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True, but we had tools that could deal with waveserpents in the old codex.
Wyches with haywire, Beastpacks that could catch, surround and destroy the serpent and kill everything inside it in one go.
Eldar players had to be very careful with placement, distance to our units and target priority.

Now what do they have to worry about? A Ravager dropping in behind them, where they will happily "jink" away at a 3+?
Wyches? Wych, please! The only thing scary about wyches this dex is the thought of them charging a freaking rhino with one haywire grenade, or a marine unit that they will bounce off of!

Believe it or not, i am not all Doom and Gloom. i am hopeful that when i get my hands on and look through the dex, that My fear of facing 3 knights in a lance formation at a tournament is not an auto loss, but the rumors are pointing that way.
I am not saying we need to be crying in our soup here, but I think it is just as bad to yell "Everything will come up roses!" as it is to yell "Cheap DE army for sale!"

The more I read news and rumors posts, the more I think that my area of the world is the only one where not everyone runs an uber hard wave serpent list.

In fact, no one here runs a wave serpent list. Haven't seen one. Maybe they do what they're supposed and only break out the competitive lists for competitive games.

Edit: that wasn't aimed specifically at you Anglacon. The recurring theme I'm seeing in pretty much all N&R threads is comparing new books to Eldar serpent spam, which pretty much all new books will loose. Just like talking religion and politics at Thanksgiving, you're just asking for people to be upset!

Im pretty excited about the DE update. So far I'm hearing some pretty nice things that can be done with them. I'm looking forward to getting the army up and running. LOTS of venoms, raiders, ravagers and Reavers! Huzzah! I will disclaimer this by saying that I've got no DE experience to go off of. I'm coming in brand new, so if this book sucks I won't be able to recall the good ol days when it didn't.

 Anglacon wrote:

Believe it or not, i am not all Doom and Gloom.

I should hope not.

That's my job.

Eldar have always been a poor matchup for Dark Eldar, even in 5th edition. High-volume S6 is the bane of DE even without any Wave Serpents on the table.

I play Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Corsairs and I've never lost a match to Dark Eldar. I'm probably like 12-0 against them with more than half my matches being massacres... And many of those matches were with the old Eldar codex...

When I play Dark Eldar I generally lose to Eldar unless the player is new or is using certain lists such as Wraithguard/knights/lords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ADDENDUM: Are we thinking the codex is being released Friday or next friday?

My local meta is mostly Chaos Daemons, CSM and all kinds of SM. Orks, Necrons and Tyranids show up as well. In short, I'm not really bothered by the "Oh noes, Wave Serpents are gonna destroy my army!" predicament.

Regardless, we should be getting new WD info pretty soon, right?

Serpent spam is a hard counter to Dark Eldar, just as Dark Eldar are a hard counter to Tyranid Godzilla lists.

I understand why everyone want to pair codexes against Eldar since they're the big dogs, but the rumored changes (even if underwhelming) balance Dark Eldar out and make them competitive again.

And no, when I say "competitive" that doesn't mean "vying for top table at GTs," it just means "They'll hold their own."

 Auswin wrote:
Serpent spam is a hard counter to Dark Eldar, just as Dark Eldar are a hard counter to Tyranid Godzilla lists.

I understand why everyone want to pair codexes against Eldar since they're the big dogs, but the rumored changes (even if underwhelming) balance Dark Eldar out and make them competitive again.

And no, when I say "competitive" that doesn't mean "vying for top table at GTs," it just means "They'll hold their own."

FWIW I took 6th out of 44 armies with Dark Eldar at a regional tournament in Ohio this year, going 3W, 0L, 2D. I tabled my opponent in all three of my wins (Flying Tzeench Demons, Orks, Tau), and tied GK (should have won), and Eldar with a Knight.

So it can be done.

From Grot Orderly:

Welcome!

Little bird has passed the following info.
There will be no pics, even though I received some, since GW does not want me to their stuff, before the release date... oh well.

Eldar Archon model
£14, €18, USD23, AU25 // 70zł

Eldar Succubus model
£14, €18, USD23, AU25 // 70zł

Haemonculus Covens - Codex Supplement
£30, €39, USD50, AU60 // 150zł

Epic Atmageddon on Steam!

I'm sorry, what was that last bit about steam?

 pretre wrote:

Epic Atmageddon on Steam!

Huh...so, anyone up for New Final Liberation

Is it wrong that I'm concerned by the price for the Archon model? $3 cheaper than the Haemy for a supposed multi-part kit?

That can't be right. Don't get me wrong, the new Haemy is beautiful, but it's not a $26 model.

Fiddy dollah supplement again. Here's to hoping for at least four pages of rules.

mercury14 wrote:
Fiddy dollah supplement again. Here's to hoping for at least four pages of rules.

Don't be silly...it will be 200 pages. 2 of which will be rules, the rest pretty pictures of studio painted models.
All in garish and stark contrasting colors, naturally.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I'm sorry, what was that last bit about steam?

 pretre wrote:

Epic Atmageddon on Steam!

Huh...so, anyone up for New Final Liberation

I loved that game.

I tried to play it, but my computer was too modern.
It refused to play the videos and the music, which was too much of a pity.

Do we know for sure that wyches lost haywire? I haven't seen that anywhere...

Well, I just pre-ordered the codex from Frontline Gaming. I've got a huge army and DE have always kinda been a favorite so I'm actually going to buy a codex this time around

 Anglacon wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
So Venoms can jink at a 3+, or 2+ when night fighting. Not bad, not bad at all. Yes there are counters (as there should be). And Venoms can be so numerous that even if a couple go down, you're still going to be able to carry out your attack plan.
Turn one,
Turn two,
Turn three,
Turn four, if you were fairly successful in the previous two turns you're probably mopping up survivors at this point.

OR...

Turn 1: 4 waveserpents shoot 4 of your raiders from the sky, with no cover-save shots. Your go, you boost up 3 venoms and hope for the best.
Turn 2: You are assaulted by a wraithknight, which blows up a venom and the serpents take out your other two venoms. Many die in explosions. Your turn: you roll for your reserve unit of grots and arcon.. they do not arrive.
Turn 3: You are tabled but for a unit of 4 fleeing warriors. It looks grim! Your go: Your unit still does not arrive.
Turn 4: You throw in the towel, and curse GW for boning your once favorite codex.

This may happen.
However I gonna play Eldar with DE allies. This should work quite well.

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Do we know for sure that wyches lost haywire? I haven't seen that anywhere...

We know very little for sure, but there are rumors that only the Hekatrix can get haywire grenades.

Personally I'm okay with that because from a fluff perspective Wyches shouldn't be average in CC but just about the best units in 40k at killing vehicles. But wyches should gain something then, either improved CC ability, something to help them survive, a point reduction, etc.

It appears that wyches will probably get a little bit better in CC for their points due to not having to buy 2-pt grenades for every model, Power From Pain being more useful and maybe combat drugs getting a slight buff. If upgrading to a Hekatrix becomes a wise choice then they'll be running around with a character to soak challenges, getting an extra attack, etc. And the cost of the hekatrix w/haywire should be roughly canceled out by the savings from not buying all the haywire...

100 points should get you 5x Wyches in a Venom or Raider, two objective secured units. That's not bad.

 Moopy wrote:
I don't remember ever being dealt grievous wounds from a round of overwatch. Maybe 1-2 models tops, and that's hardly worth worrying about.

it isnt the 1-2 models. It's the 1-2 models that die and prevent you from completing your charge


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mercury14 wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Do we know for sure that wyches lost haywire? I haven't seen that anywhere...

Personally I'm okay with that because from a fluff perspective Wyches shouldn't be average in CC but just about the best units in 40k at killing vehicles. But wyches should gain something then, either improved CC ability, something to help them survive, a point reduction, etc.

It appears that wyches will probably get a little bit better in CC for their points due to not having to buy 2-pt grenades for every model, Power From Pain being more useful and maybe combat drugs getting a slight buff. If upgrading to a Hekatrix becomes a wise choice then they'll be running around with a character to soak challenges, getting an extra attack, etc. And the cost of the hekatrix w/haywire should be roughly canceled out by the savings from not buying all the haywire...

100 points should get you 5x Wyches in a Venom or Raider, two objective secured units. That's not bad.

100 points for 5x Wyches in a venom is somewhat bad if the Wyches cannot take on vehicles or infantry and die like nothing else now with the rules for explosions and templates.

Improved combat ability might be one thing, but who knows how they would do that.

Serpent spam is a hard counter to Dark Eldar, just as Dark Eldar are a hard counter to Tyranid Godzilla lists.

Nope Serpent Spam is the hard counter to fun.

Wyches shouldn't be WS4 and pathetic in CC and Hekatrixes were just embaressing :( Happy to loose Haywire if they got Poisoned attacks or something.

I'll likely just buy the sexy bomber and pass on the rest of the crap

 pretre wrote:
Precision deep strike for any unit is kind if a big deal.

Huge, Im already thinking of how to convert up some DEldary Wraithgaurd with Dsythes

Spikey bits!

 Exergy wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Precision deep strike for any unit is kind if a big deal.

Huge, Im already thinking of how to convert up some DEldary Wraithgaurd with Dsythes

Do none of you play against Tau at all? Weird.

 agnosto wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Precision deep strike for any unit is kind if a big deal.

Huge, Im already thinking of how to convert up some DEldary Wraithgaurd with Dsythes

Do none of you play against Tau at all? Weird.

Tau have fallen out of favor in my local meta big time. In yesterday's tournament there was only one Tau guy and he got smacked around.

We play maelstrom so Tau have to run all around the map if they want to score points, so they're much more challenging to use than before.

mercury14 wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Precision deep strike for any unit is kind if a big deal.

Huge, Im already thinking of how to convert up some DEldary Wraithgaurd with Dsythes

Do none of you play against Tau at all? Weird.

Tau have fallen out of favor in my local meta big time. In yesterday's tournament there was only one Tau guy and he got smacked around.

I'm just saying that if you think deep striking raiders is a good thing, you haven't landed in front of a unit of Broadsides with EWO and hi yield missile systems... It's not fun.

If you're facing that kind of list don't deep strike stuff.

mercury14 wrote:
If you're facing that kind of list don't deep strike stuff.

Which is my point. It doesn't do to get excited about one facet of the new *rumored* rules when it's so easy to invalidate them. Hopefully we'll have some leaks from the codex soon.

The new power from pain rules do make it much easier for wyches to tarpit regular shooting and low level CC infantry. A 6 or 5+ FNP and a 4++ will give them quite a lot of protection from injury against the enemy (including marines - anyone who thinks wyches can't tie down marines isn't running the math or has never had it happen on the table).

For me, putting Dark Eldar units in reserve has always been a questionable choice. As a DE player, you need to be killing stuff turn 1-2 and not fuddering around off the map. That doesn't keep your army safe - that's just an illusion. And DE don't get reserve modifiers without allies. That's why their scourges and flyers are very average IMO.

The much better option is to line up 7-10 transports and rush your opponent, backed up by lance fire against vehicles. Your opponent is going to shoot something but since all your transports and their riders are rather low-cost it's not a huge deal. Our defense is a lack of high-cost units to kill and saturating opponents with jinking targets.

The new WWP looks like it has potential though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
The new power from pain rules do make it much easier for wyches to tarpit regular shooting and low level CC infantry. A 6 or 5+ FNP and a 4++ will give them quite a lot of protection from injury against the enemy (including marines - anyone who thinks wyches can't tie down marines isn't running the math or has never had it happen on the table).

Exactly. And if it becomes standard to run a Hekatrix with like a power sword that helps too.

I'll often disembark a squad of Wyches in front of SM units, even assault marines. And then on the shooting phase whittle away their numbers with a Venom to stack the odds in my favor.

 agnosto wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Precision deep strike for any unit is kind if a big deal.

Huge, Im already thinking of how to convert up some DEldary Wraithgaurd with Dsythes

Do none of you play against Tau at all? Weird.

I play them often enough that if I had such a unit I would make sure i deep struck out of LOS from anything with interceptor or if the table didnt allow for lots of LOS blocking terrain or if I thought that they had too much interceptor I would deploy differently and perhaps choose not to DS, or DS with something else.