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Thanks noremac, I think my irk comes more from my frustration at not having the disposable income that I'd like to spend on this hobby (other commitments) but yeah more entry products would be awesome. Units that were cheap, game legal basic models easy to build and paint and a good way of developing tactics before upgrading to cooler more detailed minis with maybe minor rule perks which make them more appealing without unbalancing its base stats/abilities.

I just think they should have more kits similar to Dark Vengeance. Easy to assemble and cheap to produce, but limited to no options for war gear. Although, as a hobbyist myself, I find that those types of models are the most fun to kitbash. :3


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I just think that they need more things similar to Dark Vengeance. Easy to assemble models, but lower quality and cheaper. Limits war gear options and personalization ability, but for entry level it is perfect. Wouldn't even need to give the more detailed kits any extra in-game perks. The true hobbyists will still buy them.

Playing at a GW is just absolute gak-tier wargaming.

FLGS is a lot better, but best of all is a gaming club. All the gaming with absolutely none of the selling aspect.

Ah, unfortunately, there is no Gaming Club in my local area which I am aware of. But I do agree, a Gaming Club seems to be the cream of the crop.

Theres a club nearby that plays regular tournaments however there's a strict no FW/Apoc/Esc rule which whilst not the end of the world would make my flyerless codex quite challenging to use.

Getting back to the other point. Maybe they could even make a generic range of basic models which most armies could take like space marines already are. I know lots of people who buy cheap snap fit DV tactical marines to pad out their armies.

 Noremac wrote:

*You should note, just like Unbound lists, your opponent HAS to agree to it. You can't just play Escalation without you both agreeing to play. If you choose to not play Escalation you should see no difference, except for the fact that it is there if you choose to play it.

Your post is the first I've heard of this - I was under the impression that both are included and at the largest events (GTs etc.) The only "opt-out" would be to not play

 Noremac wrote:
Good points, znelson.
But to clear up any confusion, when they roll Escalation into the new BRB it will do two things.
1) Make the overall game cheaper. [You now need 1, not 2, books just to play Escalation.]
2) Make everything more compact and easy. [See above reason.]
*You should note, just like Unbound lists, your opponent HAS to agree to it. You can't just play Escalation without you both agreeing to play. If you choose to not play Escalation you should see no difference, except for the fact that it is there if you choose to play it.

Sorry bub but that is wishful thinking. If i want to take a Revenant Titan I can whether you like it or not. The only thing you have a say in is if you still want to play. Its on the official FoC now (Lord of War) and refusing to play against a titan is the same as refusing to play against triple riptides, or screamer star or (insert ridiculously OP unit/formation/vehicle). Just like Imperial Knights. If I want one in my list there is nothing you can do about it but refuse to play the game.

 Xerics wrote:

 Noremac wrote:
Good points, znelson.
But to clear up any confusion, when they roll Escalation into the new BRB it will do two things.
1) Make the overall game cheaper. [You now need 1, not 2, books just to play Escalation.]
2) Make everything more compact and easy. [See above reason.]
*You should note, just like Unbound lists, your opponent HAS to agree to it. You can't just play Escalation without you both agreeing to play. If you choose to not play Escalation you should see no difference, except for the fact that it is there if you choose to play it.

Sorry bub but that is wishful thinking. If i want to take a Revenant Titan I can whether you like it or not. The only thing you have a say in is if you still want to play. Its on the official FoC now (Lord of War) and refusing to play against a titan is the same as refusing to play against triple riptides, or screamer star or (insert ridiculously OP unit/formation/vehicle). Just like Imperial Knights. If I want one in my list there is nothing you can do about it but refuse to play the game.

That's what I more so meant. Sure, tournaments can allow whatever they see fit, but I am not a tournament player, nor will I ever be. If you are looking for balanced, don't play a 40k tournament. Simple as that. I'll I'm saying is that as a casual player myself, I won't play against anyone that uses Escalation or Unbound lists if I don't want to. Just how when 6e first hit, most casual players would refuse to play against flyers in my local meta.

... Well, it's all well and good for casual play with my friends, but I also *very* much like getting out of my bubble and playing with other groups and at formal events.

Unless GW increases the cost of all LoW units by 50÷, their cost/power relationship simply isn't equivalent to other 40k units.

Furthermore escalation introduced blast weapons with a radius so large they almost always hit the intended target... So for 550 points my Bainblade can nominate a unit and every model will die on a 2+. Let's not forget our Necron with large blast stomp.

Escalation is so badly written you can take the D weapons and all that out entirely and the game is still ruined.

If 6 months from now that stuff is standard, GW has lost my business on a permanent basis. End of story.

I just say simply ignore it. Who cares?

Anyone who enjoys competitive play in environments where they can't dictate the terms of play.

GW has essentially made rules that (if you like playing an army with high point cost models) make your army unplayable in a competitive scenario. How can you justify paying for paladins when the whole unit is guaranteed to get hit by a s9 ap2 Apocalypse blast weapon. No balance at all. No common sense even.

Because you could be spending your money on a better product that doesn't require you to hand hold or list tailor to your opponents expectations?

Because if I spent $85 on the BRB, $50 on Codes Eldar, $50 on escalation ( this will be required, they won't be putting specific super heavy units rules in the core rule book), and $300 on a Titan to just the have everyone else say "No" I'd be upset.

$500 will buy me into up to three different games with complete rules and armies.

I have 3 and change 40k armies. I would love to play them in a fair game. And not spend a fortune in new rules to do so. More so rules that require further trouble shooting.

znelson wrote:
Anyone who enjoys competitive play in environments where they can't dictate the terms of play.

GW has essentially made rules that (if you like playing an army with high point cost models) make your army unplayable in a competitive scenario. How can you justify paying for paladins when the whole unit is guaranteed to get hit by a s9 ap2 Apocalypse blast weapon. No balance at all. No common sense even.

Guaranteed... I see the problem.. You're flinging out generalities, and crying becuase GK aren't as OP as they were when they first came out.

Personally, if it's a tournament, then house rules go. Simple as that. Think we've established that several times over.

Competitive FLGS play? I will happily bring any GW authorized units (including FW but not experimentals), and if you refuse to play me, I will chalk you down as another victory for me. This isn't a political race with budget/donation restrictions. You can't say "Okay, every 40k player can only spend $1000 a year." If I pay for it and it's approved, I'm using it or you lose by default.


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Note, that's "Competitive FLGS play". I have a few buddies I play for laughs, and we talk about lists before-hand.

@Pyeatt,
You can't justify it as a win if there was never an intent to play? I can't take a group of 4 friends and say, "We challenge the Los Angeles Lakers to a game of basketball."
-Welp, they didn't show up to a game they never agreed to play, looks like we won.
---
But in a more serious manner, anybody who uses Lords of War in a regular game of 40k is just somebody I don't want to play with. If I agree to play with them and THEN they decide to bring that stuff, sure. Mark it as a win.
But this is the scenario I am talking about:

*Approached by fellow gamer at a Gaming Club*
"Hey, are you interested in playing a game?"

"Possibly, what army are you fielding, and are you using any Escalation rules?"

"I am fielding Ultramarines with an Imperial Knight ally and a Forgeworld Titan as my Lord of War."

"Goodbye."
---
In that scenario, you can't just chalk it as a win. Come on.

Noremac, the conceded victory I was referring to was more tuned to the situation you mentioned of "Agreed to play, showed up.. oh is that a unit I don't like? I'm going home."

 Pyeatt wrote:

Guaranteed... I see the problem.. You're flinging out generalities, and crying becuase GK aren't as OP as they were when they first came out.

Speaking of generalities, my comment was not about GK at all. Many units are expensive because they are highly survivable.

When you can obtain weapons for a low cost that nullify this survivability, the unit is no longer worth the high cost.

No offense, but I wasn't speaking about how YOU play. I was speaking in a broader technical sense about how a small amount of inept game design can impact "high value" units in any codex.
This imbalance is a FACT of escalation.

If all you have to say is that you plan to use the unbalanced rules to claim victories over players who actually think about the rules of the game they're playing, you could have saved the time and not written the post.

I am 100% on znelson's side here. If you have half a mind you know that the Escalation rules are total BS. And that's for Warhammer 40,000, a game who's rules are already total BS.

 andywalker07 wrote:
The only place I have to play is my store and I buy stuff there to do my bit to keep it in business, I wouldn't expect it to run for free. I do get other bits from eBay though it's helped me loads.

Good to see another wolf brother, I find the problem is only a few builds work and buying anything else is a waste, I still remember the sad moment when the penny dropped that blood claws were redundant after I spent a week painting them. Ooff.

No worries, GH have pistols and chain swords so you can just pass off all your Blood Claws as GH. In fact, I never put bolters on my Wolves because then I can run all my squads as whatever I want them to be. Granted I don't bother with pack markings though.

 andywalker07 wrote:
Well Flinty, as it happens the players at my group are pretty sound but the manager is more inflexible.

Don't play the manager then.

Noremac wrote: for Warhammer 40,000, a game whvss rules are already total BS.

I would generally agree, Unfortunately this moves it from "that rule is bs, but I can cope" to organized competitions are a waste of time.

I spend money on GW products because it's a good game and I want to see it continue. If GW is no longer producing a product I am interested in, I can bit torrent the books and use the armies I have with friends who want to play the edition/rules of our choice.

I hope the loss of revenue and outcry is so substantial that they quickly realize they are producing garbage.

znelson wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:

Guaranteed... I see the problem.. You're flinging out generalities, and crying becuase GK aren't as OP as they were when they first came out.

Speaking of generalities, my comment was not about GK at all. Many units are expensive because they are highly survivable.

When you can obtain weapons for a low cost that nullify this survivability, the unit is no longer worth the high cost.

No offense, but I wasn't speaking about how YOU play. I was speaking in a broader technical sense about how a small amount of inept game design can impact "high value" units in any codex.
This imbalance is a FACT of escalation.

If all you have to say is that you plan to use the unbalanced rules to claim victories over players who actually think about the rules of the game they're playing, you could have saved the time and not written the post.

Gee if only there were a way to combat all your expensive elites getting knocked a run down on the ladder... Maybe use MSU? I used my titan against Imperial guard and lost because there were just too many guys to shoot at. 1500 points and the only vehicle he had was a Valk. I couldn't keep him from every objective as I was only able to delete 2 units a turn with the titan. It was a 1500 point game and the titan alone was over 60% of the points. That leaves you with not much left to fill in and with so many MSU you can't kill em all.


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Not to mention he did take off 6 hull points with random grenades and the Valk getting an explosion result with a Pen.

 MWHistorian wrote:
And this is why GW is stagnating. It's simply too much for many new players.
Something like a budget Dark Vengence box set would be a great way to get new players.


Oh, and have a game that's remotely balanced so the new guy doesn't show up with his rubbish Blood Angels and gets slaughtered every time.

I agree 100%. "hey, want to play this neat looking wargame? Great! OK, You're going to need to spend around $250USD minimum, and the game itself is a tedious, 4 hour slog of poorly written and confusing rules that require - at a minimum - 3 different rulebooks. Pick carefully, or else you'll have an army that will almost always lose. Shall I ring you up?"

Codexes with lots of units aren't the ones that will suffer. If you read my post, i'm speaking about things like terminators, bloodcrushers, stealth suits, etc.

These units have high point costs because they usually survive multiple shooting attacks. Lists that used to rely on those types of units will no longer be as effective. Given how poorly Escalation was written, I doubt GW fully appreciated the impact it.

Guard would be one of the codexes that won't be effected. Their models have T3 W1 Sv5+. They don't pay for the survival that LoW compromise.
.



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Ouze wrote: OK, You're going to need to spend around $250USD minimum, and the game itself is a tedious, 4 hour slog of poorly written and confusing rules that require - at a minimum - 3 different rulebooks. Pick carefully, or else you'll have an army that will almost always lose. Shall I ring you up?"

I actually just posted in another thread about this. In sales/marketing there's a huge emphasis on the cost/value (really customer perceived value) relationship.

$250 to play a great game is perfectly acceptable, but if the product is trash, over time no one will buy it.

I started playing in 3rd ed. 4th brought a lot of changes and IMHO the game is more troubled than ever. GW really needs to refocus on the customer experience.

 andywalker07 wrote:
*complaints*

Games Workshop is simply not a hobby that will adapt itself to your tastes. If you make the choice to be a current edition 40k gamer be prepared to suffer through fast edition changes, consistently and almost incredibly high prices, your material becoming outdated or underpowered all the time, corporate bs seeping through into the Hobby, and a condescending staff.

I have made the choice that despite being a fan of the IP and the Hobby to not be involved in current Warhammer. Many other games and media gives me much greater satisfaction, particularly when it comes to considering the bang-per-buck. While I personally enjoy playing the occasional match (mostly older editions) and buying the rare miniature that strikes me as interesting, I can't imagine joining my FLGS and getting an official army with the current edition...

TL;DR: My best advice is to quit, or (if you really, really love Warhammer and are willing to fork over the dough) forget about your lumps because none of it is ever getting better.

If GW made expensive good stuff it would be fine but they make expensive crap which is why they are bleeding customers.

The "we are a model making company" line is BS, they sell models for a game system and if the game is not fun the models no matter how nice are worthless.

GW make rules to sell models not to make a fun game and that's why gamers are moving to x-wing and war machine.

 Flinty wrote:
Given the flexibility thats available within the game, its not just a game mechanics problem if a newbie with an unoptimised list comes up against a veteran with the opposite. If you only find people in your area who want to trounce the newcomers, then yes it will be hard to get into the game. I would suggest that is the same in any hobby/sport/whatever.

Let say a veteran doesn't want to trounce a new player. How is he suppose to do that. If he is a veteran he has an optimised list , so is he suppose to start a bad army just to play against noobs ?

Makumba wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Given the flexibility thats available within the game, its not just a game mechanics problem if a newbie with an unoptimised list comes up against a veteran with the opposite. If you only find people in your area who want to trounce the newcomers, then yes it will be hard to get into the game. I would suggest that is the same in any hobby/sport/whatever.

Let say a veteran doesn't want to trounce a new player. How is he suppose to do that. If he is a veteran he has an optimised list , so is he suppose to start a bad army just to play against noobs ?

The veteran handicaps himself. One easy way is to take less points.

That being said, I unfortunately agree with the OP and the tone of the responses: stop investing in 40k and try something else. There's a lot better games out there, you just may have to put a little work into finding some people to play with at first.

 slowthar wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Given the flexibility thats available within the game, its not just a game mechanics problem if a newbie with an unoptimised list comes up against a veteran with the opposite. If you only find people in your area who want to trounce the newcomers, then yes it will be hard to get into the game. I would suggest that is the same in any hobby/sport/whatever.

Let say a veteran doesn't want to trounce a new player. How is he suppose to do that. If he is a veteran he has an optimised list , so is he suppose to start a bad army just to play against noobs ?

The veteran handicaps himself. One easy way is to take less points.

That being said, I unfortunately agree with the OP and the tone of the responses: stop investing in 40k and try something else. There's a lot better games out there, you just may have to put a little work into finding some people to play with at first.

This +1

I've pre-ordered the rules as 40k is still the game i have the most stuff for, with warmahordes in 2nd place. One of the things that is hard to grasp at first, but then gets easier, is saying "no" to the whole thing.

To the OP:

Personally build your collection to where you want it to be and then stop, and move on to other games and put 40k into the "just for lulz" box. Its a shame to a degree but one must remember variety is the spice of life or even jump on whfb if you still want to do GW (the game is far better balanced: and exmaple of what happens when things say still for a while).


Clubs are the best, at mine i never really know what system i might be playing unit we all organise things for the gaming night.


However when i go into my local GW i have to be very careful lest i mention the other games i play! some don't like it troll along i say

hobojebus wrote:
If GW made expensive good stuff it would be fine but they make expensive crap which is why they are bleeding customers.

The "we are a model making company" line is BS, they sell models for a game system and if the game is not fun the models no matter how nice are worthless.

GW make rules to sell models not to make a fun game and that's why gamers are moving to x-wing and war machine.

Sure, most people buy Games Workshop products for their line of games, but there models themselves are actually a very good price. Look at any other competitive model out there. GW models have the best price by far. Why pay $70 USD for the new Cygnar Sword Knights (A 10 Man Squad) that come in White Metal and have no modeling options when you can pay $40 USD for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (A 10 Man Squad) that comes in plastic and has so many extra bits that your bits drawer jumps with glee. Most people forget about that. When you are paying for a Games Workshop model you aren't just paying for the model itself, but the countless extra bits that come with it.


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And for the record, they are some of the best models on the market. Almost all of Games Workshop's models are damn gorgeous.

Makumba wrote:

Let say a veteran doesn't want to trounce a new player. How is he suppose to do that. If he is a veteran he has an optimised list , so is he suppose to start a bad army just to play against noobs ?

Well, according to GW, you just have a collection of models, and can build whichever list you like each time you play. You can take different models - you don't have to always take the hard-hitting ones. You don't have to take all your army. You don't have to play at 1850 all the time.

The idea that you have just one optimised TAC list, and that is all you ever play with, is an invention of the tournament/competitive world, and not something GW promotes.

 Noremac wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
If GW made expensive good stuff it would be fine but they make expensive crap which is why they are bleeding customers.

The "we are a model making company" line is BS, they sell models for a game system and if the game is not fun the models no matter how nice are worthless.

GW make rules to sell models not to make a fun game and that's why gamers are moving to x-wing and war machine.

Sure, most people buy Games Workshop products for their line of games, but there models themselves are actually a very good price. Look at any other competitive model out there. GW models have the best price by far. Why pay $70 USD for the new Cygnar Sword Knights (A 10 Man Squad) that come in White Metal and have no modeling options when you can pay $40 USD for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (A 10 Man Squad) that comes in plastic and has so many extra bits that your bits drawer jumps with glee. Most people forget about that. When you are paying for a Games Workshop model you aren't just paying for the model itself, but the countless extra bits that come with it.


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And for the record, they are some of the best models on the market. Almost all of Games Workshop's models are damn gorgeous.

Bull.

10 space wolves are £23 or a single resin model of arjac is £15 made from material that costs them 13 pence a gallon.

They charge you based on how often your going to buy that unit not on what it costs to make they are ripping you off if you buy direct and frankly even if you buy from a third party seller with 25% off retail.

You can get bigger plastic models with same level of detail cheaper in any model shop, its just because its GW they rip you off because they claim to be the best model company out there and its not true anymore.