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 Psienesis wrote:

jhe90 wrote:
If you used mostly servitors, machinery and such?

A brain dead robot cannot be turned by chaos gods, yes tech preist can but a strongly cybernetic and robotic force may stand better odds. Use a modified grey knights class cruiser with full warding, n such.

There are daemons that take the form of malefic code that can, and do, possess machines. Mindless creatures also cannot summon the force of will to resist the corrupting effects of the Warp, so what happens is all your servitors and robots start growing tentacles and twisting into mutated forms. Worse, some gain sentience... murderously malefic sentience.

And then they become killbots of the 41st millenium.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of which, I now want a Chaos Knight.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A large enough Imperial incursion could probably sweep out the majority of traitors hiding out in the eye.

But that's not tenable for the Imperium right now. The amount of resources they would have to expend to do that would pretty much cripple their military on a galactic scale. They'd be at the mercy of every other xenos out there.

A large enough Imperial incursion would rapidly be defeated as a third of the loyal troops turn to chaos, a third go stark raving mad, and the remaining third is cut to pieces by the local inhabitants and the first third.

The single third that didn't turn to Chaos or go stark raving mad would be enough to crush all opposition in the Eye.

Such is the scale of the Imperium.

So the loyal third is capable of defeating not only the traitorous third but also all the Chaos forces?

The maths do not compute.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A large enough Imperial incursion could probably sweep out the majority of traitors hiding out in the eye.

But that's not tenable for the Imperium right now. The amount of resources they would have to expend to do that would pretty much cripple their military on a galactic scale. They'd be at the mercy of every other xenos out there.

A large enough Imperial incursion would rapidly be defeated as a third of the loyal troops turn to chaos, a third go stark raving mad, and the remaining third is cut to pieces by the local inhabitants and the first third.

The single third that didn't turn to Chaos or go stark raving mad would be enough to crush all opposition in the Eye.

Such is the scale of the Imperium.

So the loyal third is capable of defeating not only the traitorous third but also all the Chaos forces?

The maths do not compute.

And that insane third.

Mellow wrote:
Someone should tell the Necrons to build loads of Pylons. That might shrink it down over a period of time, right?

Problem is they don't care.

This. Necrons are fully immune to the Warp itself and cannot be corrupted by Chaos in any way - as basically, they are soulless machines. On the other hand, why would they care? Chaos does exactly what they want: the total extinction of all life. If Chaos triumphs over the IoM, the entire galaxy collapses and the Necrons, or rather their leaders, the C'Tan, will greatly appreciate exploiting the other races weakness and reap their souls. Tyranids will feed on the chaos as well, leading, eventually, to a total destruction of the entire universe as we know it. And the C'tan fulfilled their ultimate goal.

So all in all, Necrons don't have any reason to actively stand up against Chaos as long as they keep doing what they're doing: murder and destruction.

 Ashiraya wrote:

So the loyal third is capable of defeating not only the traitorous third but also all the Chaos forces?

The maths do not compute.

In fairness, the third that don't turn traitor would likely be those of stronger will and have had greater training (such as Stormtroopers, Sisters of Battle and Space Marines). Still, I think two-thirds being incapacitated or turned is unlikely. One would imagine that in a dedicated campaign they'd primarily be enacting Exterminatus rather than landing (though in the Abyssal Crusade the Space Marines seemed to be landing on planets so who knows).

Selym wrote:And that insane third.

They'd presumably be fighting both sides (or doing nothing in particular or whatever).

Sigvatr wrote: If Chaos triumphs over the IoM, the entire galaxy collapses and the Necrons, or rather their leaders, the C'Tan, will greatly appreciate exploiting the other races weakness and reap their souls. Tyranids will feed on the chaos as well, leading, eventually, to a total destruction of the entire universe as we know it. And the C'tan fulfilled their ultimate goal.

As of the 5th Edition Necron Codex the Necrons have overthrown the C'tan and shattered them into weaker Shards. They no longer (generally at least) serve them; neither do most want to exterminate all life.

Besides that, even before the 5th Edition Codex the C'tan never wanted to kill everything. They wanted to farm living beings. Chaos triumphing over the galaxy would put the C'tan in a bad position anyway; their control over the Materium would mean less when the Immaterium seeps through.

 Bludbaff wrote:
Regarding the strength of the Imperium, while it may be stronger than everyone else, its major flaw is that the impenetrable bureaucracy means it can't reliably bring that strength to bear on less than a decade's notice. The Imperium may be theoretically more politically unified than the Orks, but in reality it's every bit as divided into petty fiefdoms and factions. The major advantage is that internal struggles are mostly waged with words rather than bolts.

The only faction that the Imperium could definitely wipe out if they chose to is the Tau. The Orks are too dispersed throughout the galaxy to bring decisive force to bear on them. The Necrons are much the same, but with the added disadvantage that the Imperium can't even find them unless they're already mobilized for war. The Eldar are far too good at hiding, whether moving craftworlds to avoid discovery or skulking in the Webway. The Imperium may be able to wipe out the Tyranids, but without any way to estimate their numbers beyond the galactic rim they'd never know until one side or the other was already on the verge of destruction. And Chaos can't be effectively attacked in its strongholds, and even if it could it springs up secretly on dozens of worlds every day.

Basically this and this was the reason why the Emperor was trying to make a human webway. There is a lot of mis-communication and misunderstandings that happen in the Imperium from them ever standing as full unified front like they were at the time of the Great Crusade. I think the Great Crusade even shows what humans can do once united but that isn't the grim darkness of the far future.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A large enough Imperial incursion could probably sweep out the majority of traitors hiding out in the eye.
But that's not tenable for the Imperium right now. The amount of resources they would have to expend to do that would pretty much cripple their military on a galactic scale. They'd be at the mercy of every other xenos out there.

A large enough Imperial incursion would rapidly be defeated as a third of the loyal troops turn to chaos, a third go stark raving mad, and the remaining third is cut to pieces by the local inhabitants and the first third.

The single third that didn't turn to Chaos or go stark raving mad would be enough to crush all opposition in the Eye.
Such is the scale of the Imperium.

but the third that didnt turn would be the same size as the third that turned.

around 30k the combined might of man was greater than at any point in clear history. The combined18-20 SM legions, Guard Legions, Legio Cybernetica, and Legio Titanica were far more powerful than anything the IoM could muster in 40k. The problem is when half a force turns, it doesnt matter how large the force was to begin with.

30k. Good times. No one had turned traitor, the race was united. The Great Crusade had destroyed nearly every race they had come across that stood against Humanity.

Then it all went wrong and basically as long as The Eye and The Maelstrom exist, there can be no victory.

Mellow wrote:
30k. Good times. No one had turned traitor, the race was united. The Great Crusade had destroyed nearly every race they had come across that stood against Humanity.

Then it all went wrong and basically as long as The Eye and The Maelstrom exist, there can be no victory.

#grimdark

The ironic part is that the only means of destroying chaos definitively would be to eradicate all psychically active species, thus starving chaos of the negative emotions that fuel their demonic powers. Thus humanity finds itself in a Catch-22 where-by chaos will inevitably corrupt all of humanity so long as war is waged against it. The more blood is spilled by the IOM the stronger Khorne becomes.

Put ontop of that the upcoming evolutionary change that is accelerating across humanity where-by more and more humans are becoming psychics. As humanity slowly drifts towards an eldar-like existence of psychic affinity more and more portals to chaos are opening across the imperium, and creating more war, more slaughter, more blood for the blood throne.

So currently the defensive tactics used by the IOM at Cadia are a delaying tactic. Since chaos cannot be defeated by martial means (because Chaos is the manifestation of the dark impulses of humanity) no invasion could ever succeed decisively/

In a very not Grim-Dark way the moral of the 40k universe is actually: "In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future there is Only War, Unless Every Species Finally Chooses to Settle their Differences Through Consensus Building and Peaceful Mediation."

Love the Heretic
Hug the Mutant
Shower the Unclean

Devious wrote:
The ironic part is that the only means of destroying chaos definitively would be to eradicate all psychically active species, thus starving chaos of the negative emotions that fuel their demonic powers.

Why is this such a common perception?

Chaos has the means to sustain itself by harassing the Tau, or non-sentient species with its daemons.

Heck, the daemons alone could probably keep themselves going for a few million years.

Add in the possibility that WHFB is an alternate reality that the warp can reach to, and chaos wins by default.

I'm curious why the IOM doesn't spend every waking moment of their lives lobbing those "Teraton" missles they have, or even the much more believeable triple-digit megaton beasts into every planet in the eye they can find.

It's not like, at the IOM's scale, the materials or science is particularly difficult. They even talk of having cloaked kill-ships they use specifically for spying. Just attach some warp-cloaked nukes on those things, and start dousing every planet worth a damn with nuclear fire.

In other news, I would actually love to see a plot where a Necron dynasty partners with either liberal Mechanicum elements or Dark Mechanicus to make something beastly.

Imagine the Mechanicus trading some Pariah-related tech [Since Humanity has more experience with Pariahs than the Necrons, presumably, even if their anti-warp in general is much less impressive] or Dark Mechanicus explaining their technology is exchange for.. absolutely anything.

I'd trade quite a bit for a Cairn-class ship..

Because no doubt the warp would chew them up and spit them back out as Chaos infested missiles.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Because no doubt the warp would chew them up and spit them back out as Chaos infested missiles.

If the imperium could find out what the Tyranid will chase, they could send the bait into the EOT, and have the Tyranid follow.

Similarly do the same with Orks, but we know the bait would just be a promise of endless battle and weapons. They would just have to find a way to spread the word fast amongst the orks.

Doesn't quite work like that, in the fluff.

As said, they even have killships specifically used for venturing into the Eye and similar territories.

An alternative is just to fire Nova cannons into the Warp Storm.

You can easily predict where a planet will be, so planning a firing solution isn't all that difficult.

True, but the effective range on such weapons wouldn't be more than a few hundred thousand miles, far to short to actually hit a planet without being more or less next to it.

Ferros wrote:

You can easily predict where a planet will be, so planning a firing solution isn't all that difficult.

The reason the Imperium has difficulty with the EoT, is the reason why that statement is utterly incorrect.

The EoT is a breach in reality where these things no longer exist:

-Space
-Time
-Distance
-Sanity
-Physical Matter
-Non-Physical Matter
-Logic
-Coherency

-- 8 reasons why Khorne laughs at spaceships.

The eye of terror supports perpetual motion theory!

 welshhoppo wrote:
The eye of terror supports perpetual motion theory!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxHkAQRQUQ

but not in the warp


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Ferros wrote:
I'm curious why the IOM doesn't spend every waking moment of their lives lobbing those "Teraton" missles they have, or even the much more believeable triple-digit megaton beasts into every planet in the eye they can find.

It's not like, at the IOM's scale, the materials or science is particularly difficult. They even talk of having cloaked kill-ships they use specifically for spying. Just attach some warp-cloaked nukes on those things, and start dousing every planet worth a damn with nuclear fire.

Getting into the eye is no easy task and is not a guarenteed success even with small cloaked craft. You need the most skilled navigators and the rarest, most difficult to produce tech. Mass production is not an option.

Yeah, to defeat Chaos Mankind has to overcome its own darker impulses, much like the Eldar have had to (and it cost them their empire before they learned).

As for the Eye of Terror, since that is essentially a huge warp storm, and the Warp is basically seething emotions, perhaps it can be becalmed if enough Buddhist priests meditate around it sending their peace and harmony its way?
(Now to find buddhist priests in 40K...)

Chaos isn't just something that destroys the minds of those who are weak-willed. It is pretty much a disease for all intents and purposes.
No army that is vulnerable to the warp could ever march in. Chaos forces can always just withdraw and turtle up into the EoT and be more or less completely safe.

Heck, I'm pretty positive Tau forces who marched into the EoT would fall to chaos. You don't need to have a psychic presence to fall to chaos; just a soul.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that a splinter fleet that flew into the EoT would come out completely mutated and daemon-infused. Not fallen to chaos, just be completely possessed by daemons.

Anyone besides the Grey Knights wouldn't last in an extended campaign in the EoT. They'd go crazy. Especially the millions of Guardsmen required.

Last time the IoM sent Space Marines into the Eye almost all of them became CSM. So it just makes your situation worse.

 Harriticus wrote:

Last time the IoM sent Space Marines into the Eye almost all of them became CSM. So it just makes your situation worse.

I came to the conclusion that most of them died and some of those who survived longer turned. That was partially due to being abandoned by the Imperium though. In this situation it would be a unified effort. Presumably there would be a great deal of planning about how to reduce influence of Chaos. Besides that, those Space Marines who turned generally seemed to have landed planetside (for some reason). If all you were trying to do was eradicate the forces of Chaos you'd likely be primarily using Exterminatus grade weapons.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:

Last time the IoM sent Space Marines into the Eye almost all of them became CSM. So it just makes your situation worse.

I came to the conclusion that most of them died and some of those who survived longer turned. That was partially due to being abandoned by the Imperium though. In this situation it would be a unified effort. Presumably there would be a great deal of planning about how to reduce influence of Chaos. Besides that, those Space Marines who turned generally seemed to have landed planetside (for some reason). If all you were trying to do was eradicate the forces of Chaos you'd likely be primarily using Exterminatus grade weapons.

On teleporting, semi-incorporeal daemon worlds?

Okay.

 Selym wrote:

On teleporting, semi-incorporeal daemon worlds?

Not all of them are like that.

But they're all in a place where being a physical existence is like choosing what to wear.

pm713 wrote:
But they're all in a place where being a physical existence is like choosing what to wear.

The Eye of Terror does not completely eschew the laws of the Materium. It is an area of overlap, not the raw Warp. Daemons there are not immune to conventional weaponry. Otherwise the mortal forces in the Eye would be unable to make any difference unless they were powerful Psykers. Neither would the Space Marines of the Abyssal Crusade or Tuska Daemonkilla's Waagh! have gone as far as they did.

People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.

True, but the eye is a place where you can die and are reborn! Death is only the beginning when you are trapped in that purple blemish of hell. You might exterminate a planet but an identical one might take its place if the gods were offended enough. Plus destroying an entire planet? Not even an exterminatus can do that. It requires enough power to overcome the force of gravity.