Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 FlingitNow wrote:
They're fast Cav I deploy them how the situation demands.

danny1995 I have 20 Waywatchers in 2 units of 10 in the list. I'm only running 5s of Wild Riders so I can weaken a unit with Waywatchers and finish it with Wild Riders.

The problem is that you won't ever get 30 attacks unless you go 10*1 against a unit of 5 crushers or fangs.

Fangs are units of 4, and crushers are 2 units of 3, generally.

So, 5*2 is the safest option.


These guys, in a unit of 10 could actually work in your favour in the Throgg matchup. Flaming banner and challenge out throgg. That way you rack up the CR on the charge.

That way it alleviates one of your worst matchups.

The next is ogres. The Waywatchers can deal with the mournfang, but the gutstar has a lot of wounds as well. If you can figure out a way to reliably take it off before it crosses the centreline, on turn 2, then you can do well.

I, however, have my serious doubts as to the list as a whole, in the current meta. With Dark Elves cauldron shooty lists being common(Yay for badly written rules), and knightbuses(Yay for FAQs) being common, this list does struggle a bit.

10 wide all get in against 4 monstrous cav! Maybe capitalisation will help you understand THEY ARE FAST CAVALRY I PICK FORMATION THE TURN BEFORE I CHARGE AND USE INFINITE REFORMS TO GET WHERE I WANT. Note also in the examples I allowed all 22 Executioners to fight. It was an example You get 8 against 3 Crushers still enough to win combat in a round.

Any big unit will get magiced ALOT be that Gutstar, Throgg whatever. But if Throgg and regen is such an issue how about this:

Spell Weaver: lvl4, shadow: Talisman of Preservation 265 

Glade Captain: BsB: Hail of Doom Arrow 130 
Spell Singer: lvl2, Death: Dispell Scroll, elven steed 150 
Spell Singer: lvl2, Death: elven steed 125 

12 Glade Guard: hagbane, std & mus 200 
12 Glade Guard: hagbane, std & mus 200 
10 Glade Guard: starfire, std & mus 180 
10 Glade Guard: arcane bodkins, std & mus 190 

5 Wild Riders: champion, std, BoEW, shields 170 
5 Wild Riders: champion, std, shields 160 
5 Sisters of the Thorne: 130 

10 Waywatchers 200 
10 Waywatchers 200 
Eagle 50 
Eagle 50 

 FlingitNow wrote:
10 wide all get in against 4 monstrous cav! Maybe capitalisation will help you understand THEY ARE FAST CAVALRY I PICK FORMATION THE TURN BEFORE I CHARGE AND USE INFINITE REFORMS TO GET WHERE I WANT. Note also in the examples I allowed all 22 Executioners to fight. It was an example You get 8 against 3 Crushers still enough to win combat in a round.

Any big unit will get magiced ALOT be that Gutstar, Throgg whatever. But if Throgg and regen is such an issue how about this:

Spell Weaver: lvl4, shadow: Talisman of Preservation 265 

Glade Captain: BsB: Hail of Doom Arrow 130 
Spell Singer: lvl2, Death: Dispell Scroll, elven steed 150 
Spell Singer: lvl2, Death: elven steed 125 

12 Glade Guard: hagbane, std & mus 200 
12 Glade Guard: hagbane, std & mus 200 
10 Glade Guard: starfire, std & mus 180 
10 Glade Guard: arcane bodkins, std & mus 190 

5 Wild Riders: champion, std, BoEW, shields 170 
5 Wild Riders: champion, std, shields 160 
5 Sisters of the Thorne: 130 

10 Waywatchers 200 
10 Waywatchers 200 
Eagle 50 
Eagle 50 

It'll do well against Throgg now. But Ogres? I'm not convinced. You have ONE double flee. That unit cannot be everywhere.

With Wild Riders, I'd go with units of 6.
19 attacks form 1 unit means that a single unit can hit a unit of 3 monstrous cav, and likely win (5 wounds to 3.5 wounds).
With the charge, you're on average winning by 2 or 3 points, for 50 or 60 points less.
You can double up on one unit if you want to, but 6 lets you go in solo as well.

IMO, step 1 in combat wood elves is 3 units of 6 wild riders. They are all the punch you can get, and being fairly cheap and glasscannnons, more is better.

If I get Withering and Soulblight (fairly likely with 4 spells from each lore) one will get through and that Gutstar will take a lot of casualties. Just need to hold it at bay long enough so the Wild Riders can beat it. Curse will hurt it too. I feel I have the tools to deal with it. It is certainly not a complete no game against them.

 FlingitNow wrote:
If I get Withering and Soulblight (fairly likely with 4 spells from each lore) one will get through and that Gutstar will take a lot of casualties. Just need to hold it at bay long enough so the Wild Riders can beat it. Curse will hurt it too. I feel I have the tools to deal with it. It is certainly not a complete no game against them.

If played right, you have one turn before you have to start chaffing the entire Ogre Army. That's what worries me.

It's why I said you have to have little units. You can sit back, and shoot, and chaff, then shoot.

This is not combat Wood Elves what would you drop to get the 56 points for the 2 extra Wild Riders?

 FlingitNow wrote:
If I get Withering and Soulblight (fairly likely with 4 spells from each lore) one will get through and that Gutstar will take a lot of casualties. Just need to hold it at bay long enough so the Wild Riders can beat it. Curse will hurt it too. I feel I have the tools to deal with it. It is certainly not a complete no game against them.

Or if you can get a unit in the front and flank. You'll kill 7-10 ogres before they swing (doing 20-30 wounds). Very possible to break the gutstar on the charge with less than 400 points of fast cav.

As for what to drop, core is your answer.
I think time will prove 15 to 18 point T3 S3 shooters as ineffective. I think this is another elf book of spend 25% on core, and not a penny more.

I'm tempted to spam Waystriders. At 90, they can be one of the cheaper redirecting units, and sniping characters in meantime is appealing. Personally, I'd drop the hero wizards and the BSB, shift the scroll to the wiz lord. Wild Riders are ITP, and Glade Guard aren't likely going to need the BSB.

So something like this:


Spell Weaver: lvl4, shadow: Talisman of Preservation 265  

Glade Captain: BsB: Hail of Doom Arrow 130  
Spell Singer: lvl2, Death: Dispell Scroll, elven steed 150  
Spell Singer: lvl2, Death: elven steed 125  

10 Glade Guard: hagbane, std & mus 170  
10 Glade Guard: hagbane, std & mus 170  
10 Glade Guard: starfire, std & mus 180  
10 Glade Guard: arcane bodkins, std & mus 190  

6 Wild Riders: champion, std, BoEW, shields 198  
6 Wild Riders: champion, std, shields 188 
5 Sisters of the Thorne: 130  

10 Waywatchers 200  
10 Waywatchers 200  
Eagle 50  
Eagle 50  

I never like going into battle without a BsB plus he's a convenient spot to put the HoDA so annoying the Waystalker can't take it. What's OP about 3d6 S4 ignoring armour sniper shots at Bs7? Oh right everything...

I like what Death brings to the list in the way of Soulblight, Doom and Darkness and Sniping. It gives me 4 casters and I want to stick to that. I might shift the Scroll onto the lvl4 for safe keeping but I'm keeping the double death Wizards. For one they could tempt out a Hellheart early game.

BTW cok are T4 because of their mounts. Also fairly certain the stags get frenzy cos the special rule affects the whole model, like stupidity etc

 Son of Landuin wrote:
BTW cok are T4 because of their mounts.

Um, no. They are Cavalry, not Monstrous Cavalry

Oh, damn. I thought I applied to the both. Ah well, I had a list planned with that in mind. Back the dark riders then...

Yeah COKs are T3 still good though.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah COKs are T3 still good though.

Meh. Dark riders are just better though in my opinion.

List looks solid, perhaps a little heavy on the characters. Why did you decide to take 2 death on the singers? Would a beasts wizard work better on one of them for the +3/4 if in wood to cast on the wild riders?
Or do you really want a good shot at the death spells?

Soulblight with Wither is amazing tor this army. Whilst Doom & Darkness really helps panic stuff off. Plus sniping Characters helps as I don't really have another way of killing them.

danny1995 wrote:

 Son of Landuin wrote:
BTW cok are T4 because of their mounts.

Um, no. They are Cavalry, not Monstrous Cavalry

It does.

P7 of the FAQ:

Q: When a unit has multiple toughness values or armour saves do
you use the value of the majority or in the case of a tie, the best (p42,
43)?
A: Yes, unless specified otherwise.


And, as it doesn't tell you to use the rider's toughness, knights are T4!

Specified otherwise in the Cavalry entry;

"The mount's Wounds and Toughness are never used." PG 82 of the BRB

Please read the rules before making arguments

Darkavenger seems to be on a crusade to make easily disproven wildly inaccurate claims in this thread.

danny1995 wrote:
Specified otherwise in the Cavalry entry;

"The mount's Wounds and Toughness are never used." PG 82 of the BRB

Please read the rules before making arguments

Missed that one line. My bad.


The rest of it stands.

So scaling up to 3k something like this:


Spell Weaver: lvl4, shadow: Talisman of Preservation, DBG, Dispell Scroll 295

Glade Captain: BsB: Hail of Doom Arrow 130   
Spell Singer: lvl2, Death: elven steed 125
Spell Singer: lvl2, Death: elven steed 125   
Waystalker: Bow of Loren 110

12 Glade Guard: hagbane, std & mus 200   
12 Glade Guard: hagbane, std & mus 200   
10 Glade Guard: starfire, std 170   
10 Glade Guard: arcane bodkins, std 180   

6 Wild Riders: champion, std, BoEW, shields 198   
6 Wild Riders: champion, std, shields 188 
6 Wild Riders: champion, std, shields 188 
5 Sisters of the Thorne: mus 140   

10 Waywatchers 200   
10 Waywatchers 200   
10 Waywatchers 200
Eagle 50   
Eagle 50   
Eagle 50

Basically fill to 750 core then add more of all the killy stuff.

You've both got solid points.
You both have repeatedly made wild accusations about each other.
And, I've noticed, you both seem to put up army lists on these threads, as if to ask for C&C, but then proceed to argue anyone down if they suggest you so much as swap out your Potion of Foolhardiness for a Potion of Speed.

I mean, c'mon. If you think your list is 100% perfect in every possible way, then just say so in the OP.
"Hey everyone, just wanted to show you my MAD SKILLZ. No need to comment, I know it's the best thing ever".

You've noticed I've changed the list multiple times right? You also notice I supported my claims with the actual maths. Just because I put a list on here for advice doesn't mean I want it to get worse. I listen to well thought out advice that actually has support. Like much of what HawaiiMatt suggests. If some one gives bad, inconsistent or flatout factually incorrect advice then yes I'm not going to listen and I'm going to explain why.

So for instance the list is well designed to murder stuff with very good armour saves so when some says I'll struggle to deal with stuff with good armour I'll point out they are wrong. However when someone points out that I can't deal with regen I notice they are correct and change my list.

I never said that you can't deal with high armour, just that you're relying wholly on 20 waywatchers, who can still miss, or fail to wound with S3.

Your statement is basically "you might not roll good" well no duh, everyone can roll badly, 20 way watchers are an astonishing way to deal with armour. In all honesty, arcane bodkins stuck for it, 17 ppm for a glade guard causing a -3 to armour with lower ballistic skill and less maneuverability. Or 20 ppm for no armour at all and a character level ballistic skill, I think it's obvious which one is better.

danny1995 wrote:
Your statement is basically "you might not roll good" well no duh, everyone can roll badly, 20 way watchers are an astonishing way to deal with armour. In all honesty, arcane bodkins stuck for it, 17 ppm for a glade guard causing a -3 to armour with lower ballistic skill and less maneuverability. Or 20 ppm for no armour at all and a character level ballistic skill, I think it's obvious which one is better.

Two units at 20ppm or unlimited at 17ppm.

The latter is also necessary to make up your army, can function as chaff at minimal sizes and gives you fortitude in case of B&G.

I'd go with Glade Guard over Waywatchers. Arcane Bodkins isn't as good as the ignoring armour, but it also means that people will concentrate fire on Waywatchers. And as you can only take two units of them, relying on them may be moot, as if your opponent gets one good turn, they're gone.

As pointed out 20 Waywatchers are very good at that job. Plus I do have a unit of 10 with Bodkins for support plus 2 units of Wild Riders. So my initial set up was very well designed to murder 1+ save stuff. It is even better now with 2 extra Wild Riders.

 FlingitNow wrote:
As pointed out 20 Waywatchers are very good at that job. Plus I do have a unit of 10 with Bodkins for support plus 2 units of Wild Riders. So my initial set up was very well designed to murder 1+ save stuff. It is even better now with 2 extra Wild Riders.

I never said it wasn't. I just think that the extra bodkins glade guard are more suited to dealing with armour than wild riders, not because wild riders are bad, but because the extra guard give you A) Chaff, and B) A way of getting rid of armour from a distance, which is good.


Plus, spamming lotsa bodkins makes people expect it in netlists, which makes wild riders even better.

Seems like fighting wood elves is going to go:
Step 1, kill wild riders.
Step 2, kill waywatchers.
Step 3, profit.
Unlike most of these profit plans, none of the steps are missing.

How does a wood elf army survive against an army that can shoot back, and has decent ranged magic?
I really like the hitting power of wild riders, but 28 points for a T3 4+/6++ is asking for trouble.

-Matt

Yeah I can see that weakness Trueflight spam sort of solves it and mass 30" range helps as a lot of other shooty armies are stuck to 24". Dwarves being the problem but they've low model count and going first probably decides the game.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah I can see that weakness Trueflight spam sort of solves it and mass 30" range helps as a lot of other shooty armies are stuck to 24". Dwarves being the problem but they've low model count and going first probably decides the game.

I don't think going first is going to matter.
T4 with 4+ armor and a crossbow is going to murder, BS4 T3 with a S3 AP bow.
Dwarves hit on 5+ kill on 3+.
Elves hit on 4+ and wound on 5+, dwarf saves on 5+ (without magic arrows)
Point for point, dwarves out kill 2:1.

But wait, what about magic arrows?
Bodkins put a 12 point dwarf vs a 17 point elf. Point for point, advantage Dwarf 1.89:1
Trueflightt: advantage dwarf, 1.87:1
Swiftshiver: advantage dwarf 2:1
Moonfire: 1.77:1
Hagbane: 1.5:1
At best, hagbane arrows means that dwarf core only out shoots elf core by ~50%.

Elves have mobility, dwarfs can spam warmachines and force the issue. The wood elf player must fire on the gyrocopters or he will lose whole units to them.

I'd hate to be the wood elf in the match up against a dwarf who spent his 25% of core on 50 Quarrellers with shields, heavy armor and crossbows.