flesh Tearers, White Scars, Space Wolves... all of them shared 100% of the rules.

Space Wolves were Space Marines then.

Even more important: they still are. You are saying the same as Troike: "since they got a Codex, they are a faction". Following that reasoning, the Sentinels of Terra or the Legion of the Damned are full factions too. I don´t think they are.

If all Space Wolves are Space Marines, and 90% of any Wolf Codex is copy-pasted from SM Codex, then they are a Space Marine subfaction. It doesn´t matter that, due to marketing, they got a Codex that is almost identical to the core rules they shared before (first edition, in this case).

I am a background-player. Marketing (how much a Codex sell or even the existence of a separate Codex) do not seem relevant to me to determine what a faction is.

Other examples: Adeptus Arbites or Mechanicus, as well as Hrud, Lost and the Damned or Exodites, are full factions too. They just lack a Codex.

I hate the Tau, I just feel they've been shoehorned into the setting. What I really hate are Tau players that believe the fluff at a surface level, and that they're not another bunch of controlling bastards. Also the fact they barely ever loose, and the way this is justified simply through them using apparently more advanced tactics than everyone else.

 Banzaimash wrote:
I hate the Tau, I just feel they've been shoehorned into the setting. What I really hate are Tau players that believe the fluff at a surface level, and that they're not another bunch of controlling bastards. Also the fact they barely ever loose, and the way this is justified simply through them using apparently more advanced tactics than everyone else.

I love that kind of player, becuase that means that it worked. They've believed the propaganda

 da001 wrote:

Right at Ultramarine´s side. By the way I played Flesh Eaters then. Flesh Eaters, Flesh Tearers, White Scars, Space Wolves... all of them shared 100% of the rules.

Space Wolves were Space Marines then.

Even more important: they still are. You are saying the same as Troike: "since they got a Codex, they are a faction". Following that reasoning, the Sentinels of Terra or the Legion of the Damned are full factions too. I don´t think they are.

If all Space Wolves are Space Marines, and 90% of any Wolf Codex is copy-pasted from SM Codex, then they are a Space Marine subfaction. It doesn´t matter that, due to marketing, they got a Codex that is almost identical to the core rules they shared before (first edition, in this case).

I am a background-player. Marketing (how much a Codex sell or even the existence of a separate Codex) do not seem relevant to me to determine what a faction is.

Other examples: Adeptus Arbites or Mechanicus, as well as Hrud, Lost and the Damned or Exodites, are full factions too. They just lack a Codex.

Wasn't first edition when eldar could run around with bolters, and marines could have shuriken weaponry?
No, I am saying that since they got the *first* Codex, it's disingenuous to say that they're a subset of another faction who got their own book only afterwards.
And the basic marine statline for Grey Hunters, some equipment options and a few vehicles isn't anywhere near 90% of the SM Codex.

Even from a background perspective, the Wolves are their own army; they do not follow the Codex, and have their own (nearly) independent realm (Ironically, much like the Ultramarines).

Bran Dawri wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Right at Ultramarine´s side. By the way I played Flesh Eaters then. Flesh Eaters, Flesh Tearers, White Scars, Space Wolves... all of them shared 100% of the rules.

Space Wolves were Space Marines then.

Even more important: they still are. You are saying the same as Troike: "since they got a Codex, they are a faction". Following that reasoning, the Sentinels of Terra or the Legion of the Damned are full factions too. I don´t think they are.

If all Space Wolves are Space Marines, and 90% of any Wolf Codex is copy-pasted from SM Codex, then they are a Space Marine subfaction. It doesn´t matter that, due to marketing, they got a Codex that is almost identical to the core rules they shared before (first edition, in this case).

I am a background-player. Marketing (how much a Codex sell or even the existence of a separate Codex) do not seem relevant to me to determine what a faction is.

Other examples: Adeptus Arbites or Mechanicus, as well as Hrud, Lost and the Damned or Exodites, are full factions too. They just lack a Codex.

Wasn't first edition when eldar could run around with bolters, and marines could have shuriken weaponry?
No, I am saying that since they got the *first* Codex, it's disingenuous to say that they're a subset of another faction who got their own book only afterwards.
And the basic marine statline for Grey Hunters, some equipment options and a few vehicles isn't anywhere near 90% of the SM Codex.

Even from a background perspective, the Wolves are their own army; they do not follow the Codex, and have their own (nearly) independent realm (Ironically, much like the Ultramarines).

I consider them a splinter faction, but one that has gone quite far from its roots. But at the heart of it, they're still Astartes born of the emperors blood.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Right at Ultramarine´s side. By the way I played Flesh Eaters then. Flesh Eaters, Flesh Tearers, White Scars, Space Wolves... all of them shared 100% of the rules.

Space Wolves were Space Marines then.

Even more important: they still are. You are saying the same as Troike: "since they got a Codex, they are a faction". Following that reasoning, the Sentinels of Terra or the Legion of the Damned are full factions too. I don´t think they are.

If all Space Wolves are Space Marines, and 90% of any Wolf Codex is copy-pasted from SM Codex, then they are a Space Marine subfaction. It doesn´t matter that, due to marketing, they got a Codex that is almost identical to the core rules they shared before (first edition, in this case).

I am a background-player. Marketing (how much a Codex sell or even the existence of a separate Codex) do not seem relevant to me to determine what a faction is.

Other examples: Adeptus Arbites or Mechanicus, as well as Hrud, Lost and the Damned or Exodites, are full factions too. They just lack a Codex.

Wasn't first edition when eldar could run around with bolters, and marines could have shuriken weaponry?
No, I am saying that since they got the *first* Codex, it's disingenuous to say that they're a subset of another faction who got their own book only afterwards.
And the basic marine statline for Grey Hunters, some equipment options and a few vehicles isn't anywhere near 90% of the SM Codex.

Even from a background perspective, the Wolves are their own army; they do not follow the Codex, and have their own (nearly) independent realm (Ironically, much like the Ultramarines).

I get it. You count factions according to books.

For me, it is about the background. See the Mechanicus or Arbites example. For me they are a full faction in their own right, in spite of lacking a Codex. The admech is soon to get a Codex, or so it seems, but for me they are a full faction since forever.

Iron Hands, Black Templars or Blood Angels do not follow the Codex Astartes, and they all have their own background and stuff, exactly as Wolves. The only difference would be that the Wolves got a Codex first. Ultramarines were there before a generic SM Codex was released too. All these armies are Space Marines, with about 10% new content over the generic Astartes. It is more than all statlines, most of the weaponary and gear and most of the vehicles (isn´t it "all the vehicles" for the Wolves right now?): it is sharing an origin.

The implants, the past as a Legion, the Primarchs... wolves and the rest of Space Marines share a common background. It is not by chance than the stats, vehicles and gear of a Salamander are exactly as those of a Space Wolf: the similarities are not similarities: they have the same stuff because they get the same stuff (implants, gear, vehicles) from the same sources, for the same reason.

They are both marines. To see a different faction, look at Necrons or Tau or Orks.

I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, I just think of factions from a "fluffy" point of view. You say they got a Codex so they are a faction. Ok, I get it. Different interpretations, that´s all.


Some people share your opinion, or so it seems reading Troike´s post. And Hive Fleet Cerberus just posted something I agree 100% with: "a splinter faction, but one that has gone quite far from its roots. But at the heart of it, they're still Astartes born of the emperors blood." Yeah, that´s it.

 da001 wrote:
Some people share your opinion, or so it seems reading Troike´s post.

Honestly, I don't particularly care about the technicalities of whether something is a subfaction or a whole faction or whatever. The point I was trying to make with the SW/GK is that other codexes can exist with even tighter focuses than the SoB one, but still be fully-sized, expansive and well-liked. And I stand by that point.

Yep, I see it.

And if we skip the "faction/subfaction" debate, I 100% agree with you.

The four things I am missing in this game right now are:
1) A proper Sisters of Battle Codex.
2) Chaos Legions rules
3) A proper Mechanicus Codex.
4) Some Xenos that are actually Xenos (like the nids), instead of quite close to humans (like, well, the rest).