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As the title what the hell are the rules for the Twins on the Eagle. Neither Montrous nor normal Cavalry rules seem to fit at all with the two riders rules. So how is this supposed to work? How does it interact with conjoined destiny? Just what the hell?

They are two profiles, but still one entry, so treat them as such, so what happens when you put a model on a monstrous beast you use the highest T and W available, in this case the rider has two profiles, so both are affected, since we do not have permission to treat a model with two rider profiles differently than a model with one.

In short the sisters become even harder to kill.

How do they become harder to kill? Sorry what happens when I shoot them and score say 5 hits? Or a Cannonball hits the model? Does conjoined destiny do nothing when on the Eagle?

So any advance on them just being a single T4 3 wounded model where Conjoined Destiny does nothing?

I don't believe that they are a single model, each of them has a profile and just happen to be in the same unit. You can't ignore the conjoined destiny rule, they create a unit, emphasis on "unit", and then just happen to ride each eagle. Essentially, this would mean you have two t4 w3 models.

On a side note, I do believe this is what would make them worth thier point cost. On the other hand, it might make them too hard to kill, double the chance for the cannon ball to do roll a 1 or 2 on wounds for just one of them to wipe out the wounds they suffered completely....

So they both have a profile. They only form a unit if their mount dies. Montrous Cav use a combined profile for being attacked. If they are separate entities how do you resolve shooting against them and what rules are you using?

My take on it is this:

The "unit" has three profiles, one for each sister, and one for the eagle/dragon. For the eagle, you simply refer to entry in the Army book that talks about what the great eagle is, which Im pretty sure falls into flying monstrous cav. Dont have the book in front of me at the moment so I refer back later.

If this is the case, then you would randomize it amongst the three parties before rolling to wound. 1-2 is eagle, 3-4 is one sister, 5-6 is the other. This means you cannot kill them with cannon balls unless you fire three into them and successfully wound them all before the end of the phase (because it says phase in their entry).

What speaks against applying Monstrous Cavalry rules to them?#

I mean, besides common sense

They become MC. There are no rules in the WE book for this, so they follow the BRB rules. So. They become a 3 wound model. I do suspect that randomisation comes into it somewhere though.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
My take on it is this:

The "unit" has three profiles, one for each sister, and one for the eagle/dragon. For the eagle, you simply refer to entry in the Army book that talks about what the great eagle is, which Im pretty sure falls into flying monstrous cav. Dont have the book in front of me at the moment so I refer back later.

If this is the case, then you would randomize it amongst the three parties before rolling to wound. 1-2 is eagle, 3-4 is one sister, 5-6 is the other. This means you cannot kill them with cannon balls unless you fire three into them and successfully wound them all before the end of the phase (because it says phase in their entry).

Yes they are Monstrous Cav. Where are you getting randomisation from? Do you randomise when you shoot at Mournfang or Pegasus Knights? You shouldn't be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
They become MC. There are no rules in the WE book for this, so they follow the BRB rules. So. They become a 3 wound model. I do suspect that randomisation comes into it somewhere though.

So conjoined destiny does nothing when on the Eagle?

I think they only way that makes sense is to play them both as T4 W3, and randomize hits between them.
I'm thinking though the best use is a hero slot dragon, with 6 S6 attacks, and 6 S5 armor piercing attacks (ASF), and half those S5 attacks get +1 to wound.

In combat and shooting or do you choose in combat? What about templates? Hit both? I take it at this point we're just making up rules are there are none that actually tell us what to do.

Again: what stops them from becoming MC? Do they have a USR that prohibits it?

 FlingitNow wrote:
In combat and shooting or do you choose in combat? What about templates? Hit both? I take it at this point we're just making up rules are there are none that actually tell us what to do.

Now you're just being obtuse... maybe turn it down a notch so we solve this in a civilized manner

I can agree with the interpretation that on the eagle, both become t4 with three wounds. If they are in close combat then there is no need to randomize as you just declare which sister you are swinging against since they are oth on the same base. In shooting they will be randomized, unless you have the sniper special rule. With a template, both are hit.

When riding a dragon, as I illustrated earlier, since they are riding a monstrous creature, the hits would have to be randomized before hand as illustrated in the BRB

I don't have a problem with them on the Dragon. Dragons aren't Montrous Ceatures they are Monsters. With Monsters you randomise, ok we need to invent a further step to randomise between each rider if the rider is hit but at least we're following an existing process.

What about on a Monstrous beast. What rules are you using to randomise? What rules are you using that don't result in the entire model being removed the moment you've done 3 wounds to it?

If you're claiming we're not inventing rules then you need to state what rules you're using and when and what gives you permission to use those rules.

Fling - they're treating them as if they were riding two separate eagles.

Personally, here's what I would do because of the rule about them acting as a unit of two once their mount is slain. This gives you permission to slay their mount.

So, when on the eagle, they have T4 W3. When they are killed, that's the eagle that died, since that's the eagle's T4 W3. So you take them off the eagle and put them on foot.

 FlingitNow wrote:
In combat and shooting or do you choose in combat? What about templates? Hit both? I take it at this point we're just making up rules are there are none that actually tell us what to do.

If I fire at a unit that has 2 models in it, how do you randomize the hits?
That's the same thing I'd do for the sisters.

I think it's the best fit until it gets FAQ'd, or a new basic rulebook comes out changing how Monstrous Beasts and Riders work.

-Matt

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Fling - they're treating them as if they were riding two separate eagles.

Personally, here's what I would do because of the rule about them acting as a unit of two once their mount is slain. This gives you permission to slay their mount.

So, when on the eagle, they have T4 W3. When they are killed, that's the eagle that died, since that's the eagle's T4 W3. So you take them off the eagle and put them on foot.

Firstly they aren't riding 2 separate Eagles nor are we given permission to treat them as such.

The treat them as a unit once their mount is slain clearly only applies when on the Dragon as that is the only mount that can attack separately.

Treating the first 3 wounds as killing the mount is just a baffling interpretation. Has anyone got any rules based ideas or a solid HYWPI that is close to a likely RaI based on something actually real?

It's not based on any true RAW but my interpretation is that you would have 2 individual elements, both with T4/3W, sharing the same base. Incoming attacks could choose which to attack while shooting would be randomised, in exactly the same way as a Character riding a Monster. I choose this because it is the only situation I can think of where a single model has 'subsections' that can be attacked separately.

Yes this means you need to pump out 6 Wounds to a 50mm base in one phase or you get nothing, so it's probably far more durable than it should be. On the other side it's fairly easy to deal with using ranged weaponry. In particular, a template weapon (See Cannons) would hit both Sisters in the same volley. The Eagle cannot be attacked separately in the same way as a Monster.

On the other hand, we have a complication in that there is nothing to allow both Sisters to shoot in the same turn. After all they are still a single model. Furthermore, I assume they would take a single roll when making a Stat test.

I would have thought they would take two stat tests because there are two of them.

Eagle is Flying Mon Cav, so they use the wounds and toughness of the Eagle. Seeing as there are two of them they each have the same stats. It's a little bit like having two MC in the same unit, except both riders are on the same model.

 FlingitNow wrote:


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 thedarkavenger wrote:
They become MC. There are no rules in the WE book for this, so they follow the BRB rules. So. They become a 3 wound model. I do suspect that randomisation comes into it somewhere though.

So conjoined destiny does nothing when on the Eagle?

It would seem so.

This is one of the many problems we will face with the new army book. I find it silly that they lose conjoined destiny due to changing mounts.
We will wait for a FAQ and till then there is nothing we can do. Apart from that everything else is mostly making up rules that don't exist.

What I dont get is how over thought this whole thing has become.

Suddenly the rules arent clear and everyones world is falling apart.

These are two seperate models. They have act as one for most of their actions, excluding shooting and CC... For being mounted, they are still seperate models that are on the same mount. One model becomes T4 with three wounds, another model on the same base also becomes T4 and three wounds. Whenever there is an instance of mulitple models being affected, then all the models that can be affected are affected. If they are targeted by something that can only hit one model at a time, you randomize it just like the BRB says.

We need to knock off this whole "but the BRB only talks about one model... we dont know what to do about two...". These rules have been and always will be adaptable in these scenarios, certainly more-so than 40K, and we are given an oppurtunity to really hash this out and keep it from becoming a problem. Just think outside the box and the answer will smack you right in the gob.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
What I dont get is how over thought this whole thing has become.

Suddenly the rules arent clear and everyones world is falling apart.

These are two seperate models. They have act as one for most of their actions, excluding shooting and CC... For being mounted, they are still seperate models that are on the same mount. One model becomes T4 with three wounds, another model on the same base also becomes T4 and three wounds. Whenever there is an instance of mulitple models being affected, then all the models that can be affected are affected. If they are targeted by something that can only hit one model at a time, you randomize it just like the BRB says.

We need to knock off this whole "but the BRB only talks about one model... we dont know what to do about two...". These rules have been and always will be adaptable in these scenarios, certainly more-so than 40K, and we are given an oppurtunity to really hash this out and keep it from becoming a problem. Just think outside the box and the answer will smack you right in the gob.

+1

These are two seperate models.

The issue is that they are not two separate models. The rest of your post is predicated on this false premise. They are one model that is the issue.

They are two seperate models because the Army book illustrates what to do with them when they are no longer mounted.

Which implies that they are NOT two models BEFORE they are no longer mounted, otherwise they would not BECOME two models when their mount dies.

So whatever happens, they are one model. Right?
Or it differs from eagle to dragon? And I guess that only one of two shoots right?
Or does this differ from dragon to eagle?

Yeah currently we have two distinct riders for a Monster and this doesn't cause any real issues as we have rules for how to treat multiple models on one base in this case. But on an Eagle they're Montrous Cav and we have no rules or permission to treat that as anything more than 1 model. Yes its dumb and treating them as if they were on two separate Eagles on the same base seems to solve most of the issues though.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
They are two seperate models because the Army book illustrates what to do with them when they are no longer mounted.

Find me a rule that explains how to target two MC riders. The BRB specifically states that you use one profile for MC. This raises the whole thing of, what happens when these two models become MC.

And, whilst the two models on one base thing would solve most of the issues, it raises another. Who gets hit? Do they all get hit? That kinda negates their whole thing of 'we die if you don't kill us both'. Or does one of them get hit? If so, how do you determine which one?