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So, if the CSMs have no respect for the codex and don't follow it at all, so shouldn't their tactics be complete junk compared to the Ultramarines? Does this explain why Abbadon sucks at making Black Crusades? Either that, or the Codex Astartes is junk tactics, which is weird, since the Ultramarines are not dead.

The CSM have no respect for the codex because it didn't exist when they were around. It's like asking why the Romans didn't follow the tactics applied in Carl Von Clauzwitz, because it didn't exist.

also just because they don't follow the codex doesn't mean their tactics suck. Gulliman was one brother out of 20. and the best was proably questionable. Abbaddon may not have sat down and read the codex (or maybe he has, whose to say) but he also learned at the foot of Horus.

thing is, none of the black crusades where failures persay. the goal of thsoe crusades wasn't nesscarily conquest. they where aimed at acheiving certin goals. goals that, for the most part, where met

Even the best textbook can't teach you everything about a subject, especially one which was written 10,000 years ago. The codex astartes isn't a formula for perfect tactics, it's a set of guidelines for good tactics. Even if you understand it perfectly, you still have to be clever enough to apply it correctly.

The ultramarines have access to what is probably the best training and overall tactical thinking of any space marine force, but that doesn't automatically mean that every one of them is always going to outperform any opponent in any situation. There's a huge difference between 'not the best overall' and 'junk'. Plenty of ultramarines seem to have failed to grasp the full potential of the codex and plenty of people who never read the codex have come up with really good tactics.

When interpreted correctly, the codex gives ultramarines a small advantage over most opponents in most situations. But when taken too literally or adhered to too closely in an unusual situation against a clever enemy, it can be a hindrance.

The Codex Astartes isn't some awesome guide on how to win at being a Space Marines Chapter. It was more or less designed by Guilliman as a set of rules and guidelines for Space Marine Chapters to follow. By homogenizing the organization and tactics of the Space Marines, Guilliman thought that it would decrease the risk of Space Marines going rogue a la the Horus Heresy.

That being said, various Space Marine Chapters and Chaos Renegade forces can tactically function perfectly well without the strictures of the Codex Astartes.

I really wish GW actually put out some kind of lore-related text that actually explains how to play the race. For SMs, it would be Codex Astartes. For the CSMs, it would probably some kind of tactica by Abbadon. For Tau, it would be a manual. For Adeptus Mechanicus, it would be a document from STCs.

That doesn´t make any sense.

Is like claiming that all humanity should follow, say, Napoleon´s style of war.

Any faction doing this will be destroyed when their enemies learn of such an unheard of lack of tactical creativity.

I really hope they never do that. It is bad enough to hear that many Astartes chapter follow a single book to the letter.

Didn't some Iron Warrior basically own the Ultramarines because he knew what the Codex said?

SirSertile wrote:
I really wish GW actually put out some kind of lore-related text that actually explains how to play the race. For SMs, it would be Codex Astartes. For the CSMs, it would probably some kind of tactica by Abbadon. For Tau, it would be a manual. For Adeptus Mechanicus, it would be a document from STCs.

For what it's worth, it'd probably suck.

You might look up the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer if you want some tongue in cheek "fluff reference" material for how an army is supposed to work. I have a copy, it's a funny read.

Saying that their tactics would be junk. They are still Sphesz Muhreens they have been taught the art of war.

On top of that saying that not using the codex astartes would make you a tactical impaired idiot would be rather stupid. Look at the pre-heresy stuff. They did fine without it.

SirSertile wrote:
So, if the CSMs have no respect for the codex and don't follow it at all, so shouldn't their tactics be complete junk compared to the Ultramarines? Does this explain why Abbadon sucks at making Black Crusades? Either that, or the Codex Astartes is junk tactics, which is weird, since the Ultramarines are not dead.

2 things:
1) none of the Black Crusades have been failures they have all been successful, including the 13th before the fake ending mess
2) the Codex is not the Bible of War Tactics it's a set of guild lines that Guilliman gave to the Second Founding Chapters. It's not a manual on exactly how to right war it's more of a compendium of tips such as 'when fighting Orks, bring Flamers'. At least that's my take on it.

By the same logic, all non-Codex Astartes Chapters like the Space Wolves should be gak.

Veteran of the Long War: none of the Black Crusades have been failures they have all been successful, including the 13th before the fake ending mess

This bothered me too. You cannot conquer the galaxy in one go. Each Black Crusade has been a roaring success if you took the time to read about them.

Nerd rage aside, CSM have their own tactics that they deem superior. Remember, most chaos forces are warbands led by one guy making all the choices.

SirSertile wrote:
So, if the CSMs have no respect for the codex and don't follow it at all, so shouldn't their tactics be complete junk compared to the Ultramarines? Does this explain why Abbadon sucks at making Black Crusades? Either that, or the Codex Astartes is junk tactics, which is weird, since the Ultramarines are not dead.

The Codex Astartes isnt about winning battles, it's about how to structure your force to be useful, somewhat powerful, but not too powerful; so that if the unit decides to rebel, it isnt such a major problem as the Heresy.

It also helps the IoM deploy forces. When they are reacting to a new threat, the high lords of terra can move 7 SM chapters across the galaxy to face it, knowing that each of the 7 is approximately equal and interchangeable. This saves the high lords of terra from actually knowing about the fighting abilities of the units, as they arent military types it probably helps them. For Chaos, Abby or whatever grand warmaster is a soldier and knows the individual strengths and conditions of each of his warbands and can apply the right amount of force to accomplish their goals.

Tactics are for battles. Nightlords don't need tactics because they don't battle... they hunt.

Here is an article from the Index Astartes on the Codex, give it a read. It provides an overview of its purpose and the reasons why it was created

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_ca.html

And no, Chaos Space Marines tactics aren't 'junk'. The Veterans of the Long War have no need for it as they have been fighting, you know, the long war, before the Codex was put into force. It also does not mean they are not aware or have once followed what was once contained in its pages. As the battle between the Ultramarines and Aplha Legion on Eskrador shows.

According to the Index Astartes article on the Imperial Fists the codex even contains writings from Perturabo

Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex.

More recent renegades who no longer follow it If anything have an advantage against those that follow it's doctrines as they could have insight into it's weaknesses. But you can't have that though as Space Marines are the best