Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

WOAH THERE! Let me get this out of the way right here, right now; this is NOT a thread aimed at the common "40k is just rock, paper, scissors with army selection bla bla bla" complaint thread. In fact this thread isn't about the balance of 40k at all. So if you read the title and came to jump on the "40k is a cashgrab, isnt balanced bla bla" hate train OR the hate train hating said hate train (getting all sorts of hate-train-ception), this is not the place.

So, what is this thread about? Let me start with a little rock, paper, scissors. I have a fact that I am very proud of but NEVER share with people I know personally, which is the fact that I have not lost a rock paper scissors game in over 70 games. That is right, I am on a 70 "win streak" in rock, paper, scissors. "BULLCRAP!" I hear you say. Rightly so, I mean the odd's of winning rock, paper, scissors is 1/2 ie. 1:1 (half they pick what beats you, have they pick what you beat; resets if draw). That would mean winning 70 straight games is 1,180,591,620,717,411,303,424. So either I am the luckiest man in the world and should be on the headline of every major new station in the world, or there is something wrong. There is in fact something wrong. That is that the odd's of winning a game of rock, paper, scissors is 1/2 ie. 1:1. While those are the odds for a computer vs. computer rock, paper, scissors game, and the odds for one of the computers to win 70 in a row is over 1 sextillion (hehe, sex), I left out a HUGE component: me.

Or more specifically, behaviorism. I'm defining behaviorism in this essay (whoops, did I say essay? I meant to say thread) as: "the study or practice of analyzing the psyche in terms of methodology, theory, tactics, and probability". So how the hell did I beat the one in over sextillion odds with behaviorism, especially when it is just rock, paper, scissors (something which 40k is criticized for being a lot)? Lots. And these are the things I want to discuss in this thread.

So what exactly can you tell before even playing a person to win? Well here are some examples, they are in a quote box so you can skip them if you please and know you are not skipping anything else:

1. Before even engaging the person, "size them up". Analyze their clothes, are they baggy or fitted, are they clean, are they tucked in, what type of shoes do they have, do they have any accessories, etc? What is their demeanor? Are they looking people in the eye or look away, do they slouch or sit up straight, do they talk with their hands, do they make pronounced facial expressions, etc? Once you engage them, how do they react? Do they take control of the conversation or let you guide it, do they give long responses or are they quick, do they speak well or not, do they wait for you to finish or interrupt, etc? I use all of this and more to judge them. Then after I do I determine how I should approach the question of a game of rock paper scissors and how I should act. I will try to lead them to whatever I feel they will already most likely pick by choosing how I act with them and throwing in the odd subliminal message if I feel it is needed. You know the results.

-Intro Over (if you skipped it, its a good read if I do say so myself, and only takes a few minutes)-
SO! Lets begin to talk about 40k! I'll start with a few guidelines:
1. We obviously cannot talk about "our opponent" but we can:
a. Talk about stereotyped opponents (ie, poorly painted army opponent, that calculator guy, the GW employee, etc)
b. Army types (ie, flier spam lists, spam lists general, allied armies, detachment heavy armies, etc)
c. MORE

2. We can talk about many aspects of the game too:
a. Turn phases (ie, levels of aggression in turns, movement strategies in turns)
b. Reacting (ie, what to do when alpha striked, how to react to infantry advancing towards an objective, etc)
c. MORE

3. My favorite, GUIDING! By this I mean controlling how your opponent plays:
a. Subliminal messaging (I'll drop a thing or two on the floor and say "ah shoot" if I want my opponent to focus on engaging my models he is in range to)
b. Bluffing (talk up a unit that sucks or talk down a unit that is amazing)
c. Plan "revealing" (reveal part of your plan as if it was your whole plan, leave out the part where you anticipate that your opponent thinks its your whole plan and your plan to take advantage of that).
d. False front (if you want to make your opponent think you are getting ready to shoot a lot, poor a ton of dice in your hands! want to make your opponent think you are moving somewhere but you aren't? Measure distance from some units to there a couple times).


Well, those are just some small topics. I could actually right pages and get into some actual examples, but I am unsure if this thread will take off. I really hope it will, the tactics forum needs this.

LETS HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY!

This just might be one of the most interesting threats I've seen in a while.
Not sure what should I say since I kind of missed the question.

Using our opponent as a part of our strategy?
What happens when he realises stuff like "ah shoot" as a trap?
It's a dangerous game where you can get the advantage, but also easily lose it if the opponent outsmarts you in your little mental chessgame above the more real one.

Also I'm not sure how some of this works when I know most of the people I play with.

The question? I guess its really more of an open discussion on using behaviorism. One question might be: What are some tactics you use with regards of anticipating your opponents movement, guiding your opponent to certain moves, etc,
But of course somebody could just ask to hear more on a subject and we all could chip in.
As for "what if the opponent realises the subliminal message is a trap?" Then it doesnt work. Though you would have to be very reckless with the way you say it. Seriously though, if it doesnt work it doesnt work. However, you can false-front subliminal messages and purposefully be obvious with them in order to get your opponent to do the opposite. If you play with the same people a lot, even better! You know most of their strategies and can lead them into their same routine and be ready for it. Either that or totally throw them off guard. And just because you know somebody well doesnt mean you cant use behaviorism on them, quite the opposite in fact.

I also disagree that the board is the more real chess game. This is assuming there are two different games going on, one of 40k and one of mind games. This is not true, they are one in the same.

My knee-jerk response to this is that you would have more success gaining solid knowledge of the rules and units and tactics than concentrating on insubstantial mind games which may or may not pay off.

The success of subliminal suggestion is really dependent on the mental state of the subject, and I would assume that an opponent in a game would automatically have their guard up.

The non-subliminal bluffs you mentioned would be much more likely to work though. If, for example, your strategy needs your opponent to avoid a certain unit because of a certain rule, and they've forgotten all about it and are foolishly not avoiding it. It doesn't hurt to casually remind them before it's too late.

One thing I do which seems to work: if I'm not sure about what to do, I simply ask my opponent what they think I should do. They are usually so disarmed by the humble question that they answer truthfully AND give an explanation, even if the result could be bad for them. This only works for a much more experienced player who is already winning though.

In the words of LT L.T. Smash:
"It's a three-pronged attack: subliminal, liminal and superliminal".

First words I read were.

-Intro Over (if you skipped it, its a good read if I do say so myself, and only takes a few minutes)-

Touche. You've convinced me to read your text.

EDIT: Sometimes I look over my opponent's list and talk up certain units like mine are afraid of them.

"Those Sternguard can sure lay down the wounds on my Tyranid Warriors...with their 3+ cover and FnP...shhhhhhhh"

Synapse baiting is unique all to itself though. Yeah, taking down those Warriors will make my whole army fall apart...not really because that Terv ain't goin' down.

I've won every game I've played my record is really big. I could probably offer some valuable insight in this thread.

The first thing I would recommend is acquire the best models in the game at the moment. You really want to make sure you've bought the best models with the best stats and the fewest drawbacks.

A lot of times I try to size up my opponents. I try to make sure I pick someone who looks like they don't know all the rules, perhaps someone who looks like they can be bullied into a rules arguement roll off. I also look for poor people who I know can't possibly have the best units in the game becauae they look like they struggle to feed the seven year old they brought with them. Playing people who have there families there to is a good idea because they will likely concede after I've wasted oodles of time talking about rules. Usually a good idea to pick a smoker so I can have my friend move models around the table while we are BSing on a smoke break. One thing is for certain is that I try to avoid competitive players and avoid competitive events.

Its usually a good idea to just cheat to. Like when I move a vehicle you can typically pickup two inches by simply sliding the tape forward slowly while you move the model. If you can't get bonus pen range on melta that way just pivot the model excessively.. slowly placing it each time closer to the destination. Be sure to be subtle about it, this is also good for wasting time with impatient opponents. If you cant get range by then just lie about the range on your melta or just claim its a multi melta. I've had a lot of success with adding extra points to my lists to, especially with the newwer crowd. Often times I add gear to my models and vehicles and just conveniently forget to add it. Its often a good idea to try and claim transports that aren't a DT are indeed a DT to help free up FOC slots.

Its also important to paint all your models the same. You really want to be able to lose track of your units when they stand side by side so you can forget which models were in which unit and play shenanigens with removing models, squad sizes, ld checks etc.. Also good for mixing up and confusing the contents of identical transports.

Be clumsy. If you know the unit you are shooting at is melee based go ahead and accidentally bump his models with the tape when measuring for shots. The right kind of work can put an assault out of range if the overwatch you've buffed to BS2 doesnt.

Forget your codex.. I mean claim you have memorized it but dont bring it to the table. Was your BS 3 or 4? Oh wait.. definately six and Twin Linked. Its also a good idea to increase the shots on all weapon profiles by one. Sell your friends on needing to repair your codex's flaws and then overbuff things.

Model to your advantage, hack bases of skimmers make troops kneeling. Make terrain that compliments your armies playstyle etc..

The next thing I recommend is dismissing every loss and not counting it for reasons like a bad roll, an opponent that may be better at cheating than me, or just a stuffy nose. Also, count every victory an extra D6 times.

You could also play Orkz, because orkz never lose, because they can run and come back for unuver go see?

This has been a non serious post meant to be for giggles or mean, depending on your humor. I don't actually do these things and am usually a joy to play with and felt like making a poo here in a thread quoting a strong record sighting Jedimindtricks as a formula for success.

Woudnt this be better in 40k general discussion?

3. My favorite, GUIDING! By this I mean controlling how your opponent plays:
a. Subliminal messaging (I'll drop a thing or two on the floor and say "ah shoot" if I want my opponent to focus on engaging my models he is in range to)
b. Bluffing (talk up a unit that sucks or talk down a unit that is amazing)
c. Plan "revealing" (reveal part of your plan as if it was your whole plan, leave out the part where you anticipate that your opponent thinks its your whole plan and your plan to take advantage of that).
d. False front (if you want to make your opponent think you are getting ready to shoot a lot, poor a ton of dice in your hands! want to make your opponent think you are moving somewhere but you aren't? Measure distance from some units to there a couple times).

 Rismonite wrote:
This has been a non serious post meant to be for giggles or mean, depending on your humor. I don't actually do these things and am usually a joy to play with and felt like making a poo here in a thread quoting a strong record sighting Jedimindtricks as a formula for success.

Gad you called yourself out because I was about to jump all over you sh*t! (^_^)

I put 20 on this turning into a semantics argument.

Never disambiguate a word. That's just asking for trouble in a non-formal setting

I think the important thing to remember about such jedimindtricks posted here is that they need to be subtle. Even an expert player can be goaded into doing something stupid...IF your list is odd enough to warrant it.

If you're playing as the meta...they already know what they want.

 ductvader wrote:
I think the important thing to remember about such jedimindtricks posted here is that they need to be subtle. Even an expert player can be goaded into doing something stupid...IF your list is odd enough to warrant it.

If you're playing as the meta...they already know what they want.

While I agree totally, I want to point something out that I think people are missing.

"Even an expert player can be goaded into doing something stupid"

This is the wrong way to look at what I am talking about. Sure, in EXTREME cases this could work. But thats not going to happen for most. There are a lot of good plays a person can make, these tactics can help you know which your opponent is going to pick.

Lets say it is you and another person, there is some licorice, chocolate, and lettuce. This other person gets to pick one to have as a treat and you get the other two. Sure it would be nice to "these are not the droids you are looking for" him into picking the lettuce, but it will rarely happen. What you can do is lead that person into leaving the one you want for you. If you really want the licorice, you can talk about how good a chocolate bar and milk tastes, or how tart and strong the licorice is (or vice versa).

Steering your opponent to the known is better than not knowing. Steering your opponent to the good choice that benefits your plan over the good choice that hurts your plan is even better. These are very doable.

Maybe not completely related, but the strategy I usually employ is to look my opponent dead in the eye and say "I'm choosing rock", after which I actually choose rock
I think I win roughly three quarters of the games of rock, paper, scissors I play using this tactic

Hmm, maybe this IS applicable to 40k after all...



EDIT: lots of spelling errors

Since the 4th grade, roughly 13 years ago, I've chose rock. Every time. No matter how many games I play, or how many do-overs, or rematches with the same person: I always go rock.

Everyone in my family knows my secret. I pray they won't speak of it to others. That being said, I still beat them occasionally. They think I'm bluffing. Even when we're playing for something and the loser has to do the dish (for example), I'll go rock and they try calling my bluff. Silly humans.

On a 40k-related note, I always play Alpha Strike armies. I used to play a 5 Mycetic Spore army with 3 Carnifexes, Doom, and 3 Zoanthropes, with 2 Flyrants to support. The pain came on Turn 2 unfortunately, but it hurt a lot. When Nids lost pods, I switched to Salamanders. I guess there is a similarity between me always picking 'rock' and always starting the game off strong. I'll let the analysts decide.

Brother Michael wrote:
Maybe not completely related, but the strategy I usually employ is to look my opponent dead in the eye and say "I'm choosing rock", after which I actually choose rock
I think I win roughly three quarters of the games of rock, paper, scissors I play using this tactic

Hmm, maybe this IS applicable to 40k after all...



EDIT: lots of spelling errors

actually a great analogy. Its really unnerving to an opponent when you look them dead in the eye and tell them exactly what you are going to do and do it. First they wont believe you because they think you are trying to trick em, then when they do it, they expect it to be a trap. I've done this a few times and it usually works to my advantage, one time the opponent told me what he was going to do right back, I laughed and told him now Im changing my tactic to combat yours, he said ok, both of us did what we said we were ganna do.

Scipio Africanus wrote:I put 20 on this turning into a semantics argument.

Never disambiguate a word. That's just asking for trouble in a non-formal setting

Well, let me try before it gets too out of hand.

What's the point of trying to psych your opponent? To make it easier for him to make mistakes. What is a mistake? Your opponent playing the "wrong" odds for certain in-game events, making it more likely that you will win.

But can you force your opponents to play different odds than he wants to? Perhaps, with in-game mechanics (like killing all of his anti-tank makes it safer for your tanks to do something), but with psychology? It's possible that you could do something that pretty much boils down to you asking your opponent politely (by one means or another) to make a mistake, but I definitely wouldn't count on it. There's no way at all to control for how it's going to work against any particular person, or to control for how it will work on people over time. At the absolute best, you're fishing for anecdotes about how "following this one wierd trick brings players wins in your area."

Because it's not objective, inevitably it winds up being extremely subjective, which drags the semantics along with it. Psychology means whatever anyone wants it to mean, and when you have that kind of epistemological positivism in your pocket, you now have an unfalsifiable statement of faith, not a statement of objective reality.

As for the other stuff, it's just information gathering and list tailoring. Researching local metas and then adjusting your list to them isn't really a matter of psychology at all.

 Hammernator wrote:
In the words of LT L.T. Smash:
"It's a three-pronged attack: subliminal, liminal and superliminal".

Ha! Good one! (As it happens I just saw that episode yesterday)

Here, have an Exalt!

The serious game of bluffing, double-bluffing and triple-bluffing is dangerous to play and there's still 50:50 chance for the opponent to know your aim and counter it.
Or they'll just ignore it and do whatever is tactically more sensible.

And please, do share some of your examples.
How can I use this into my friend as I know his tricks and he'll learn my really quickly if I start the behaviorism-shenanigans.
If I know him and he knows me, isn't he similarly able to play my weaknesses in this game?

 soomemafia wrote:
If I know him and he knows me, isn't he similarly able to play my weaknesses in this game?

Of course. People are acting like this thread is about some secret weapon that nobody else is using. EVERYONE is using behaviorism to play 40k, whether they realize it or not.

I simply want to discuss more into this, everyone uses it in 40k, its just not a treaded on subject (one of the few) and some don't understand and think Im selling snake oil medicine and teaching people how to do amazing subliminal magicianry.

 Ryan_A wrote:

Brother Michael wrote:
Maybe not completely related, but the strategy I usually employ is to look my opponent dead in the eye and say "I'm choosing rock", after which I actually choose rock
I think I win roughly three quarters of the games of rock, paper, scissors I play using this tactic

Hmm, maybe this IS applicable to 40k after all...



EDIT: lots of spelling errors

actually a great analogy. Its really unnerving to an opponent when you look them dead in the eye and tell them exactly what you are going to do and do it. First they wont believe you because they think you are trying to trick em, then when they do it, they expect it to be a trap. I've done this a few times and it usually works to my advantage, one time the opponent told me what he was going to do right back, I laughed and told him now Im changing my tactic to combat yours, he said ok, both of us did what we said we were ganna do.

My eccentric mate did this in our poker group once. Him and the guy who often finishes first were the only ones left in the hand towards end game. They had already been raising each other considerably. There were two Queens on the river (clubs and diamonds) a king, 3 and 8 all of clubs, so a possible easy flush (4 clubs on the river). Timmy looked Reidy in the eye and said straight faced "I have a Queen and another good card,", he had guessed reidy had a high club. It took Reidy an age to decide how to play it, it had proper un-nerved him. In the end reidy believed timmy had a queen but reidy himself had a jack of clubs and wanted to risk that timmy didnt have the ace. He matched his large raise. It turned out that timmy had a king. He took it all on a full house. In psyking reidy out, and trying to make him gamble on him not having the ace, he had made an excetionally good poker player forget that the full house was even an option. It was masterful!

I have no problem telling my opponents what my strategy is because casual pick up games are supposed to be fun, I don't feel like trying to game my opponent just so I can grab some slight advantage. People that do this are generally dbags.

In a tournament keep your mouth shut and know your rules.

 Ailaros wrote:

Because it's not objective, inevitably it winds up being extremely subjective, which drags the semantics along with it. Psychology means whatever anyone wants it to mean, and when you have that kind of epistemological positivism in your pocket, you now have an unfalsifiable statement of faith, not a statement of objective reality.

This is the crux of it right here.

A competent player will remove psychology from the equation. Determining and executing the optimal play for a given situation will work out far more often than attempting to mind game your opponent into making a sub-optimal play.

In poker, you don't know what hand your opponent is holding - and he doesn't know what you're holding. This allows for psychology since, even with a sub-optimal hand, you can still win by convincing your opponent that this isn't so.

Warhammer has no such ambiguity. You know exactly what models are on the field, how far they can shoot, where they can move, what they can do. Sure, there are some judgement calls: maybe the other player won't go for that objective, maybe he will - a skilled player will analyse the facts and make his play not based on what he expects his opponent to do, or what his opponent expects him to do, but rather the move that leaves him in the best possible position regardless.

And, you know, the whole GAMBLING thing. Warhammer is about gauging risk/reward above anything else, I think.

@Ryan_A

I think the main problem with this thread is that people naturally think themselves immune to psychology when in fact it is those subtle things, those small conversational tidbits that absolutely can have an impact on a game. I think your average player thinks themselves too intelligent to fall for such "tricks" when in fact, intelligence has little to do with the equation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are rock paper scissor tournaments...where thousands of dollars rest on the line and the best players will end up in the top brackets every year.

But that example rests more on reactionary tactics.

40k is a list building game. Its not hard to out-think someone in poker if you can choose your own cards (and some people dont get access to them all). The psychology then becomes "Do i play a royal flush every hand?"

Some people enjoy being undefeated with a huge pile of wins, but to say that, "I chose to play powerful hands, so i must have tapped into some hidden knowledge that people who choose to play inferior hands dont understand" seems a bit daft to me.

That is the state of the game, there is nothing wrong with the guy who wants to play the royal flush every game, just like there is nothing wrong with the guy who plays a low flush because he "likes the way it looks". But, no matter how you bet, the outcome is fairly easy to predict. (Even if someone chooses to fold and not play the game).

This is the origin of the popular cry for balance.

I play BA so I play a pair every game, or high card if I rake my sanguinary guard :-p.

This has been my advantage in gaming for so long that around my local group, there's an axiom that goes "Don't listen to anything he suggests [while playing]."

Outside of playing, I'm completely forthright. But in the game, I'm so full of Jedi-mind tricks that not even I know when I'm being serious or not.

I play the player, not the game.

Well, I assume you occasionally throw some good advice in there, otherwise your opponents would always just do the opposite of whatever you say.

Yeah, I just don't know when it is anymore.

This thread has simply convinced me that I am doomed to always get my a** handed to me by serious players.

Bantha poodoo.

DarknessEternal wrote:Yeah, I just don't know when it is anymore.

Hmm, an indecipherable rubric.

You know, one of the things you could do before giving advice is to always roll 3D6 and make a point of consulting a secret table (or secret blank piece of paper), before giving advice, to create the illusion that it's validity is based on a random chance with indeterminate odds.

Plus, the look on your opponent's face when he asks you a question, and then you roll three dice, wait for a moment, and then say "yes" would be pretty choice.

pantheralegionnaire wrote:This thread has simply convinced me that I am doomed to always get my a** handed to me by serious players.

Heh, don't worry. 40k is a dice game with no fog of war. Though perhaps if you believe in psychology enough, perhaps it might just become true. For you, at least.