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So I was reading some of the heresy books and skipped all those that do not have to do with a primarch I like. Went back and read dark apossile or something like that about the poor sobs who drive the ships through the warp. So if they start getting weak the emperor sends them to be eaten up body heart mind and soul slowly and painfully to keep his beacon working. They get killed by the thousand to keep his ships moving and for he can talk away to other people. Jeeze he is like china you work til your dead and before you die we going to through you in the fire to make it burn brighter. Also you get paid in emperor bucks they are just like real dollars just can't be spent anywhere . A forced draft if the marines wants you and if you can't get in there they chuck your ass into guards.

So the question is what type of goverment is the Emperor " Communism, Dictatorship, Totalitarian, Theocracy , Monarchy?

Anyone else see how evil they marines are?

Oh off topic if the Chaos marines live in the warp"eye of terror" and see the warp all the time why do they need astropaths?

The Emperor is a tyrant, a benevolent tyrant who does what must for the survival of the species he has guided for 38,000 years by the time of thr Heresy. He's not afraid to sacrifice the few to save the many, even if the few numbers in the billions.

The Emperor is Dead! Long live The Emperor!

Seriously, though, He is a Lich King seated on a Golden Throne of Skulls, consuming the souls of His children. And it's all involuntary, despite the fact that He caused it all to happen.

Is He evil? Probably not. Is His empire evil? Not necessarily, as it has preserved the Human species 10,000 years longer than would have occurred without His efforts. Or one could say His efforts caused over 10,000 years of misery for the Human species. Both concepts are true.

SJ

This is 40K, everyone is evil or insane, usually both.

Psykers caused the last fall of humanity so the emperor knows they have to be controlled or all he's working towards will fall once more.

A small number suffer so trillions can live in safety.

Not evil just ruthless.

The whole imperium is completely fethed up. It's just less fethed up than most alternatives.

The Imperium is the way of survival.

Any other way of doing things (with the possible exception of worship of the Machine-God) would result in the extinction of mankind.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Imperium is the way of survival.

Any other way of doing things (with the possible exception of worship of the Machine-God) would result in the extinction of mankind.

Are the upper echelons of the AdMech still technically human?

Technically, yes,as there are still human minds in the software of the Fabricator General and his/her immediate underlings... but for all intents and purposes, they are far, far more machine than man now.

The Emperor does not eat Navigators to power the Astronomican, as Navigators are not psykers in the normal sense of the word. Navigators are a genetic strain of humans with the ability to perceive the Warp through the third eye in their foreheads, not sure this gives them the spark of energy the Astronomican requires. What he does eat, though, are weak psykers.

ETA: But, in 40k, everyone is evil. There is no "white" in the shades of 40K, only very dark greys and black.

It is a very valid point. The Emperor is clearly a corporatist or even a fascist. Consider his view. He clearly sees humanity as a whole and the individual is merely a cog in the machinery. If millions must be sacrificed to serve some 'greater end' then he will not hesitate. He is happy to kill innocents to make a point or ensure the survival of others.

Take for example the planet the Word Bearers had turned into an Emperor-worshipping centre. The Emperor has Guilliman wipe out the civilisation with extreme violence. The people have done nothing but what the Word Bearers encouraged them to. They are clearly innocent but the Emperor has them smashed.

For him survival is the only aim and the overall fate of humanity is the only goal. If he has to kill entire planets or sacrifice millions to the Astronomicon then so be it.

His fascist tendencies are there to see: a strong leader principle (Fuhrerprincip if you prefer), obsession with rationality and 'progress' at all costs, racial 'purity' as an aim in itself, aggressive conquering foreign policy, militarism, regarding individuals as simply cogs in a machine that are irrelevant except insofar as they help the overall 'machine' work, cold-blooded destruction of 'inferior' or 'undesirable' elements in society. The list goes on.

What is interesting is what would have happened if he had not died. What would the Imperium be like under a living Emperor instead of what lesser mortals think he would want. The Heresy books imply it might have been a highly technological and rationalist society probably with very progressive economics but with a complete refusal to accept any dissent and a willingness to use absolutely brutal force against enemies both within and without, slaughtering the innocent as well as combatants. Citizens would live well so long as they don't criticise or dissent when they will bring down terrible wrath.

But as someone said it's 40K and everyone is at very best morally ambiguous if not downright misguided or evil. It is the grim darkness after all!

Turn off the golden throne. Let his spirit ascend to the warp. .. as the "primordial creators" who are referenced many times in books but utterly fail to manifest anything. Maybe the putrid stagnation of the 40k time line can be saved

 landcruiserlarry wrote:
Turn off the golden throne.

Except if the Emperor dies then the Astronomican dies with him. The IoM would collapse overnight since interstellar travel would become nigh on impossible, and Terra itself would be swallowed by the Warp since the Golden Throne is also all that is keeping the gate into the Webway that exists directly under the Palace shut.

As others have said, the IoM is bad but the alternatives for humanity are much much worse.

I still don't really understand what the Emperor is. Is he a being of some ancient race similar to the C'tan? A benevolent god from the Warp like the opposite of Nurgle, Khorne, etc?

Edit: Nevermind, apparently he is the result of thousands of ancient psyker shamans who were reincarnated into one being.

I'd say define what you consider evil.

Personally I don't think he's evil not nice but not evil..

What is evil, anyway?
Is there reason to the rhyme?
Without evil, there can be no good.
So it must be good to be evil sometimes.

I'm so glad nobody here speaks in riddles.

"Cough, cough."

I don't think that many people in the 40k verse are black and white (except for daemons).

 Happyjew wrote:
What is evil, anyway?
Is there reason to the rhyme?
Without evil, there can be no good.
So it must be good to be evil sometimes.

South Park. You've been caught!

Meanwhile, at the Legion of Chaos...

I dont think the The Emperor is evil but extremely jaded, its alluded that for many many millennia he tried to guide humanity down a path of peace and propsperity from the shadows and inspired/became the source of several religions. Unfortunatly in time his teaching were twisted and used to once gain humanity fell to its on vicious ways.
Come the 30th or so millennia, Big E has had enough, he takes to the field . For all to see and drags humanity by the scruff of its neck since they wont listen. Unfortunatly it seems he got to wrapped up in saving humanity lost his in the process, I think that was his downfall. But its like other say, as the most powerful human to ever exist he did what he felt was needed to save the race as a whole.

there is no good in 40k. only shades of grey and black

 Greenizbest wrote:
I still don't really understand what the Emperor is. Is he a being of some ancient race similar to the C'tan? A benevolent god from the Warp like the opposite of Nurgle, Khorne, etc?

Edit: Nevermind, apparently he is the result of thousands of ancient psyker shamans who were reincarnated into one being.

In the very original days of 40K the story was that back in the mists of time all the world's shamans got together to decide how to deal with the threat of the rapidly increasing numbers of psykers. They decided to commit mass suicide so all their souls would enter the warp together and join into a super soul with the power of all humanity's shamans. This soul was then born again in Anatolia as the Emperor and he lived among humanity for millennia before revealing himself.

Added to this he once had sons called something like Grigori or Illuminati etc. I can't remember. These have been retconned as there was supposedly a secret society that tracked down the Emperor's sons and was trying to round them all up to sacrifice them and create a new emperor or somesuch.

As I say this was ages ago but now they have dropped most of this and left the Emperor mysterious.

To be honest, much as in the real world, I'm not too sure the idea of "good" and "evil" in the traditional sense even exist in 40k. And interestingly, that is fairly realistic, insofar as pure "good" and "evil" seldom exist in the real world as well (there are a few exceptions, but not many). For the most part, point of view plays a significant role.

In 40k, Chaos certainly trends evil in most iterations (it doesn't always start that way, but inevitably seems to get there). Dark Eldar do as well. Beyond those two though, most of the other factions aren't necessarily "evil" - malevolent certainly, horrifying to those of us with a human mindset, yes, but not evil in the true sense of the word.

From my point of view, the Emperor is first and foremost a ruthless pragmatist. He does what is necessary for the survival and flourishing of the human species. He also generally knows exactly what is necessary thanks to his considerable powers. I'm not totally convinced he wouldn't tolerate, if alive, dissent in the "free speech" sense of the word. Certainly armed dissent is ruthlessly crushed, but I'm not sure general "political speech" would be as punished as people seem to think.

It's also important to note that even under the Emperor, but especially now, the Imperium is not a particularly strong central authority. Much is made in discussions of how "brutal" a regime the Imperium is, but the fact of the matter is, so long as the taxes (tithe) in manpower and treasure are paid, most planets are left almost entirely to their own devices. For some worlds, this may be a brutal regime, but for others, it may be an egalitarian democracy. Yes, at the High Lords of Terra level, human life is necessarily another resource that is reduced to numbers in an Empire spanning a million worlds. But it is not at all apparent to me from the fluff that this holds true for, say, Planetary Governors or Sector commanders or other officials who have boots on the ground and have a more manageable purview.

I think it's important to keep in mind that as brutal as the 40k universe is, there are undoubtedly countless trillions of humans who are born on Civilized Worlds and who live their lives, aside from the occasional regimental founding, relatively free from war and from interference from Terra.

I think the closest hing to "good" in 40k are Tau or Eldar. Tau cause of the whole greater good thing and Eldar cause they don't usually go out of their way too attack other races. Imperium of Man is all "Purge the Xenos!" attitude which boils down to 0 cultural tolerance. Orks are pretty neutral. All they want to do is fight... don't really have an agenda there...

 Xerics wrote:
I think the closest hing to "good" in 40k are Tau or Eldar. Tau cause of the whole greater good thing and Eldar cause they don't usually go out of their way too attack other races. Imperium of Man is all "Purge the Xenos!" attitude which boils down to 0 cultural tolerance. Orks are pretty neutral. All they want to do is fight... don't really have an agenda there...

You could think that, of course, but you'd be wrong. If a Farseer sees that a given colony of... doesn't matter who, really... will in someway be responsible for the death of a Craftworld or an Eldar Enclave in five thousand years, the Eldar will wipe out that colony today. With extreme prejudice.

The Tau? The Tau are a caste-based imperialist society who will have all other races join the Greater Good (under them), or will exterminate those who refuse to join (like the Ork and the Tyranid).

 Psienesis wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I think the closest hing to "good" in 40k are Tau or Eldar. Tau cause of the whole greater good thing and Eldar cause they don't usually go out of their way too attack other races. Imperium of Man is all "Purge the Xenos!" attitude which boils down to 0 cultural tolerance. Orks are pretty neutral. All they want to do is fight... don't really have an agenda there...

You could think that, of course, but you'd be wrong. If a Farseer sees that a given colony of... doesn't matter who, really... will in someway be responsible for the death of a Craftworld or an Eldar Enclave in five thousand years, the Eldar will wipe out that colony today. With extreme prejudice.

The Tau? The Tau are a caste-based imperialist society who will have all other races join the Greater Good (under them), or will exterminate those who refuse to join (like the Ork and the Tyranid).

Well seeing as how the eldar are slowly going extinct the preservation of eldar lives is most precious. IoM kills their own people with extreme prejudice. Grey Knights for example. They would kill you without a 2nd thought. Besides its not like the IoM have thousands of planets with trillions of people on each of them. They breed faster then rabbits.

Point being, the Eldar will most certainly go out of their way to attack other races, if it serves the Eldar's goals.

The Imperium is much the same way. People die for a reason, sometimes in very great numbers, but there is always a reason for those deaths.

 ashcroft wrote:
Except if the Emperor dies then the Astronomican dies with him. The IoM would collapse overnight since interstellar travel would become nigh on impossible, and Terra itself would be swallowed by the Warp since the Golden Throne is also all that is keeping the gate into the Webway that exists directly under the Palace shut.

Entire civilizations used to believe that if you didn't make constant human sacrifices the world would end. It's best to view the emperor as just another barbaric superstition of that type: countless innocents are slaughtered for nothing more than the sheer willful ignorance and stupidity of the Imperium's rulers.

lol with the imperial guard tactics they end up killing themselves anyways. If the Eldar thought the humans were killing themselves faster there would be no need to attack them...

Everyone in 40k is basically Nationalistic, so yeah.