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**Auswin**

Wyches worked best for me as a way to tie down terminators for long periods of time. Throw 10 into a squad of TH/SS and they'd tie them up for at least two turns.

I'm hoping the dodge save works against overwatch, but that's probably hoping for too much. If they don't keep mass haywire they'll almost never see the table for me.

**Ribber**

Red Corsair wrote:

Moopy wrote:
I don't remember ever being dealt grievous wounds from a round of overwatch. Maybe 1-2 models tops, and that's hardly worth worrying about.

Well thats fine for you, but some of us play against massed twin linked and wall of flame up the wazoo opponents making them dead on arrival.

Tesla too does terrible things to my byches, every single time. I, and my opponents, always felt they should get their dodge save against overwatch, as it *is* in the close combat phase and they would be doing *exactly* what their dodge save describes as they twist and tumble into finger-nails-in-the-eyballs range.

If even a few of these rumors are true, it's feeling very lackluster. Sorely disappointed to go into my GW and not be able to ensure I get the set of cards. Left my new wracks and hammie sitting on the counter and walked out empty handed instead. My failcast hammies and wracks have been sufficient so far, I suppose they will continue to be.

**Auswin**

FWIW, the new Haemy model is beautiful and took no more than 10 mins to assemble. It's an excellent sculpt and a surprisingly well-designed model that I thought would be way worse to put together than I was.

I too am waiting on wracks. The new kit is great, but if they don't come with FNP stock they'll get shot up before they can do anything.

I'm still cautiously optimistic, of course I was half-expecting Incubi to get creamed and be AP3 or something. The rumored change to racks could make a raider full of shardcarbine Trueborn a huge fire unit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just noticed this on GW.com: Did they change the fluff for Hellions? I didn't think it said this before.

"Hellions are airborne killers. Feral Dark Eldar, they descend upon their prey in a flurry of hooked blades before hurtling away to safety. Hellions ride to war upon skyboards, single-pilot anti-gravity boards, and pump their systems full of combat drugs. They are crazed terror troops who swoop into the midst of the foe, screaming curses and severing limbs with their murderously sharp hellglaives."

I could be wrong and maybe it always said this, but as a fluff fan I'd love to see them move away from the "gangs of teenagers" bs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another change that could be interesting.

Urien Rakarth: "he carries a variety of strange weapons to war including a blade that can kill with the slightest scratch."

He didn't have a special blade in the old dex, just a flesh gauntlet.

**Sidstyler**

lol...there's sharp, and then there's murderously sharp, apparently. Because if you're only wielding a sharp blade then you're not going to murder people as hard as one that's "murderously" sharp. Kinda makes me wonder if there's like a grading system in the Dark Eldar slave foundries where all this crap is produced, and they punish you if you make a sword that's not determined to be "murderously" sharp.

It's like after the Space Wolves character Murder McMurder equipped with Murder from the planet Murder (who was also feral and crazed and practically uncontrollable, because I guess everything in 40k has to be), they don't know any other way to describe things anymore to make them sound threatening or scary. Too bad GW doesn't make a Citadel branded dictionary or thesaurus that they can provide to their writers. Personally though I like to think Kirby is standing over their shoulders going "No, terrible, needs more murder or the kids won't like it."

If I were a crazy sword-wielding maniac I would inscribe the word "murder" on my blade so it would murder people even harder.

In all honesty though it's probably not new, but I hardly ever use their website anyway and never read the fluff bits on units either, since I assume it's all copy/paste, so I can't really say one way or the other. I just can't help but think there must be some other way to describe a blade than "murderously" sharp.

**Red Corsair**

Posted by glnngu at the dark city

I got a chance to flip through the book for about half an hour last saturday. Dun ask me how my friend got his hands on it but he did.

I played a bit of beastpack and that's was the first thing I checked. Beastpack is max 12 model in the unit chosen from any mix of Beastmaster, Khymera, Flock or Fiend. I was mostly focused on Khymeras. It got Daemon and Fleet(?) instead of invul 4+ save. Its also T4 and 10 pts. Overall I think beastpack deathstar is dead Sad although the unit 'could' still be good as MSU.

On initial read, my impression was WTF!!!

On second read, there were some potential upsides - some of which were pointed out earlier. I will list the ones that jumped out at me and correct some of the rumors that did not seem right.

The PfP is pretty much what the rumors says. Turn 1 - nothing. Turn 2 - FnP 6+. Turn 3 - FnP 5+. Turn 4 - FNP (5+) and furious charge. Turn 5 - FNP,Furious Charge and fearless. Turn 6 - all of the prev plus rage.

Archon can take Arcane Gear. In the Arcane Gear section, it listed stuff like bikes, hellion skyboard, beastmaster skyboard and .... and spirit proble and the webway portal. I didn't see a limit on how many you can take so I assume the Archon can take as many as he wants. The key point here is it looks like Archon can be on a bike now/skyboard now and take spirit probe and webway portal. This opens up some new possibilities.

Spirit probe improves FNP by 1 max 4+. Equiping Archon with this will net us FnP 4+ potentially on turn 2. I saw a couple of entries where a character improves the bonus you get from the turn by 1. I think it was Urien and / or Haemy. So in Turn 1 we could get FnP 6+ and turn 2 we get FnP 5+ and improve by 1 from Spirit probe.

Next up was the webway portal. If my memory serves me right, it allows deep strike with unit/and vehicle with no scatter. I would imagine Archon is turning into the Deep Stike for loan much like the Space Wolves Drop Pods. Question would be who will the Archon bring?

One candidate is the Archon Court. It works much like beastpack. Max is 12. Can take any combos of Sslyth, Merdusaes etc. Merdusaes has template for the eye blast. Think it was S4 AP3? If you bring 12 of them.. well... now ... you could template a lot of infantry. Another candidate is 12 Sslyth WS4, S5, T5, 2W and 3 attacks. If they get 4+ FnP... could be quite good.

On webway portal, I don't remember if it is limited to DE only. I think it is not. So this opens up even more possibilities with Eldar.

Deepstriking Archon + Seer Council?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + Sslyth? Masssive melee?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + Sslyth + medusae? Masssive melee + a few flamers?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + 10 Groteques?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + 10 Groteques + second archon tanking Shadow field with all of them at 4+ FnP (except Baharroth)?

I think the key here is you do not need a vehicle. So you could potentially bring in a huge ass unit of something right behind a ruins.

Really hoping the part about archons on bikes and boards is true!

**Moopy**

Sounds like I've been extremely lucky then.

**Sidstyler**

And of course what better thing to go with all that new customizability than a $30 monopose character with no options, that can only go together in the one, boring, "standing at attention" pose with their legs stupidly close together.

**kb_lock**

Would one of you good folks be so kind as to help me avoid reading 43 pages and tell me what this will basically mean to some poor fool like me that has 2 old DE battleforces NIB that I haven't got around to painting yet?

Are they completely worthless now or do I just get to avoid these new, dumb looking looking elf faces?

**Cytharai**

TL;DR - Lots of rumors, most of them not looking great. Nothing confirmed yet via pictures of a physical codex. Not quite time to jump ship.

**Breotan**

I won't be jumping ship anyway. I've invested too much money in my DE.

**Mr Morden**

Moopy wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

Power form pain was fine for me
Night shields are not as good now
Wyches are still total drek against other infantry - you know the ones they are supposed to be better against - should have just copied the stats from Dark Elf Witch Elves. I bet they still have WS 4 FFS.

PFP didn't play a huge roll from me. It was a tricky lock/key to get more than two units with descent buffs. Those were almost always Incubi.
Night shields will take some getting used to.

Witches are awesome anti-vehicle because of the Haywire grenades. Amazingly so. Let the long range troops with tons of poison deal with the infantry.

PFP was fine - usually you had a couple of Horm to give it to the units you wanted PFP.

That's my issue - Wyches are rubbish in CC - so opposite of the fluff - awesome.................I don't want them chasing after vehicles, I want them slaughtering people in CCC - forging the narrative!

**extremefreak17**

Red Corsair wrote:
Posted by glnngu at the dark city

I got a chance to flip through the book for about half an hour last saturday. Dun ask me how my friend got his hands on it but he did.

I played a bit of beastpack and that's was the first thing I checked. Beastpack is max 12 model in the unit chosen from any mix of Beastmaster, Khymera, Flock or Fiend. I was mostly focused on Khymeras. It got Daemon and Fleet(?) instead of invul 4+ save. Its also T4 and 10 pts. Overall I think beastpack deathstar is dead Sad although the unit 'could' still be good as MSU.

On initial read, my impression was WTF!!!

On second read, there were some potential upsides - some of which were pointed out earlier. I will list the ones that jumped out at me and correct some of the rumors that did not seem right.

The PfP is pretty much what the rumors says. Turn 1 - nothing. Turn 2 - FnP 6+. Turn 3 - FnP 5+. Turn 4 - FNP (5+) and furious charge. Turn 5 - FNP,Furious Charge and fearless. Turn 6 - all of the prev plus rage.

Archon can take Arcane Gear. In the Arcane Gear section, it listed stuff like bikes, hellion skyboard, beastmaster skyboard and .... and spirit proble and the webway portal. I didn't see a limit on how many you can take so I assume the Archon can take as many as he wants. The key point here is it looks like Archon can be on a bike now/skyboard now and take spirit probe and webway portal. This opens up some new possibilities.

Spirit probe improves FNP by 1 max 4+. Equiping Archon with this will net us FnP 4+ potentially on turn 2. I saw a couple of entries where a character improves the bonus you get from the turn by 1. I think it was Urien and / or Haemy. So in Turn 1 we could get FnP 6+ and turn 2 we get FnP 5+ and improve by 1 from Spirit probe.

Next up was the webway portal. If my memory serves me right, it allows deep strike with unit/and vehicle with no scatter. I would imagine Archon is turning into the Deep Stike for loan much like the Space Wolves Drop Pods. Question would be who will the Archon bring?

One candidate is the Archon Court. It works much like beastpack. Max is 12. Can take any combos of Sslyth, Merdusaes etc. Merdusaes has template for the eye blast. Think it was S4 AP3? If you bring 12 of them.. well... now ... you could template a lot of infantry. Another candidate is 12 Sslyth WS4, S5, T5, 2W and 3 attacks. If they get 4+ FnP... could be quite good.

On webway portal, I don't remember if it is limited to DE only. I think it is not. So this opens up even more possibilities with Eldar.

Deepstriking Archon + Seer Council?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + Sslyth? Masssive melee?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + Sslyth + medusae? Masssive melee + a few flamers?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + 10 Groteques?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + 10 Groteques + second archon tanking Shadow field with all of them at 4+ FnP (except Baharroth)?

I think the key here is you do not need a vehicle. So you could potentially bring in a huge ass unit of something right behind a ruins.

Really hoping the part about archons on bikes and boards is true!

OH MY! The Bike thing would just make my day!!

**lambsandlions**

Medusa's eyeshot at s4 ap3 seems too good to be true. Put an Archon on a bike and wwp and take 6 medusa and 6 sslyth. You suddenly have a t5 fnp 4+ unit that is deepstriking with no scatter and laying down 6 s4 ap3 templates. You can assume that a template will hit a minimum of 3 models (but in reality 5 plus would be common) Anything without sv2 will be vaporized. Then you can just go on a warpath. Nothing can really charge the 6 templates and t5 fnp 4+ multiwounds is a hard nut to crack from range. Just be sure to let the medusa die first so you don't drop down to t3.

Really the wwp just sounds busted as no scatter deepstriking is so strong. The medusa sound fun but think about wraithgaurd with d-scyths, deepstriking down onto a unit, just vaporizing everything. Just watch out for early warning override from tau.

**Mr Morden**

Nothing can really charge the 6 templates

if its only S4 - quite a few things can

**Bonesnapper**

Jayden63 wrote:

And yet Devistators come with one of each type of heavy weapon. Where do you think all those other weapons come from? I've never seen anyone ever field devistators with just the box contents.

Don't you get two of every weapon, except the MM, in the Devastators kit?

Anywho, I'm really excited if the Archon is allowed to ride a hoverboard or jetbike. I don't expect DE to be a top tier army but they will sure look good on any tier, and a converted archon is sure to be the centerpiece.

The cronos/talos in units thing is kinda cool but I'm not super happy about this game turning into Monstrous Creature-hammer 40K (MC Hammer 40K

).

**SarisKhan**

Really excited about the Skyboard/Jetbike for the Archon rumour! Can't wait to swoop in across the board with T4 and Shadowfield to ruin someone's day in CC before they can even retaliate... if that will be true.

**angelofvengeance**

If Skyboard's an option I'm sensing a really really sweet idea..

**lambsandlions**

Is there a reason to take a skyboard over a jetbike? The farseer and autarch can take jetbikes for 15pts so I doubt the DE jetbike will be more. The jetbike does all the same things as the skyboard and more. Even in a unit of hellions I would rather have a jetbike archon for those last minute get aways.

T4 will be amazing on the Archon, bumping instant death up from a 6 to a 8 really will make a difference with all the s7 running around. Unless my archon is in a vehicle he is always going to be on a bike, no reason not to put him on one.

Also with the Archon on a jetbike I am not upset that the Baron is gone. Sure he has some nifty tricks but an archon will just do his job better.

**Colpicklejar**

lambsandlions wrote:
Medusa's eyeshot at s4 ap3 seems too good to be true. Put an Archon on a bike and wwp and take 6 medusa and 6 sslyth. You suddenly have a t5 fnp 4+ unit that is deepstriking with no scatter and laying down 6 s4 ap3 templates. You can assume that a template will hit a minimum of 3 models (but in reality 5 plus would be common) Anything without sv2 will be vaporized. Then you can just go on a warpath. Nothing can really charge the 6 templates and t5 fnp 4+ multiwounds is a hard nut to crack from range. Just be sure to let the medusa die first so you don't drop down to t3.

Really the wwp just sounds busted as no scatter deepstriking is so strong. The medusa sound fun but think about wraithgaurd with d-scyths, deepstriking down onto a unit, just vaporizing everything. Just watch out for early warning override from tau.

That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm currently building a dark eldar/eldar corsairs force and I have 10 wraithguard just because I like the look of them so much. I was originally drawn to the corsairs because of the Prince's "let anything deepstrike" ability, but the webway portal is just ABSURDLY better if it's true. Might have to rework it to be just plain ole dark eldar/eldar.

Do Sslyth GET power from pain, though? I mean technically they're not dark eldar, I wonder if they're going to get the rule or not.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah nevermind. Sslyth seem to just have straight up feel no pain. Yea...that'd be quite nasty.

**Anglacon**

Ginngu at the Dark City recanted on skyboards/jetbikes for arcons, or ANY De HQ for that matter.

No bikes... that would almost be... good! Can't have that now can we?

**wuestenfux**

Well, a deep striking Archon with a Seer Council looks tempting.
They can be protected quite well by psychic powers when they arrive.

**vipoid**

Auswin wrote:

Another change that could be interesting.

Urien Rakarth: "he carries a variety of strange weapons to war including a blade that can kill with the slightest scratch."

He didn't have a special blade in the old dex, just a flesh gauntlet.

He had that same fluff in the old book though.

Apparently he just didn't think a 'blade that could kill with the slightest scratch' was worth using on the battlefield. Well, that or the designers couldn't be bothered adding rules for it; for fear that doing so might make him reasonable priced.

**Shingen**

Colpicklejar wrote:
lambsandlions wrote:
Medusa's eyeshot at s4 ap3 seems too good to be true. Put an Archon on a bike and wwp and take 6 medusa and 6 sslyth. You suddenly have a t5 fnp 4+ unit that is deepstriking with no scatter and laying down 6 s4 ap3 templates. You can assume that a template will hit a minimum of 3 models (but in reality 5 plus would be common) Anything without sv2 will be vaporized. Then you can just go on a warpath. Nothing can really charge the 6 templates and t5 fnp 4+ multiwounds is a hard nut to crack from range. Just be sure to let the medusa die first so you don't drop down to t3.

Really the wwp just sounds busted as no scatter deepstriking is so strong. The medusa sound fun but think about wraithgaurd with d-scyths, deepstriking down onto a unit, just vaporizing everything. Just watch out for early warning override from tau.

That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm currently building a dark eldar/eldar corsairs force and I have 10 wraithguard just because I like the look of them so much. I was originally drawn to the corsairs because of the Prince's "let anything deepstrike" ability, but the webway portal is just ABSURDLY better if it's true. Might have to rework it to be just plain ole dark eldar/eldar.

Do Sslyth GET power from pain, though? I mean technically they're not dark eldar, I wonder if they're going to get the rule or not.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah nevermind. Sslyth seem to just have straight up feel no pain. Yea...that'd be quite nasty.

Same here Void Dragons and Kabal of the Broken Sigil.

Also doing an Iyanden army but painted as ulthwe.

**jcress410**

TL; DR.

Has anyone with the book confirmed the Baron is gone?

I assume he is. I'll miss him.

**Exergy**

Kirasu wrote:
You think stealth is better than reduced range and flickerfield? That was a great combo before.. now raiders just get +1 to cover saves? Totally inferior to what was possible before, especially considering 7ths change to jink.

Nightshields were great at -6" range. +1 cover save is kind of a joke. So much ignores cover out there, vehicles with flickerfields already have a save(and you can only make 1 save), and jinking is not good for ravagers or flyers

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wilson wrote:
What are the good changes?

edit: I'm not familiar with DE but I'm interested!

Multiple Talos/Chronos per choice means you might actually see more of them.

Webwayportal to scatter free deep strike for user+unit invalidates a popular build for DE but make for tasty tasty CWE allies.

Otherwise these rumors are seeming like a lot of nerf

**blaktoof**

many of the sources of these rumors have been grossly wrong in the past on other codexes with around 1 out of 10 of the things they said being accurate.

as the last rumors posted here included "archons can take bikes, skyboards" and someone already claimed those are wrong, it does not bode well that any of these rumors are true.

I think the saddest part of this ordeal is this will be the first 7th codex to not include a LoW option, which ultimately makes the codex feel incomplete already to me.

That many people are posting combos of "you can do this and this if you take this dark eldar guy with this eldar guy" is highly reminiscent of the last codex wherein most dark eldar players just became eldar players taking certain dark eldar units to unlock some powerful combo for the eldar and the dark eldar remained a little played mid to low tier army. Which would be highly unfortunate if the update to the dark eldar codex left them literally the same as before in playability but just a shift in which units where taken to unlock powerful combos with eldar.

**mercury14**

So Venoms can jink at a 3+, or 2+ when night fighting. Not bad, not bad at all. Yes there are counters (as there should be). And Venoms can be so numerous that even if a couple go down, you're still going to be able to carry out your attack plan.

Turn one, Venom/Raiders rush forward. You're going flat out with most of them except the blasterborn ones, so who cares if you jink?

Turn two, disembark and assault, venoms fade back to safer positions (or take Maelstrom objectives) and provide ~70 poison attacks as cover fire. Your webway portal units arrive in cover and attack. Stuff that can shoot Venoms is tied up in CC.

Turn three, you've probably won a lot of assaults, have some units consolidated into cover, and are high army-wide 5+ FNP. Whatever ghastly unit you pulled out of the WWP is now assaulting too and has FNP.

Turn four, if you were fairly successful in the previous two turns you're probably mopping up survivors at this point.

**Accolade**

blaktoof wrote:
That many people are posting combos of "you can do this and this if you take this dark eldar guy with this eldar guy" is highly reminiscent of the last codex wherein most dark eldar players just became eldar players taking certain dark eldar units to unlock some powerful combo for the eldar and the dark eldar remained a little played mid to low tier army. Which would be highly unfortunate if the update to the dark eldar codex left them literally the same as before in playability but just a shift in which units where taken to unlock powerful combos with eldar.

Nothing better that using a couple of units with the added benefit of an additional $50 codex! Your army isn't proper if you're not spending upwards of $120 (gotta get those dataslates in) on army books!

And GW says they're a model company...

**Anglacon**

mercury14 wrote:
So Venoms can jink at a 3+, or 2+ when night fighting. Not bad, not bad at all. Yes there are counters (as there should be). And Venoms can be so numerous that even if a couple go down, you're still going to be able to carry out your attack plan.
Turn one,
Turn two,
Turn three,
Turn four, if you were fairly successful in the previous two turns you're probably mopping up survivors at this point.

OR...

Turn 1: 4 waveserpents shoot 4 of your raiders from the sky, with no cover-save shots. Your go, you boost up 3 venoms and hope for the best.
Turn 2: You are assaulted by a wraithknight, which blows up a venom and the serpents take out your other two venoms. Many die in explosions. Your turn: you roll for your reserve unit of grots and arcon.. they do not arrive.
Turn 3: You are tabled but for a unit of 4 fleeing warriors. It looks grim! Your go: Your unit still does not arrive.
Turn 4: You throw in the towel, and curse GW for boning your once favorite codex.

**mercury14**

Anglacon wrote:
mercury14 wrote:
So Venoms can jink at a 3+, or 2+ when night fighting. Not bad, not bad at all. Yes there are counters (as there should be). And Venoms can be so numerous that even if a couple go down, you're still going to be able to carry out your attack plan.
Turn one,
Turn two,
Turn three,
Turn four, if you were fairly successful in the previous two turns you're probably mopping up survivors at this point.

OR...

Turn 1: 4 waveserpents shoot 4 of your raiders from the sky, with no cover-save shots. Your go, you boost up 3 venoms and hope for the best.
Turn 2: You are assaulted by a wraithknight, which blows up a venom and the serpents take out your other two venoms. Many die in explosions. Your turn: you roll for your reserve unit of grots and arcon.. they do not arrive.
Turn 3: You are tabled but for a unit of 4 fleeing warriors. It looks grim! Your go: Your unit still does not arrive.
Turn 4: You throw in the towel, and curse GW for boning your once favorite codex.

So the measuring stick is now whether or not a list can beat lists Wave Serpent lists? Wave Serpents are overpowered, nobody is suggesting otherwise. The problem there is Wave Serpents having unbalanced rules, not other codexes.

Besides, Venoms died to wave serpents before pretty much the same in the old dex. 5++ never saved you when a Serpent put four pens in your lap