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 Haljin wrote:
In 3rd Wyches were a completely different unit. Wyches were never popular in 5th, at least not in a competetive setting.

Really? Dash's list was one of the most competitive lists around, and he always had a Raider full of them.


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Well alright then. I'll give it to you that Wyches are now better in the role that they're still terrible at.

Oh brother. Your hyperbole is ridiculous. I suppose we are talking about CC here. Please explain to me how they are "terrible" at it.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Haljin wrote:
In 3rd Wyches were a completely different unit. Wyches were never popular in 5th, at least not in a competetive setting.

The parking Lot edition? I guess my meta was different, b.c It was common to have 2-3 5man units in venoms with Haywire Grenades.

But Razorwings were skimmers and had 2-3 of those starting on table too... I remeber the 1st time I faced against the New DE book. 3 Razorwings, 2-3 Raiders 2-3 venoms loads of bikes, it was so beautiful

But the small haywire-units were not CC units, but tank hunters. And in that role it is now simply impossible to use Wyches in, since they lost haywires. I actually used 10-man units for CC in 5th, but they never really did much.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Haljin wrote:
In 3rd Wyches were a completely different unit. Wyches were never popular in 5th, at least not in a competetive setting.

Really? Dash's list was one of the most competitive lists around, and he always had a Raider full of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Well alright then. I'll give it to you that Wyches are now better in the role that they're still terrible at.

Oh brother. Your hyperbole is ridiculous. I suppose we are talking about CC here. Please explain to me how they are "terrible" at it.

I have no idea who Dash is, but the lists I've routinely seen had a lot of venoms and just poisoned everything to death. With a bunch of blasterborn and blaster warriors to pop transports.

And I believe it was already explained several times, why wyches are terrible at doing anything significant, considering their points cost.

I have no idea who Dash is, but the lists I've routinely seen had a lot of venoms and just poisoned everything to death.

Then you have limited exposure to the competitive lists at the time which substantially calls in to question the general statements you were making about said competitive lists. Many competitive lists had Wyches in 5th, your experience not with-standing.

And I believe it was already explained several times, why wyches are terrible at doing anything significant, considering their points cost.

Riveting. They are perfectly functional for their point cost once they are in CC. Their limitations have always been getting there, particularly with the aforementioned overwatch and explosion changes.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Oh brother. Your hyperbole is ridiculous. I suppose we are talking about CC here. Please explain to me how they are "terrible" at it.

They're terrible at it because they're too fragile to realistically make it into combat without losing a few models first and once in assault they're AP- and wounding on 4's, 5's and 6's against most things in the game.

If you don't consider them to be terrible in melee, I'm curious to know what dedicated assault unit you would consider terrible.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I have no idea who Dash is, but the lists I've routinely seen had a lot of venoms and just poisoned everything to death.

Then you have limited exposure to the competitive lists at the time which substantially calls in to question the general statements you were making about said competitive lists. Many competitive lists had Wyches in 5th, your experience not with-standing.

Don't let the flag next to my profile fool you, that's just company's proxy. I am not American, I do not follow American competitive scene. Just because I do not know some local celebrity doesn't mean I haven't been in and seen competitive environments.

That's really irrelevant though. Wyches got a major nerf (haywire) and a buff (points and easier access to fnp). They haven't been used for CC in the current edition and they won't be. They're not utterly worthless, but there will be other things you can buy for the same points cost, that will simply perform much better.

They're terrible at it because they're too fragile to realistically make it into combat without losing a few models first and once in assault they're AP- and wounding on 4's, 5's and 6's against most things in the game.

Right, but they also strike before just about any other dedicated assault unit, have 4++ invulnerables, have combat drugs that almost always makes them better in assault, and are generally lead by a sergeant character they substantially ups their damage potential. They are nominally more of a tarpit then a hammer, but they excel as tarpits. They also have the speed and accessibility to clean up on units that want nothing to do with CC.

If you don't consider them to be terrible in melee, I'm curious to know what dedicated assault unit you would consider terrible.

Although I'm sure I could find some exceptions, I don't readily consider any dedicated assault units terrible at melee. Tau Warriors are terrible at melee. Putting any dedicated assault unit in the same category as Tau Warriors is completely asinine, and renders the word meaningless, in my opinion anyway.


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Don't let the flag next to my profile fool you, that's just company's proxy. I am not American, I do not follow American competitive scene. Just because I do not know some local celebrity doesn't mean I haven't been in and seen competitive environments.

I'm sure you have experience with competitive play. I'm merely pointing out that your experience is limited if you never saw Wyches used competitively in 5th. It happened. It was a thing.

They haven't been used for CC in the current edition and they won't be. They're not utterly worthless, but there will be other things you can buy for the same points cost, that will simply perform much better.

Cool. Seems like you have it all figured out.

I disagree. Or, rather, I see enough changes that they really needed (primarily the FNP bit) to give it a go. Like I said, they weren't that far off. They needed a little more resilience, and that's exactly what they got.

Yeah, having +1 Ld or iniative seven makes them always better at close combat

It's fun that I own almost all units in the range, except coven stuff, the bomber and the mandrakes. It's not hard to guess which units are the only ones to get better in the "update". From the units I have (all the rest), only scourges, warriors and incubi can be said to be better in the new book, and two of them are the same as before, just a bit cheaper...

Power level wise, the book is probably better than before, because the main "thing" i.e. venom spam doesn't change too much and some of the new stuff seems to be good. It doesn't confort much though as half of my models are next to worthless (i.e. Baron with 15 hellions, 9 reavers, 20 wyches)... Needless to say I won't be buying the new book.

 jamopower wrote:
Yeah, having +1 Ld or iniative seven makes them always better at close combat

Actually, higher Ld means they are less likely to fail the inevitable Morale checks. This means they benefit significantly from the magic, I mean combat drugs 5/6 times.

 jamopower wrote:
Yeah, having +1 Ld or iniative seven makes them always better at close combat

It's fun that I own almost all units in the range, except coven stuff, the bomber and the mandrakes. It's not hard to guess which units are the only ones to get better in the "update". From the units I have (all the rest), only scourges, warriors and incubi can be said to be better in the new book, and two of them are the same as before, just a bit cheaper...

Power level wise, the book is probably better than before, because the main "thing" i.e. venom spam doesn't change too much and some of the new stuff seems to be good. It doesn't confort much though as half of my models are next to worthless (i.e. Baron with 15 hellions, 9 reavers, 20 wyches)... Needless to say I won't be buying the new book.

You could still field a massive Fast Attack and Troops slot with those lol. Would clog an opponent's advance quite substantially IMO.

ShadarLogoth wrote:


Cool. Seems like you have it all figured out.

I disagree. Or, rather, I see enough changes that they really needed (primarily the FNP bit) to give it a go. Like I said, they weren't that far off. They needed a little more resilience, and that's exactly what they got.

That's fine, I probably will try them a couple time, especially since I usually do not play in a competitive environment. We don't hate the wyches - I'd love to use mine more. I think we're all just hoping they would've gotten a bit more than they did. As it is now, the kabalites are not much worse in CC, but much more useful outside of it and cheaper to boot.

REAPER! is it the new ravager? If your talking about Vehicle killing

Let look at them Side by Side 1st

Ravager x3 DL = 125pts AV 11/11/10 Heavy Support S8 ap2
Reaper = 135pts AV 11/11/10 Heavy Support S7 ap3

Now lets look at a 3 Turn bases vs AV12 (I pick 12 b.c Eldar/Tau/IG)

Ravager (move 6" or less): 9 shots, at 67% chance. You get 6 hits, need 4's to glance and 5-6 to pen. Average you will take off 3 HP's
Reaper: 3 Shots, 2 hits, do to D3 it turns into 4 hits, need 2+'s to take off a HP. 3.87 Hp's removed (Did i do my math right there? I think I might be off a little bit)

If looking at a HP PoV, the Reaper for 10pts more is better at stripping them.

If your in a Heavy vehicle/Knight environment, you might wana think about the Reaper.

That's fine, I probably will try them a couple time, especially since I usually do not play in a competitive environment. We don't hate the wyches - I'd love to use mine more. I think we're all just hoping they would've gotten a bit more than they did. As it is now, the kabalites are not much worse in CC, but much more useful outside of it and cheaper to boot.

That's fair, although I really don't think Kabalites are anywhere close. Half the attacks, less initiative, no 4++, no combat drugs. Role 10 Kabs versus 8 Wyches against each other 10 times, I doubt the Kabs when once.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
Yeah, having +1 Ld or iniative seven makes them always better at close combat

Actually, higher Ld means they are less likely to fail the inevitable Morale checks. This means they benefit significantly from the magic, I mean combat drugs 5/6 times.

It makes them better when they are losing. I fail to see how it improves their CC capabilities

The drugs got worse by losing two best results from the chart. Toughness boost is handy, Leadership is helpful and initiative is about as useful as the running boost with the current book.

The drugs got worse by losing two best results from the chart. Toughness boost is handy, Leadership is helpful and initiative is about as useful as the running boost with the current book.

I tend to disagree there. I think it got better, honestly. I think toughness is superior to the free Paint Token as it stacks with further PfP mechanics. IE, you can now have T4 AND 5+ FNP. That's pretty awesome.

The I boost is pretty situational, although I do think its more useful then the run boost, which was almost worthless as the girls already have fleet.

Re-roll to wounds was better then the LD boost, I'll give you that, but that's not a completely awful trade-off.

The Toughness really does it for me that. It's a pretty helpful change.

The pain token stacked before as well. It helped them get furious charge easier. If you had succubus in a wych unit you gained the furious charge straight away. It also helped with characters (like duke) who had the drugs as it gave their full unit (of for example 20 3+ poisoning warriors) the feel no pain. But yes, the toughness boost is good, but still I always thought the pain token to be the best drug result as it helped my hellions and bikes so much.

Blaxican, Wyches still have plasma grenades (your analysis said they did not). Also factor in that plasma grenades can blow stuff up during shooting, especially if it's not wearing power armor.

People need to factor combat drugs into their analysis of Wyches and Reavers. I know it's a challenge because it's random and you might get hosed with 95% pointless I7 Wyches, but the rest of the buffs are meaningful for them. Even the +1ld one helps them tarpit better. A S4 Wych, WS5 Wych, or ones that throw 4 dice on the charge are worth 10 points IMO. A T4 wych becomes as durable as Wrack after a couple turns. Do I think they should have dropped one or even two ppm? Yeah because they lack their old utility. But 2/3 of the Drugs make them worth 10 points in my opinion.

Also factor in that we were paying 12 ppm before with haywire so they're "cheaper" now in some sense.

The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much

 jamopower wrote:
The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much

I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.

I actually haven't played a single 7th edition game, but I can believe the rules help the dark eldar a bit. I've had games where half of my models die or run away on single turn as a collateral damage of the exploding vehicles...

mercury14 wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much

I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.

Do you have any problems with the "no escape rule" for OT transports?

 Jayden63 wrote:
I'm trying to figure out how the two fliers are going to be worth their points. AV10 and 130 - 160 points is terrible investment. Even at 3 HP, its still not enough survivability, let alone anything that has skyfire/interceptor on it. The standard ADL quad gun will remove two HPs right from the get go.

Add to it without vector dancer they aren't even that good at dog fighting as they can't take advantage of other flyers sometimes weak rear armor. The new SW stormfang/Stormwolf are miles ahead of these things in general utility and the Eldar Crimson Hunter is what these things should have started out with base and moved up from there.

yeah, the new "lance plasma cannon" isnt the greatest. 160 points for a one use bomb(riptide blast) and then 2 plasma cannons for the rest of the game.

or you could take the anti armor version and get 2 lascannons.

I am not seeing value. Even the nerfed vendetta is much better.



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 jamopower wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
Yeah, having +1 Ld or iniative seven makes them always better at close combat

Actually, higher Ld means they are less likely to fail the inevitable Morale checks. This means they benefit significantly from the magic, I mean combat drugs 5/6 times.

It makes them better when they are losing. I fail to see how it improves their CC capabilities

The drugs got worse by losing two best results from the chart. Toughness boost is handy, Leadership is helpful and initiative is about as useful as the running boost with the current book.

yeah, reroll to hit was awesome
pain token provided a lot of survivability

these have been replaced with +1 toughness, a definite nerf


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 Amishprn86 wrote:
REAPER! is it the new ravager? If your talking about Vehicle killing

Let look at them Side by Side 1st

Ravager x3 DL = 125pts AV 11/11/10 Heavy Support S8 ap2
Reaper = 135pts AV 11/11/10 Heavy Support S7 ap3

Now lets look at a 3 Turn bases vs AV12 (I pick 12 b.c Eldar/Tau/IG)

Ravager (move 6" or less): 9 shots, at 67% chance. You get 6 hits, need 4's to glance and 5-6 to pen. Average you will take off 3 HP's
Reaper: 3 Shots, 2 hits, do to D3 it turns into 4 hits, need 2+'s to take off a HP. 3.87 Hp's removed (Did i do my math right there? I think I might be off a little bit)

If looking at a HP PoV, the Reaper for 10pts more is better at stripping them.

If your in a Heavy vehicle/Knight environment, you might wana think about the Reaper.

The str7 can also strip hull points from low armor vehicles, even against AV12, it needs a 5-6

Wych math vs MEQ where wych is charging. Percentages of a marine killed.

Regular Wych: 16.7%
Wych with Hydra Gauntlets: 28.8%
Wych with Razorflail: 25.0%
Wych with SN Impaler: not sure but I suspect >25%

Wych on +1A drugs: 22.2%
Wych on +1A drugs and HG: 37%
Wych on +1A and Razor: 33.3%

Wych on +1S drugs: 25%
Wych on +1S and HG: 37.5%
Wych on +1S and Razor: 37.5%

Wych on +1WS drugs: 22.2%
Wych on +1WS and HG: 37.0%
Wych on +1WS and Razor: 29.6%

Hekatrix on +1A drugs: 27.8%
Hekatrix on +1S drugs: 33.3%
Hekatrix on +1 WS drugs: 29.6%

Hekatrix on +1S and HG: 50%
Hekatrix on +1WS and Raz: 39.5%
Hekatrix +1WS and HG: 49.4%
Hekatrix +1A and HG: 46.3%

Hekatrix +1A, Agonizer: 125%
Hekatrix, +1WS, Agonizer: 133%

mercury14 wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much

I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.

venoms cannot get nightshields anymore, so it's 4+ jink or 5++ stock


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 jamopower wrote:
I actually haven't played a single 7th edition game, but I can believe the rules help the dark eldar a bit. I've had games where half of my models die or run away on single turn as a collateral damage of the exploding vehicles...

and now, if you make it to turn 5 your girls will no longer run!

 Exergy wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much

I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.

venoms cannot get nightshields anymore, so it's 4+ jink or 5++ stock

FLickerfields are still in?

mercury14 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much

I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.

venoms cannot get nightshields anymore, so it's 4+ jink or 5++ stock

FLickerfields are still in?

Apparently only for Venoms - not sure if its still a 5+ invuln or now just a 5+ cover save

 Mr Morden wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much

I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.

venoms cannot get nightshields anymore, so it's 4+ jink or 5++ stock

FLickerfields are still in?

Apparently only for Venoms - not sure if its still a 5+ invuln or now just a 5+ cover save

So only 1 more cover for jinking?

I just realized something funny. Mandrakes where so terrible that they almost always counted "count as". They now switched that role with Wyches, because I don't know what else to use the Wych for, except for Lhammy "count as", which hilariously cost the same points.

 Zewrath wrote:
I just realized something funny. Mandrakes where so terrible that they almost always counted "count as". They now switched that role with Wyches, because I don't know what else to use the Wych for, except for Lhammy "count as", which hilariously cost the same points.

Couldn't you count them as mandrakes? It's not like baleblast is exactly WYSIWYG, I'd say a wych pistol does the job.

 Zewrath wrote:
I just realized something funny. Mandrakes where so terrible that they almost always counted "count as". They now switched that role with Wyches, because I don't know what else to use the Wych for, except for Lhammy "count as", which hilariously cost the same points.

Wyches are nowhere near as bad as last codexes' mandrakes.

Edit: Lelith looks good now

mercury14 wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
I just realized something funny. Mandrakes where so terrible that they almost always counted "count as". They now switched that role with Wyches, because I don't know what else to use the Wych for, except for Lhammy "count as", which hilariously cost the same points.

Wyches are nowhere near as bad as last codexes' mandrakes.

Edit: Lelith looks good now

I'd argue that they are. There isn't any units in the codex that doesn't cover their role better or cheaper. There's literally nothing to justify their choice now, not even as troop tax as warriors covers that rule much, much better.


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 Colpicklejar wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
I just realized something funny. Mandrakes where so terrible that they almost always counted "count as". They now switched that role with Wyches, because I don't know what else to use the Wych for, except for Lhammy "count as", which hilariously cost the same points.

Couldn't you count them as mandrakes? It's not like baleblast is exactly WYSIWYG, I'd say a wych pistol does the job.

Now that would be irony itself.