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So I know Fantasy has a lot of support as far as fan made Army books go for the races and kingdoms not represented by GW. I was wondering if anyone has ever home brewed their own Codex for an army they would like to see in 40K?

I've been thinking of a way to put Skaven into the 41st millennia. I know in the early editions Skaven had a small representation, but I would like to make a fan made Codex for them. So does anyone have any experience in this? What are some good ways to balance out making my own rules?

Never done it.

I've seen people field Skaven as an army in 40k, using either Tyranid or Dark Eldar rules. Mantic makes some pretty cool Skaven-in-space models, actually.

I've tried implementing major changes to an ork codex and playtested it with good results. But didn't invent a new codex. Some people like doing this - returning squats or inventing rules for some races not represented in a tabletop game currently.

I've debated it a few times honestly. Lost and the Damned. It's the army concept that appeals to me most honestly. I grabbed the old minidex, some fandexes from previous editions, and even compared it to other dexes for a decent number in each unit but ended up taking a break because of some technical problems. the biggest problems are is it is just plain too difficult to easily balance.

You can't just look at it on a model to model basis. You have to look at it in a how would this work against these armies and how against similar models and, the more difficult part, how it meshes with different units.

All the time.

It's how I while away the hours when I'm super-bored and no steam-sales are in sight.

I haven't, but I've playtested and corrected a couple of my friends' ideas. Problem is, the friends I have who write codices rarely have any semblance of balance (either way), and have skill level extremely disparate with mine, so my playtesting proves nothing.

Yes. Though it's soon to be two editions out of date. Too big of a project and it's not like I was doing it as anything other than a mental exercise anyway.

I did some work on a Movie Chaos Marine codex.

Then I realised how pointless it was and decided to make a fluff (Subject to headcanon!) mod for Retribution.

I've used and made a ton of fan-codexes for my battles. None of them are balanced, but because they're more for fun than for competition, it's good enough for me.

I occasionally dabble in writing up 40K rules for StarCraft models.

Maybe one day I'll compile enough of them to make a codex...

I made a "mercenary" army list back in 2nd Edition. I put in a lot of flexibility in weapon selection and loosened up what was the IG's equivalent to a FOC (only one tank per infantry squad, etc) added a unit of guys in scratch-built heavy powered armor (because I didn't quite understand the tech situation in the IoM back then) and tossed in a few special rules that were slightly less impressive than the rules that were in the published codecii. What I wound up with looked a lot like a contemporary meltavet IG army, but played infinitely worse. My first opponent tabled me by turn three. I had never been tabled before in 40K. Understandibly, I haven't tried to make another codex since then.

I personally have not, but a friend of mine made a Covenant codex from Halo. Even formatted it up like an official product with images and flavor text and everything. I have played against it many times and really have no issue with it. If anything it leans towards underpowered a lot of the time.

Kind of plays like IG (cheap infantry/artillery tanks) crossed with Eldar (some elite units with interesting wargear and special rules). I guess that's about how you would expect it to go honestly.

Protoss are kinda' problematic if you try to stay true to their canon capabilities-

Basic infantry are basically Jedi dual wielding power weapons with shields that can tank a squad's worth of firepower and run at near supersonic speeds (and that's before mentioning they've got an upgrade that lets them teleport assault into their enemy's faces) who's blades can carve up tanks with ease.

Every single non-robotic model is basically a psiker (though most of them are only "brotherhood of psikers" level psikers that can only use it for squad powers they can get as upgrades) but have no "perils of the Warp" equivalent.

Any Khalahi model would have a ATSKNF equivalent plus Adamantium Will thanks to their connection to the Khalah (that thing even protects them against bioweapons! ).

Sounds fairly awesome until you realize what this actually means- you can either price them fairly based on these abilities, in which case they would be extremely expensive models that won't pay back their price against most armies and would therefore suck, or you could try and price them in a way that would make them competitive but would be undercosted for all these extra abilities they're getting, making them hated and "overpowered" in most people's eyes...

Here's a Few Ideas I've had so far

(HQ) Pack Lord Ws-6 Bs-4 S-4 T-4 W-4 I-6 A-4 Ld-9
Comes with a 4+ armor can be upgraded to a 3+ armor
If you upgrade him to the 3+ armor you can take a Squad of Storm Vermin as a Troop Choice
Comes standard with a Warp Stone Pistol str 3 ap 3 and a rusty Blade (standard CC weapon)
Has accuses to a Plasma type pistol as well as a Power Claw or Power Weapon

(HQ) Greyseer Ws-3 Bs-3 S-3 T-3 W-2 I-6 A-3 Ld-9
Level 2 Psyker standard
Can take Warp Stones for 5 points each (max 4) when the Geryseer eats a warp stone he must pass a LD check or suffer a perils of the warp.
If the Greyseer passes it gains one warp charge counter ( this will probably change with the new psyker phase)
Greyseers can know up to 4 Psyker powers.
Comes standard with a 4+ inv save.

(elite) Storm Vermin Ws-4 Bs-3 S-4 T-3 W-1 I-5 A-2 Ld-8
- Scrap Power Armour (3+ save)
- Warp Stone Machine Pistols 24" Str 3 Ap 3 Rapid Fire

(troops) Clan Rat Ws-3 Bs- 2 S-3 T- 3 W- 1 I -5 A-1 Ld-7
- Autogun and Scrap Armor (5+ save)
- Don't trust the Pack ( Works like animosity in O&G WHFB book however is ignored if the units contains 10 or more Rats)

Still working on point Values.

Theres nothing stopping you from doing it with your friends

Statline I wrote up for a Zealot:

Zealot
Infantry (5-10 models, 25pts per model)
WS | BS | S | T | A | W | I .| Ld | Sv
. 5.. |. 4 . | 4 |. 4 | 3 |. 1 .| 4 | 8 . | 4+

Wargear:
Protoss Energy Shield: 4+ Invulnerable save, Feel No Pain (5+)
2 Psi Blades (bonus from dual wielding included in statline): Strength user AP 3, Rending

Special Rules: Fleet, One With the Khala (ATSKNF+Adamantium Will), Move Through Cover.

Upgrades:
Cybernetic Enhancements (5 points per model): Always runs maximum distance, my run and assault on the same turn.
Precognition (2 points per model): May re-roll misses in assault.
Psionic Charge (10 points per model): Squad adds 6" to assault range, counts as having Assault Grenades, is not subject to Overwatch.

4++ FNP 5+ is supposed to be about as effective as 3+ against smallarms on average but would be more vulnerable to S8 weapons than a 3++, and Protoss vehicles with this same wargear would only gain the benefits of the 4++ and thus not be quite as insane as they would be if this was a 3++.

Things I'm not sure about: WS may drop to 4, Cybernetic Implants may just double regular movement distance instead of that whole running thing, Precognition may switch from re-rolls on misses to re-rolls on saves (or possibly re-rolls on enemy hits).

Not sure about point costs and unit sizes... Statswise they're faster Marines with more attacks and slightly better survivability, Adamantium Will, no ranged weapons and powerful melee weapons. Should probably cost 20-25 points per model and come in squads of 5-10. Upgrades is where it gets messy- precog is straightforward enough- probably 2-3pts per model, but Cybernetic Enhancements turn them into jump infantry lite which is harder to quantify (how much do jump-packs cost? Maybe that -1/-2?). Psionic Charge is the big one however- giving such melee beatsticks this kind of bonus to assaulting should be rather expensive (5 per model? More?) and should be limited to once per turn via requiring the expenditure of the squad's psionic power point (and making it unusable if a character without this power or one that has no psionic power points available to spend on it joins the unit).

Thoughts?

EDIT: Nerfed psi-blades, added point costs.

Come to the proposed rules side, we have cookies.

"Have you ever made your own Codex for Casual play?"

I do it all the time. It is probably the part I enjoy the most: creating rules for new stuff or fixing things that people say are broken.

Hard to find people to try them with though.

I've written and played with 3 fandexes, use custom characters all the time and now am writing a whole wargame system which has just started alpha testing... so yeah, I have.

We have a 40k Proposed Rules forum if you want feedback from fluff/rulemongers about your ideas, btw, for those that mostly hang around this forum.

 Galorian wrote:
Statline I wrote up for a Zealot:

Zealot
Infantry
WS | BS | S | T | A | W | I | Ld | Sv
5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 8 | 4+

Wargear:
Protoss Energy Shield: 4+ Invulnerable save, Feel No Pain (5+)
2 Psi Blades: Strength user AP 2, when assaulting a vehicle user may forgo all attacks this assault phase to strike once with the Armorbane USR

Special Rules: Fleet, One With the Khala (ATSKNF+Adamantium Will), Move Through Cover.

Upgrades:
Cybernetic Enhancements: Always runs maximum distance, my run and assault on the same turn.
Precognition: May re-roll misses in assault.
Psionic Charge: Squad adds 6" to assault range, counts as having Assault Grenades, is not subject to Overwatch.

4++ FNP 5+ is supposed to be about as effective as 3+ against smallarms on average but would be more vulnerable to S8 weapons than a 3++, and Protoss vehicles with this same wargear would only gain the benefits of the 4++ and thus not be quite as insane as they would be if this was a 3++.

Things I'm not sure about: WS may drop to 4, Cybernetic Implants may just double regular movement distance instead of that whole running thing, Precognition may switch from re-rolls on misses to re-rolls on saves (or possibly re-rolls on enemy hits).

Not sure about point costs and unit sizes... Statswise they're faster Marines with more attacks and slightly better survivability, Adamantium Will, no ranged weapons and powerful melee weapons. Should probably cost 20-25 points per model and come in squads of 5-10. Upgrades is where it gets messy- precog is straightforward enough- probably 2-3pts per model, but Cybernetic Enhancements turn them into jump infantry lite which is harder to quantify (how much do jump-packs cost? Maybe that -1/-2?). Psionic Charge is the big one however- giving such melee beatsticks this kind of bonus to assaulting should be rather expensive (5 per model? More?) and should be limited to once per turn via requiring the expenditure of the squad's psionic power point (and making it unusable if a character without this power or one that has no psionic power points available to spend on it joins the unit).

Thoughts?

haha yes!!! I love SC

 Galorian wrote:
Statline I wrote up for a Zealot:

Zealot
Infantry
WS | BS | S | T | A | W | I | Ld | Sv
5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 8 | 4+

Wargear:
Protoss Energy Shield: 4+ Invulnerable save, Feel No Pain (5+)
2 Psi Blades: Strength user AP 2, when assaulting a vehicle user may forgo all attacks this assault phase to strike once with the Armorbane USR

Special Rules: Fleet, One With the Khala (ATSKNF+Adamantium Will), Move Through Cover.

Upgrades:
Cybernetic Enhancements: Always runs maximum distance, my run and assault on the same turn.
Precognition: May re-roll misses in assault.
Psionic Charge: Squad adds 6" to assault range, counts as having Assault Grenades, is not subject to Overwatch.

4++ FNP 5+ is supposed to be about as effective as 3+ against smallarms on average but would be more vulnerable to S8 weapons than a 3++, and Protoss vehicles with this same wargear would only gain the benefits of the 4++ and thus not be quite as insane as they would be if this was a 3++.

Things I'm not sure about: WS may drop to 4, Cybernetic Implants may just double regular movement distance instead of that whole running thing, Precognition may switch from re-rolls on misses to re-rolls on saves (or possibly re-rolls on enemy hits).

Not sure about point costs and unit sizes... Statswise they're faster Marines with more attacks and slightly better survivability, Adamantium Will, no ranged weapons and powerful melee weapons. Should probably cost 20-25 points per model and come in squads of 5-10. Upgrades is where it gets messy- precog is straightforward enough- probably 2-3pts per model, but Cybernetic Enhancements turn them into jump infantry lite which is harder to quantify (how much do jump-packs cost? Maybe that -1/-2?). Psionic Charge is the big one however- giving such melee beatsticks this kind of bonus to assaulting should be rather expensive (5 per model? More?) and should be limited to once per turn via requiring the expenditure of the squad's psionic power point (and making it unusable if a character without this power or one that has no psionic power points available to spend on it joins the unit).

Thoughts?

Great, now I feel obliged to make zerg rules. Protoss can't have all the fun.

 Melissia wrote:
We have a 40k Proposed Rules forum if you want feedback from fluff/rulemongers about your ideas, btw, for those that mostly hang around this forum.

Trust me, I'd post everything I've made there, but I'm a little nervous about getting negative feedback. Not that I'd lash out at anyone for telling me I've done it wrong, I just never seem to get it right.

 Glorywarrior wrote:

 Galorian wrote:
Statline I wrote up for a Zealot:

Zealot
Infantry
WS | BS | S | T | A | W | I | Ld | Sv
5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 8 | 4+

Wargear:
Protoss Energy Shield: 4+ Invulnerable save, Feel No Pain (5+)
2 Psi Blades: Strength user AP 2, when assaulting a vehicle user may forgo all attacks this assault phase to strike once with the Armorbane USR

Special Rules: Fleet, One With the Khala (ATSKNF+Adamantium Will), Move Through Cover.

Upgrades:
Cybernetic Enhancements: Always runs maximum distance, my run and assault on the same turn.
Precognition: May re-roll misses in assault.
Psionic Charge: Squad adds 6" to assault range, counts as having Assault Grenades, is not subject to Overwatch.

4++ FNP 5+ is supposed to be about as effective as 3+ against smallarms on average but would be more vulnerable to S8 weapons than a 3++, and Protoss vehicles with this same wargear would only gain the benefits of the 4++ and thus not be quite as insane as they would be if this was a 3++.

Things I'm not sure about: WS may drop to 4, Cybernetic Implants may just double regular movement distance instead of that whole running thing, Precognition may switch from re-rolls on misses to re-rolls on saves (or possibly re-rolls on enemy hits).

Not sure about point costs and unit sizes... Statswise they're faster Marines with more attacks and slightly better survivability, Adamantium Will, no ranged weapons and powerful melee weapons. Should probably cost 20-25 points per model and come in squads of 5-10. Upgrades is where it gets messy- precog is straightforward enough- probably 2-3pts per model, but Cybernetic Enhancements turn them into jump infantry lite which is harder to quantify (how much do jump-packs cost? Maybe that -1/-2?). Psionic Charge is the big one however- giving such melee beatsticks this kind of bonus to assaulting should be rather expensive (5 per model? More?) and should be limited to once per turn via requiring the expenditure of the squad's psionic power point (and making it unusable if a character without this power or one that has no psionic power points available to spend on it joins the unit).

Thoughts?

Great, now I feel obliged to make zerg rules. Protoss can't have all the fun.

Made ones for Hydralisks, Zerglings and Roaches, possibly Ultralisks as well a few months back. I'll try and find/recreate them tomorrow if I don't get buried by my QM homework...

I have not, but I someday do want to make a fan codex for Genestealers Cults, as many others have done. I may branch out and make it a specific Cult, like a Tau specific Cult. I'll wait until I have more free time on my hands though, rather than busy busy with other things and projects.

 SkavenLord wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
We have a 40k Proposed Rules forum if you want feedback from fluff/rulemongers about your ideas, btw, for those that mostly hang around this forum.

Trust me, I'd post everything I've made there, but I'm a little nervous about getting negative feedback. Not that I'd lash out at anyone for telling me I've done it wrong, I just never seem to get it right.

Negative feedback is useful. You don't have to do everything the people there say (some people there have stupid ideas about the lore or game balance/mechanics, just like YMDC and Background), but being able to recognize faults is important.

Feedback from others is about getting stuff right, and most often helping each other design good stuff.

I enjoy all feedback, and understand that this an online forum. and some people aren't practiced at giving constructive criticism.

I may do it some day, just because of my own chapter's love of flying things like jump packs, a stretch version of the Land Speeder Storm in place of Battle Company Rhinos, and the occasional wyvern for the Chapter Master... then there's the associated Guard regiment and their love of things like running their fan boats through their home planet's swamps and salt marshes and taming the dinosaurs and crocodilian critters for use in battle. (Yes, an entire reigment based on swamp people. There's also the Sororitas order, who like the above Space Marine Chapter and IG regiment are plucked from the swamp folk on this... well, swampy, marshy death world.

 Galorian wrote:

 Glorywarrior wrote:

 Galorian wrote:
Statline I wrote up for a Zealot:

Zealot
Infantry
WS | BS | S | T | A | W | I | Ld | Sv
5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 8 | 4+

Wargear:
Protoss Energy Shield: 4+ Invulnerable save, Feel No Pain (5+)
2 Psi Blades: Strength user AP 2, when assaulting a vehicle user may forgo all attacks this assault phase to strike once with the Armorbane USR

Special Rules: Fleet, One With the Khala (ATSKNF+Adamantium Will), Move Through Cover.

Upgrades:
Cybernetic Enhancements: Always runs maximum distance, my run and assault on the same turn.
Precognition: May re-roll misses in assault.
Psionic Charge: Squad adds 6" to assault range, counts as having Assault Grenades, is not subject to Overwatch.

4++ FNP 5+ is supposed to be about as effective as 3+ against smallarms on average but would be more vulnerable to S8 weapons than a 3++, and Protoss vehicles with this same wargear would only gain the benefits of the 4++ and thus not be quite as insane as they would be if this was a 3++.

Things I'm not sure about: WS may drop to 4, Cybernetic Implants may just double regular movement distance instead of that whole running thing, Precognition may switch from re-rolls on misses to re-rolls on saves (or possibly re-rolls on enemy hits).

Not sure about point costs and unit sizes... Statswise they're faster Marines with more attacks and slightly better survivability, Adamantium Will, no ranged weapons and powerful melee weapons. Should probably cost 20-25 points per model and come in squads of 5-10. Upgrades is where it gets messy- precog is straightforward enough- probably 2-3pts per model, but Cybernetic Enhancements turn them into jump infantry lite which is harder to quantify (how much do jump-packs cost? Maybe that -1/-2?). Psionic Charge is the big one however- giving such melee beatsticks this kind of bonus to assaulting should be rather expensive (5 per model? More?) and should be limited to once per turn via requiring the expenditure of the squad's psionic power point (and making it unusable if a character without this power or one that has no psionic power points available to spend on it joins the unit).

Thoughts?

Great, now I feel obliged to make zerg rules. Protoss can't have all the fun.

Made ones for Hydralisks, Zerglings and Roaches, possibly Ultralisks as well a few months back. I'll try and find/recreate them tomorrow if I don't get buried by my QM homework...

Post em up! I want to see them... (Make them better than toss, toss are better in SC, so make zerg better in WH.

 Glorywarrior wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

 Glorywarrior wrote:

 Galorian wrote:
Statline I wrote up for a Zealot:

Zealot
Infantry
WS | BS | S | T | A | W | I .| Ld | Sv
. 5 . |. 4 . | 4 |. 4 | 3 |. 1 | 4 | 8 . | 4+

Wargear:
Protoss Energy Shield: 4+ Invulnerable save, Feel No Pain (5+)
2 Psi Blades: Strength user AP 2, when assaulting a vehicle user may forgo all attacks this assault phase to strike once with the Armorbane USR

Special Rules: Fleet, One With the Khala (ATSKNF+Adamantium Will), Move Through Cover.

Upgrades:
Cybernetic Enhancements: Always runs maximum distance, my run and assault on the same turn.
Precognition: May re-roll misses in assault.
Psionic Charge: Squad adds 6" to assault range, counts as having Assault Grenades, is not subject to Overwatch.

4++ FNP 5+ is supposed to be about as effective as 3+ against smallarms on average but would be more vulnerable to S8 weapons than a 3++, and Protoss vehicles with this same wargear would only gain the benefits of the 4++ and thus not be quite as insane as they would be if this was a 3++.

Things I'm not sure about: WS may drop to 4, Cybernetic Implants may just double regular movement distance instead of that whole running thing, Precognition may switch from re-rolls on misses to re-rolls on saves (or possibly re-rolls on enemy hits).

Not sure about point costs and unit sizes... Statswise they're faster Marines with more attacks and slightly better survivability, Adamantium Will, no ranged weapons and powerful melee weapons. Should probably cost 20-25 points per model and come in squads of 5-10. Upgrades is where it gets messy- precog is straightforward enough- probably 2-3pts per model, but Cybernetic Enhancements turn them into jump infantry lite which is harder to quantify (how much do jump-packs cost? Maybe that -1/-2?). Psionic Charge is the big one however- giving such melee beatsticks this kind of bonus to assaulting should be rather expensive (5 per model? More?) and should be limited to once per turn via requiring the expenditure of the squad's psionic power point (and making it unusable if a character without this power or one that has no psionic power points available to spend on it joins the unit).

Thoughts?

Great, now I feel obliged to make zerg rules. Protoss can't have all the fun.

Made ones for Hydralisks, Zerglings and Roaches, possibly Ultralisks as well a few months back. I'll try and find/recreate them tomorrow if I don't get buried by my QM homework...

Post em up! I want to see them... (Make them better than toss, toss are better in SC, so make zerg better in WH.

Zergling (troops)
Infantry (10-20 models, must be taken in pairs)
WS|BS| S | T | A | W | I | Ld| Sv
. 3 | 2 .| 4 | 3 .| 2 |. 1 .| 4 | 7 | 5+
Wargear: Scythe Blades (AP5), Hardened Chitin (Sv5+)
Special Rules: Fearless, Fleet, Move Through Cover
Upgrades:
- Burrow: Gains the Infiltrator USR, Shrouded when Gone to Ground.
- Reinforced Chitin: Sv4+.
- Hardened Blades: AP4.
- Adrenal Glands: +1 Attack.
- Metabolic Boost: Can assault on a turn where the unit ran.
- Can take one of the following:
--> Raptor Strain: Type changes to Jump Infantry.
--> Swarmling Strain: Maximum unit size increases to 30 (upgrade cost per whole unit).

Hydralisk (troops)
Infantry (3-10 models)
WS|BS| S | T | A | W | I | Ld| Sv
. 4 | 4 .| 4 | 4 .| 2 |. 2 | 4 | 8 | 5+
Wargear: Scythe Blades (AP5), Hardened Chitin (Sv5+)
- Needle Spines (modes of fire):
--> 24" S4 AP4 Salvo 4/2, Rending, Poison 5+
--> 24" S4 AP4 Heavy 4, Skyfire, Rending, Poison 5+
Special Rules: Fearless, Fleet, Move Through Cover
Upgrades:
- Burrow: Gains the Infiltrator USR, Shrouded when Gone to Ground.
- Reinforced Chitin: Sv4+.
- Hardened Blades: AP4.
- Grooved Spines: +6" range.

Roach (elite)
Beast (1-3 models)
WS|BS| S | T | A | W | I | Ld| Sv
. 3 | 3 .| 5 | 5 .| 2 |. 3 .| 3 | 8 | 3+
Wargear: Armored Chitin (Sv3+), Armored Claws (AP 3), Acid Saliva 18" S X AP3 Assault 3 Poison 3+, Glances vehicles/buildings on a 3+
Special Rules: Fearless, Move Through Cover, IWND (automatically succeeds roll to regain wound if gone to ground)
Upgrades:
- Burrow: Gains the Infiltrator USR, Shrouded when Gone to Ground.
- Tunneler: Must have the Burrow upgrade, gains the Deepstrike USR, no mishap
- Honed Claws (AP2)
- One of the Following:
--> Corpser Strain: A model killed by Acid Saliva spawns a Roachling
--> Vile Strain: Units hit by Acid Saliva count as being in difficult terrain until the start of its next turn

Ultralisk
Gargantuan Monstrous Creature
WS|BS| S | T | A | W | I | Ld| Sv
. 3 .| 3 .| 9 | 9 .| 4 |. 6 .| 2 | 10| 3+
Wargear: Armored Chitin (Sv3+), Kaiser Blades (AP1 Armourbane)
Special Rules: Fearless, Move Through Cover, IWND, Adamantium Will, Rampage
Upgrades:
- Burrow: Gains the Infiltrator USR, Shrouded when Gone to Ground.
- Chitinous Plating: Sv2+.
- Burrow Charge: Add 6" to charge range, target cannot Overwatch.
- One of the Following:
--> Tarrasque Strain: If this model loses its last wound do not remove it from play. It is dead and cannot act, but may continue to roll for IWND and if it regains a wound it returns to life and may act normally.
--> Noxious Strain: During the assault phase, after assault moves are made but before challenges are made and blows are struck, any enemy model within 5 inches of a Noxious Ultralisk (both in and out of assault) is hit by a S X AP5 Poison 4+ attack.
---------> Noxious Blast: On a turn a Noxious Ultralisk charged units that are locked in combat with it are hit by a concentrated blast of toxic vapors, the models thus affected are hit by S X AP4 Poison 3+ instead of the above.

EDIT: added wound to Hydralisk, nerfed Roach acid but gave it a 3rd shot and changed type to beast (melee weapon and upgrade also added).