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 SarisKhan wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Do we figure Lelith will loose her Ignore Armour as well

I think I read she kept that ability.

Straken lost it and gained Smash and Monster Hunter?

 angelofvengeance wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
So far I'm hearing some pros and cons, but as with other recent codexes it seems it will be underwhelming. What irks me most is that I don't think we will have a single *good* HQ choice. I'll wait until I've read it but my next purchase might be a Wave Serpent instead.

1-3 Talos is ok, but for them to be good we need to be able to two weapons on each. Three TL Haywire Blasters is not bang for your buck. Compare to Carnifexes for example, take three with two TL Devourers w/ Brainleach Worms each and that's 36 S6 TL shots (more expensive but you get the idea).

You can get 2 weapons on already can't you? TL Liquefier and a tail weapon?

You can, but I don't think that's a good option. Talos aren't fast enough to be an up-close assault unit and don't have the shooting output or range to be a threat. Paying a 100+ points for a 24" anti tank gun (of which you need four or five of to have a good chance of taking out a vehicle in a turn) and a mediocre template (which you are unlikely to get in range for and doesn't fit the role of the unit) just isn't good. I'd happily pay c. 130-140 points if it meant two *good* guns. Alternatively make them jetpack/jump MCs.

ryuken87 wrote:
So far I'm hearing some pros and cons, but as with other recent codexes it seems it will be underwhelming. What irks me most is that I don't think we will have a single *good* HQ choice.

I've always thought Succubi are good for their points and they should be a bit better now that they get FNP for just playing 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incubi are 20 pts now. Isn't that -2 pts per model? And turn 2-3 when they assault they'll all have some sort of FNP? Buff.

If Lelith is -25 pts, +1 attack, rampage, and gets better PfP, she's substantially buffed.

Reaver rending HoW is S4, not the S3 of their unit? I really have no idea why people are complaining about these guys. They seem like an exceptional unit for just 16 points. I think a lot of folks are thinking about units in isolation again which is exactly the reason people were complaining about the Eldar code being bad right before its release. :(

mercury14 wrote:
Reaver rending HoW is S4, not the S3 of their unit? I really have no idea why people are complaining about these guys. They seem like an exceptional unit for just 16 points. I think a lot of folks are thinking about units in isolation again which is exactly the reason people were complaining about the Eldar code being bad right before its release. :(

Par the course. Whenever you discuss a unit that has received some unfavourable change you aren't allowed to look for the bright side. Remember, every opponent you play has 10 Wave Serpents and so many Markerlights they can flood the table with them. Both at the same time, mind you.

 SarisKhan wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Reaver rending HoW is S4, not the S3 of their unit? I really have no idea why people are complaining about these guys. They seem like an exceptional unit for just 16 points. I think a lot of folks are thinking about units in isolation again which is exactly the reason people were complaining about the Eldar code being bad right before its release. :(

Par the course. Whenever you discuss a unit that has received some unfavourable change you aren't allowed to look for the bright side. Remember, every opponent you play has 10 Wave Serpents and so many Markerlights they can flood the table with them. Both at the same time, mind you.

Truth.

Reavers can kill Wave Serpents now. Roll a 6 on Hammer and it's a pen. If you rolled the +S drug...

"But Wave Serpents will always kill the Reavers first!"

Fine, they killed some 16 point guys (who get 5+ armor saves against the shield and maybe FNP so some still lived). Now my vehicles and the rest of my army gets to do what it pleases without being serpent shield'ed.

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Would be nice if these rumours had pics to back them up.

Indeed, it's getting crazy that the week is nearly over and all we've seen are two pics taken of the backpage Reference that seem to have taken with a potato.

Heh. Consider this exalted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ryuken87 wrote:
You can, but I don't think that's a good option. Talos aren't fast enough to be an up-close assault unit and don't have the shooting output or range to be a threat. Paying a 100+ points for a 24" anti tank gun (of which you need four or five of to have a good chance of taking out a vehicle in a turn) and a mediocre template (which you are unlikely to get in range for and doesn't fit the role of the unit) just isn't good. I'd happily pay c. 130-140 points if it meant two *good* guns. Alternatively make them jetpack/jump MCs.

Who knows, GW might have changed their unit type? I doubt it though.

 SarisKhan wrote:
Remember, every opponent you play has 10 Wave Serpents and so many Markerlights they can flood the table with them. Both at the same time, mind you.

I play tournaments, so yes... yes they do. Thanks for understanding the problem!

That's always been the problem with Talos, getting them where they need to be and having them be a working part of an otherwise very fast list. Highly doubt they'll be jump MCs for their points though.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Absolutely yes. Want me to link you the thread?

Sure. I'm not reading 60 pages though, so hopefully you can provide more than just a handful of anecdotes. Every release has at the least a vocal minority of unhappy people- that doesn't mean that every release has an equal amount of unhappy people... or that their complaints aren't valid.

I can almost guaruentee there are some other changes in store for Wyches yet that have not come to light.

Do you have a single reason to believe that beyond blind optimism?

mercury14 wrote:
Reaver rending HoW is S4, not the S3 of their unit?

Where'd you hear they had rending? Str6 rending would be nice- though still inferior to what they had before.

mercury14 wrote:
That's always been the problem with Talos, getting them where they need to be and having them be a working part of an otherwise very fast list. Highly doubt they'll be jump MCs for their points though.

If only we could Join IC with them... if only...

Oh man... the people moaning about Guardians, how bad Wraithknights were, Warlocks are useless, Wave Serpents got nerfed (yes people said that!).

Yeah, I even remember people whining about Howling Banshees and Pyrovores.

What a bunch of fools they turned out to be, eh?

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I always saw the bomber as an Alpha Strike vehicle anyway. Now that you can swap out its weapons to make it more Infantry focused or Vehicle focused I think it has been improved in this role.

but even when focusesed, it still isnt very good at either. Considering it's durability, it should have a much more massive damage output. So far it looks like slightly better than before in anti infantry mode, which is not that impressive. AV10 is pretty weak.


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mercury14 wrote:
That's always been the problem with Talos, getting them where they need to be and having them be a working part of an otherwise very fast list. Highly doubt they'll be jump MCs for their points though.

They did get more expensive and on average lose attacks?

perhaps GW is just nerfing them because they have heard a lot of MCs are OP comments.

really hope they get something to increase their movement, but as you say it is unlikely.

Like in all things, the end result falls somewhere in the middle. There are some units that have obviously taken a big hit, while some got substantially better.

Right now I'm being a little more glass half full and feeling like (if nothing else) I'll have more diversity in list building. Too much of the 2010 dex was auto-avoid. Units that couldn't be justified under most circumstances... now there is a little more creativity to be had on the back end.

One thing I will say is that overall the last round of codexes have played far better than they've looked on paper. Orks, Wolves, Grey Knights -- the reaction to the release was all the same, now I'm seeing anecdotally that players of the armies are happier with them than they were during the leaks. All saying they were "better than they thought" after playing them.

This is probably all dumb luck, but a small part of me hopes that by writing these books so quickly and having them waiting in the wings that perhaps there's some playtesting going on.

Bold wishes, I know.

mercury14 wrote:
Oh man... the people moaning about Guardians, how bad Wraithknights were, Warlocks are useless, Wave Serpents got nerfed (yes people said that!).

Thing is I had hoped (foolishly) that we would not get total rubbish units (banshees) and totally broken units (Serpents) ......

Its also just sad hwo they are now squeezing more units out to put in supplements - or just delete................

I guess eventually it will just go to each indivudal unit has a pay for dataslate............

Equally sadly many of the positive posts are how a few choice DE units will make their Eldar force even better........as GW can't be bothered to fix earlier codex before bringing new ones out.

 Anglacon wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
Remember, every opponent you play has 10 Wave Serpents and so many Markerlights they can flood the table with them. Both at the same time, mind you.

I play tournaments, so yes... yes they do. Thanks for understanding the problem!

Sorry that I'm the insensitive evil incarnate!

With Harlies out of the dex, my dreams of a harlequin counts as army are dashed. So that's a shame.

I'm certainly seeing this as being a friendly game type army. More so than any of the other 7th edition books. But I imagine it will still be fun to play. Now I just have to decide if I want to start them.

mercury14 wrote:


Truth.

Reavers can kill Wave Serpents now. Roll a 6 on Hammer and it's a pen. If you rolled the +S drug...

HoW is resolved against the facing that you charge, not the rear armour.

So whilst it is still possible to generate a penetrating hit in this fashion it is exceptionally unlikely.

Also these hits are not AP2 so you can't destroy the tank without chipping away all the targets hull points.

Of course they also don't get hit and run -- assuming they even have that rule -- versus non walkers either so will be left all neatly lined up for execution having performed this attack.

Fine, they killed some 16 point guys (who get 5+ armor saves against the shield and maybe FNP so some still lived). Now my vehicles and the rest of my army gets to do what it pleases without being serpent shield'ed.

Uh huh.

Course that assumes that you have any vehicles left from your opponents opening round or two of fire .

Or have even taken any vehicles anyway -- if the reports of Ravagers losing their ariel assault rule are true then people are really going to almost forced into running units of the MCs, which will at least take a turn or two to die.

 Auswin wrote:
One thing I will say is that overall the last round of codexes have played far better than they've looked on paper. Orks, Wolves, Grey Knights -- the reaction to the release was all the same, now I'm seeing anecdotally that players of the armies are happier with them than they were during the leaks. All saying they were "better than they thought" after playing them.

I would say that the reason for that is because they all balance against each other very well, imo. And I also think think that Tyranids and IG, being the last two 6th edition codices, were also designed with that power-level in mind.

If you throw Space Wolves, Tyranids, Orks, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights in a room together, each codex more or less has an equal chance of beating one another, assuming the players behind them are all of equal skill. All of those codices on the other hand are at a power disadvantage compared to the top-tier armies like Eldar to even the generic-tier armies like Space Marines (but ass-tier armies like CSM and Dark Angels match up well, unintentionally).

The stabilizing of power-level is commendable, and I'm not worried about 7th edition Dark Eldar's level of competitiveness against those other 7th edition codices (well, Tyranids will probably run a train on them, but eh).

What I am worried about, and what all the rumors are pointing toward happening, is that GW is going to annihilate most of the flavor the codex had by way of removing swathes of special characters and quirky special abilities- and that they're going to make units that were already not that great even worse (points increases for venoms and ravagers? removal of EMP grenades and denial of assault grenades for wyches? why?) while substituting actual, simple fixes for bad units with lazy ppm points drops.

Which... is what looks to be the case for most of the units in the codex.

If scourges are cheaper and can take 4 weapons I'd be tempted to take 3/4 squads of them with blasters or haywire blasters to replace my haywire wych vehicle hunters.

Could it even be worth putting them in a raider (if raiders become fast attack choice) so it can jink and protect them further? Is that legal? Sound weird but it could work.

 BlaxicanX wrote:


What I am worried about, and what all the rumors are pointing toward happening, is that GW is going to annihilate most of the flavor the codex had by way of removing swathes of special characters and quirky special abilities- and that they're going to make units that were already not that great even worse (points increases for venoms and ravagers? removal of EMP grenades and denial of assault grenades for wyches? why?) while substituting actual, simple fixes for bad units with lazy ppm points drops.

Which... is what looks to be the case for most of the units in the codex.

I couldn't agree more with this. Honestly, it's one of the drawbacks of playing a Xenos army. More often than not you'll be an afterthought when it comes to the simple stuff. Heck, I could probably write 1,000 words on how the proliferation of thunder hammers and storm shields have messed with the meta. They used to be rare things, and on an HQ even rarer. Now it seems every create-your-own chapter master can have one, and if you're playing Iron Hands it's worse with TH biker, gorgon chain-wielding madness.

The lack of flavor is a huge turnoff for 40k right now. So many things have been normalized to the point of being bland. It's why I keep finding myself wanting to play WFB more often these days. The games are simply more fun on the table, even if the core rules aren't as tight as 40ks.

I stopped playing marines and dove wholly into Xenos armies for the weird, quirky special rules and those are going in favor of largely plan USRs. It's a problem and I don't think it's going to get better for a while considering Vetock and Kelly have turned their attention to fantasy and are no longer working on 40k. They wrote flawed dexs to be sure, but both loved flavor -- whether it be weird D6 tables, special rules or unique characters. All that is gone for the near future.

 turgon868 wrote:
If scourges are cheaper and can take 4 weapons I'd be tempted to take 3/4 squads of them with blasters or haywire blasters to replace my haywire wych vehicle hunters.

Could it even be worth putting them in a raider (if raiders become fast attack choice) so it can jink and protect them further? Is that legal? Sound weird but it could work.

Ditto, will even drop trueborn in favour of that. Haywire blasters have better range.

Reavers are worse in combat than Wyches. Sure, the HoW with rending and such is nice, but it's hardly anything awesome. The flyby gave them great utility and a flavorful interesting rule. Still, a badly executed flyby and you ended up being assaulted and wiped out by a 5-man tac squad.

Now they're just slightly faster wyches. They still have lesser survivability in combat than tactical marines, even with FNP. In ranged they will be forced to constantly jink or die to a sneeze. And don't argue their guns - with constant jinking they will be pretty much useless.

Dark Eldar nerfed? Challenge Accepted.

Fine, they killed some 16 point guys (who get 5+ armor saves against the shield and maybe FNP so some still lived). Now my vehicles and the rest of my army gets to do what it pleases without being serpent shield'ed.

Honestly, I wonder if wyches suck because the kit sells so well. It would be so GW to not see that the Wych box is an excellent seller because Dark Elf players are buying it and converting them to square bases to be Wych Elves at at 50% discount.

It wouldn't shock me in the least.

 Exergy wrote:

They did get more expensive and on average lose attacks?

perhaps GW is just nerfing them because they have heard a lot of MCs are OP comments.

really hope they get something to increase their movement, but as you say it is unlikely.

They got a bit more expensive, lost half an attack on average, and gained 5+ FNP from the start, possibly getting 4+ FNP if near a Chronos. Later in the game they also get fearless and furious charge.

mercury14 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

They did get more expensive and on average lose attacks?

perhaps GW is just nerfing them because they have heard a lot of MCs are OP comments.

really hope they get something to increase their movement, but as you say it is unlikely.

They got a bit more expensive, lost half an attack on average, and gained 5+ FNP from the start, possibly getting 4+ FNP if near a Chronos. Later in the game they also get fearless and furious charge.

they already had fearless, and rumors said they don't have PfP actually.

mercury14 wrote:
Oh man... the people moaning about Guardians, how bad Wraithknights were, Warlocks are useless, Wave Serpents got nerfed (yes people said that!).

I remember that thread. I still get a chuckle out of the C: Eldar doomsaying.

 pretre wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Oh man... the people moaning about Guardians, how bad Wraithknights were, Warlocks are useless, Wave Serpents got nerfed (yes people said that!).

I remember that thread. I still get a chuckle out of the C: Eldar doomsaying.

*All* Eldar troops suck!

Wave Serpents are nerfed! I want my energy fields back!

War Walkers getting 5++ and battle focus means they suck!

Battle focus - who cares?

Windriders can't kill anything!

Farseers suck because they have to roll for Fortune!

Eldar are a bad army and now they're worse!