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I'm still wondering about the Deep Stirking raiders and venoms whether that's been confirmed or not.

Sorry to jump back 3 pages - but I really like the new Archon model!

The crossed arms looks dumb - like hes being laid to rest by the Tomb Kings - but some of the images in the "What's New Today" show the model with his arms done differently and he just looks so damn arrogant! It's perfect All straight and proper like "You better be pleased that someone like me is going to end the life of someone like you"

Personally, I think it works - although the more dynamic posses in the Haem and Succubus looks great too

I'm itching for more details. A lot of what I'm seeing here is stuff I like. Units of Talos/Cronos. Fast Attack Fighters, Detachment with increased Fast Attack, Beast Packs composed of just the big scaries, Deep Striking Transports, Webway Portals being non-scatter deepstrike. Overall I'm liking the sound of this. It'll play different than my other factions. Just need details!!!!!!

its not amazing that reavers are 16 pts.

orks get stormboyz for 9 pts and do pretty much everything a reaver does except probably get into assault faster.

of course that's a different codex...regardless

Reavers were taken solely for bladevaning before, they didn't gain HoW, they already had HoW so the only difference is their HoW now has rending set str 4, or hits d6 times at set strength 6 with rending if they have caltrops.

Talos and Chronos both went up in cost 20 pts each, thats a 25% increase for a chronos, and 20% points increased for a talos. hope whatever they got was worth it, chances are it is FnP, which they had access to after getting a pain token before anyways...

Incubi dropped in cost, but they are now less worth taking as there is no way to give this assault unit any type of assault grenades with the reported changes to PGL, so they might as well have halved their cost because it doesn't matter. T3 models striking last is not good.

Wyches remained unchanged in cost, wych weapons have reportedly been made worse, not that anyone took them before. Haywire gone. Will be interesting to see if they gained -any- special rules to make them worth taking now, like dodge works versus overwatch or something.

Hellions dropped in cost by 3 and lost access to grenades due to PGL change, great more T3 models in assault striking last but with worse armor than incubi, they should be equally amazing.

Kabalites dropped by 1 point, this is good.

mandrakes dropped by 3 points and gained a fair amount of buffs it seems, mainly baleblast at start which is what would make them fieldable. Still not great, but they are viable now.

voidraven- the new kit! Rumor has it now costs +15 pts more than the old kit and lost AV 11 on front and sides to now AV10. NICE! If they are viable will be based on if they still have to pay for missiles ontop of everything, and if they gained any special rules they didn't already have, chances are no.

Scourge seem to have made out, looks like rules are the same, can now take 4/5 weapons instead of 2/5 and dropped in cost from 22 to 16.

At first glance it seems like Dark Eldar armies will be mostly Kabalite warriors in raiders with splinter racks with lots of scourges now, will probably still see ravagers as the goto heavy support slot.

I think the only possible saving grace for many units will be if they have some kind of unit special rule, or there are some squad leader wargear options we have not been privy to as of yet that make them viable still, otherwise it seems like most things became worse in quality for points than before, especially for any assault elements.

Now almost all DE units get FNP just for not dying turn one. How is nobody factoring this in? Wyches that assault turn 2-3 are harder to kill and don't get killed in vehicle explosions as much.

A Wych with a 4++ in CC followed up with FNP is formidable, especially when drugs so something like give them T4 for their FNP, or hit on 3+.

Now against shooting Wyches can get (hopefully a 5+ cover save) and FNP. A Wych or a Kabalite in ruins who GTG get a 3+ then FNP. That's a huge buff. Huge. And Kabalites are cheaper for it too.

Any news on what's in the supplement? I assume if it's anything like the other supplements it's an entirely new set of warlord traits and artifacts?

mercury14 wrote:
Now almost all DE units get FNP just for not dying turn one. How is nobody factoring this in? Wyches that assault turn 2-3 are harder to kill and don't get killed in vehicle explosions as much.

A Wych with a 4++ in CC followed up with FNP is formidable, especially when drugs so something like give them T4 for their FNP, or hit on 3+.

Now against shooting Wyches can get (hopefully a 5+ cover save) and FNP. A Wych or a Kabalite in ruins who GTG get a 3+ then FNP. That's a huge buff. Huge. And Kabalites are cheaper for it too.

but it is 6+ on turn 2 and 5+ on turn 3 and later

when the 5th codex hit, it was 4+

The FnP is good, but not huge. It now gives protection from turn 2 on for your whole army versus small arms fire, and specials/heavy weapons that are not str6 plus. So pretty much just flamers as most heavy/specials people take are str6+.

It will slightly mitigate the damage from open topped vehicles being hit by flamers, as in 1/3rd of the models that died before will live on average.

The issue is the new PFP is also a big nerf.

Before we could stick a Haem with a unit to give it FnP turn 1 to protect it somewhat from fire/exploding vehicles, from the current rumors it appears we can no longer do this and will expect firing on our units first turn to net more casualties in competitive play at least where we will see lots of shooting armies having access to ignores cover.

Expecting some rules for reserve shenanigans.

So just to confirm what I seem to be reading, but...

A reaver with caltrops will inflict D6 S6 rending HoW attacks, correct? So that means that a squad of 9 Reavers can inflict 9D6 S6 rending attacks, right?

Anyone Want to run the math on that against a Tac squad or terminator squad?

Hollismason wrote:
Expecting some rules for reserve shenanigans.

Yeah, I'm wondering about a 'hide for 3 or 4 turns and then show up and wreck face' tactic.

 Exergy wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Now almost all DE units get FNP just for not dying turn one. How is nobody factoring this in? Wyches that assault turn 2-3 are harder to kill and don't get killed in vehicle explosions as much.

A Wych with a 4++ in CC followed up with FNP is formidable, especially when drugs so something like give them T4 for their FNP, or hit on 3+.

Now against shooting Wyches can get (hopefully a 5+ cover save) and FNP. A Wych or a Kabalite in ruins who GTG get a 3+ then FNP. That's a huge buff. Huge. And Kabalites are cheaper for it too.

but it is 6+ on turn 2 and 5+ on turn 3 and later

when the 5th codex hit, it was 4+

In the last codex Wyches rarely got any FNP. Now they get it for just surviving a turn.

Now Wyches get a change to not die when taking wounds from assaulting into flamers.

Buff.

 pretre wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Expecting some rules for reserve shenanigans.

Yeah, I'm wondering about a 'hide for 3 or 4 turns and then show up and wreck face' tactic.

Not quite "surprise attack" that the DE are known for.

 godswildcard wrote:
So just to confirm what I seem to be reading, but...

A reaver with caltrops will inflict D6 S6 rending HoW attacks, correct? So that means that a squad of 9 Reavers can inflict 9D6 S6 rending attacks, right?

Anyone Want to run the math on that against a Tac squad or terminator squad?

Remember all 9 Reavers would have to make B2B contact with the squad to generate all those HOW hits, so depending on how the opposing squad is positioned and what you roll for assault you might not get the full 9D6.

Although into a green tide squad...

So yeah, ideal scenario of spread out 30 man Ork squad versus spread out 9 man Reaver Squad with Caltrops.

Reavers get the charge, we'll ignore Overwatch. (Really shouldn't but I just want to do the basic math)

*WARNING bad math follows*
Out of 9D6 we'll say roughly 30 hits.
S6 so wounds on a 2.
6 fail to wound,
6 rend.
24 wounds in total.
3 out of the 18 AP- wounds are saved.
21 dead Orks

It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.

- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending

- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi


Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.

 godswildcard wrote:
So just to confirm what I seem to be reading, but...

A reaver with caltrops will inflict D6 S6 rending HoW attacks, correct? So that means that a squad of 9 Reavers can inflict 9D6 S6 rending attacks, right?

Anyone Want to run the math on that against a Tac squad or terminator squad?

It would annihilate them most of the time.

Can EACH reaver take caltrops, though? And if so, what would that unit cost?

It's probably purchased as the squad , so just a straight up D6 Caltrop attack when charging if the squad has them.

Not per model, that would be insane.

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 godswildcard wrote:
So just to confirm what I seem to be reading, but...

A reaver with caltrops will inflict D6 S6 rending HoW attacks, correct? So that means that a squad of 9 Reavers can inflict 9D6 S6 rending attacks, right?

Anyone Want to run the math on that against a Tac squad or terminator squad?

Remember all 9 Reavers would have to make B2B contact with the squad to generate all those HOW hits, so depending on how the opposing squad is positioned and what you roll for assault you might not get the full 9D6.

Although into a green tide squad...

My pitiful attempt at math: assuming all 9 in b2b, an average of 31.5 hits, 26.46 wounds, 5.04 of which are rending wounds. That seems pretty good.

Edit: I just got ninja'd into oblivion. It would be super crazy if you could purchase caltrops for everyone. Where is the S6 thing coming from then?

mercury14 wrote:
It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.

- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending

- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi


Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.

I don't think they have grenades.

Hollismason wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.

- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending

- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi


Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.

I don't think they have grenades.

Isn't Hammer of Wrath always resolved at I10? So while the Reavers would attack at I1 their HOW would still trigger before the Marines.

Ah it makes much more sense that Caltrops would be per 3 models. Either that or hilariously expensive.

Reavers can also be used as heat lance carriers.

I hope that Wyches have gotten some additional special rules that will help them.

 Accolade wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Expecting some rules for reserve shenanigans.

Yeah, I'm wondering about a 'hide for 3 or 4 turns and then show up and wreck face' tactic.

Not quite "surprise attack" that the DE are known for.

More of a terror attack.

Hey, something's out there. Let's go check it out... Oh dead Emperor, my face!

It's probably 1 per 3 models as it is now.

Hollismason wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.

- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending

- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi


Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.

I don't think they have grenades.

It doesn't matter really. Five (minus however many got killed on I10) Tac marines won't kill many Reavers at all. Probably none, especially with FNP factoring in.

Nine (or let's say eight b/c or overwatch or a lucky Tac marine punch) Reavers who are NOT using combat drugs for a boost to WS, S, or +1A, are three attacks each. So 24 attacks, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 1-2 more Tac marines dead. If there's an Arena champion with like a power sword or agonizer or combat drugs are factoring in, it's a massacre even if the Reavers go on initiative 1.

I think that's decent for 16 points.

mercury14 wrote:
It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.

- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending

- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi


Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.

Now calculate the cost of these Reavers vs. a tac squad

 Haljin wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.

- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending

- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi


Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.

Now calculate the cost of these Reavers vs. a tac squad

Well we don't know the cost of Caltrops but if they stay 20pts, it'd be something like 220pts for a 10 man squad (maximum size in last codex) with 3 Caltrops

220 pts for 10 reavers with 3 caltrops if caltrops stay at 20pts(chances are they will), no squad leader upgrade.

they will probably also get shot at 1-2 turns before making assault in addition to overwatch shooting...

assume 10 man tac squad with flamer/ heavy bolter on planet bowling ball versus reavers with scenario benefiting reavers mostly.

reavers move up, tac marines decide not to move back and shoot but move up a6nd shoot, flamer out of range. 6/4 of squad is in rapid fire range, so total of 14 bolter shots, 3 snap shotting heavy bolter shots. average hits is 9 bolter hits, at toughness 4 we will round down and say 4 wounds, reavers save half and lose 2 models.

Reavers charge, overwatch does d3 flamers hits(we will say 2) 1 heavy bolter hit, 2 normal bolter hits. average wounds = 3 wounds, 1 model dies, so reavers now down to 6 models, we will say they still have 3 caltrops. cause 10 str 6 hits on HoW and 3 str 4 hits, 2 str 4 hits wound, 8 str 6 hits wound, 1 of these ignores armor. so 1 tac marine dies, 7 more have to make saves, killing 2 more.

now we have a protacted assault phase where 7 tac marines are facing off against 6 reavers, for the cost chances are tac marines have vet sgt upgrade with power fist.

not going to bother to post math, but if tac marines aren't in cover remaining reavers strike first in assault doing on average .6 wounds, and tac marines strike back (sgt most likely has psword or pfist upgrade) causing 2.2 casualties.

reavers can attempt to Hit and Run but will have 3-4 models left which will be gunned down next turn.

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 Haljin wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.

- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending

- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi


Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.

Now calculate the cost of these Reavers vs. a tac squad

Well we don't know the cost of Caltrops but if they stay 20pts, it'd be something like 220pts for a 10 man squad (maximum size in last codex) with 3 Caltrops

Maximum size was nine, so 60+(16x9)= 204.

 Haljin wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.

- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending

- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi


Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.

Now calculate the cost of these Reavers vs. a tac squad

They're about the same given upgrades.

But it also doesn't matter because 9 reavers with caltrops will still beat 9 Tac Marines.

 pretre wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Expecting some rules for reserve shenanigans.

Yeah, I'm wondering about a 'hide for 3 or 4 turns and then show up and wreck face' tactic.

Not quite "surprise attack" that the DE are known for.

More of a terror attack.

Hey, something's out there. Let's go check it out... Oh dead Emperor, my face!

Ha! The DE are the boogeymen of 40k, always lurking just in the shadows, ready to getcha!