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How are you catching a Jump MC with Wyches? Raider/Venom is not a viable answer here when a single Wave Serpent has almost a 100% chance of wrecking it on turn 1 (or the turn it comes on the board)

What if the WS is dead by the turn they come in? And, you seem to have missed the point. Someone else said that WK's would be a bad matchup, I was merely correcting that person. Sure, maybe they just keep their WK on their board edge the entire game to keep them from your Wyches? I don't see that plan backfiring at all.


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
Wyches are poor tarpits because they're only leadership 8 stock.

Broadsides, centurions, devistator squads, mortis pattern dreads? Wyches will lose the combat against these units on average, even with the 4++ and FNP, and will fail their morale test on average and fall back- hell, they're going to lose the first round of combat against a naked 10-man tactical squad on average. That is not a good tarpit. In order for a tarpit to be good it needs some brand of fearless- even leadership 10 isn't a safe bet because of the negative modifiers for your morale check, and it only takes a couple of wounds in CC in order for that test to be difficult for them to reliably pass.

So now you're looking at attaching IC's to the unit so that they're either fearless/stubborn or have enough punch to pile on more wounds and win the combat. But... why would you do that? There's an opportunity cost to using one of your two precious HQ slots (barring allies/formations etc shenanigans) to babysit a single 9-man squad of wyches.

This whole post assumes you don't take the rather basic Hekatrix/Agonizer upgrade. There is absolutely now way the Wyches are losing CC to Tacs or broadsides. Give me a break.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Wyches are poor tarpits because they're only leadership 8 stock.

Broadsides, centurions, devistator squads, mortis pattern dreads? Wyches will lose the combat against these units on average, even with the 4++ and FNP, and will fail their morale test on average and fall back- hell, they're going to lose the first round of combat against a naked 10-man tactical squad on average. That is not a good tarpit. In order for a tarpit to be good it needs some brand of fearless- even leadership 10 isn't a safe bet because of the negative modifiers for your morale check, and it only takes a couple of wounds in CC in order for that test to be difficult for them to reliably pass.

So now you're looking at attaching IC's to the unit so that they're either fearless/stubborn or have enough punch to pile on more wounds and win the combat. But... why would you do that? There's an opportunity cost to using one of your two precious HQ slots (barring allies/formations etc shenanigans) to babysit a single 9-man squad of wyches.

This whole post assumes you don't take the rather basic Hekatrix/Agonizer upgrade. There is absolutely now way the Wyches are losing CC to Tacs or broadsides. Give me a break.

Broadisdes have 2+ save. I cvan quite easily see the wyches losing to them. Especially after the supporting fire overwatch.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

There is no need to be rude. If you are feeling insecure about yourself, there are better options.

Yes, I'm quite insecure. I wasn't being rude. I was merely pointing out my observations. It's readily apparent when people struggle with the CC portion of the game.

A full strength unit of Wyches will NEVER reach anything worth tarpitting against a player who know what he is doing.

Interesting caveat. What if the DE player knows what they are doing?

You are failing to see that the Wyches would need to survive 2+ turns of shooting WITHOUT their 4++ or FNP to help them.

Not if they are coming in from reserves...

Warriors are more survivable to that same shooting, and can provide meaningful return fire at range. By the time a unit of Wyches makes it to assault range, the same unit of Warriors will have already done significant damage in prior turns, and because of their better save and ability to keep their distance from return fire, will have more models left alive that can continue to do damage

I think you are somewhat over amplifying a Splinter cannon and some rifles to make your point. It's ait. It's not overwhelmingly awesome sauce. Wyches can more then make up for the damage once they reach CC, particularly as they are also intrinisically in a better position Objective wise when they have done so.

Yes Wyches and Warriors have different roles. The problem is that Warriors are decent at their role, while Wyches are terrible at theirs AND cost more points.

LOL. You keep saying they are terrible at their role without actually demonstrating they are terrible at their role. Wyches are just fine in CC once they get to it, particularly for an OS unit.

This is why your argument falls flat on its face. They are terrible because they have no way of reliably making it into combat. If a full unit of Wyches dies to a stiff breeze on turn 3, they will have acomplished almost nothing. If a full unit of Warriors dies to a slighty stiffer breeze on turn 3, they will have at least gotten to do SOME damage and required a bit more of the enemy's firepower to take out. They also will have cost you less points.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
This whole post assumes you don't take the rather basic Hekatrix/Agonizer upgrade.

Yes, it does. And do you know why? Because if we assume that the unit is taking the hekatrix/agonizer upgrade, than we should also assume that the unit they're assaulting is going to have upgrades as well, and it's only going to take a single flamer/heavy flamer to ruin your wyches day.

I'm not sure what point you think you're making by assuming optimal conditions for the Wyches (decked out with all the gear/IC's/vehicle needed to reach their target in one piece) while assuming that these are naked, bare squads just sitting around waiting to be assaulted.

And why do 2+sv Broadsides care about agonizers? A man who likes to make personal attacks about other people's knowledge of the game should probably make sure he actually knows what he's talking about.

This is why your argument falls flat on its face. They are terrible because they have no way of reliably making it into combat. If a full unit of Wyches dies to a stiff breeze on turn 3, they will have acomplished almost nothing. If a full unit of Warriors dies to a slighty stiffer breeze on turn 3, they will have at least gotten to do SOME damage and required a bit more of the enemy's firepower to take out. They also will have cost you less points.

You've honestly never seen Wyches get into CC? Honestly? Is that honestly what you are saying here?

Yes, it does. And do you know why? Because if we assume that the unit is taking the hekatrix/agonizer upgrade, than we should also assume that the unit they're assaulting is going to have upgrades as well, and it's only going to take a single flamer/heavy flamer to ruin your wyches day.

It's a reasonable assumption to make. 10 Tacs cost about as much as 10 Wychers with an upgraded Hekatrix. A single Flamer isn't going to do much. You are making some wildly incorrect assumptions here.

I'm not sure what point you think you're making by assuming optimal conditions for the Wyches (decked out with all the gear/IC's/vehicle needed to reach their target in one piece) while assuming that these are naked, bare squads just sitting around waiting to be assaulted.

I didn't assume a single thing. In normal operating circumstances, Wyches can take Tacs and everything else you mentioned. I don't need to assume anything to make that true,

And why do 2+sv Broadsides care about agonizers?

They don't. Wyches also don't need them to take them out. Wyches can take out equally costed TH/SS terms. You really think they are going to struggle with Side? Give me a break.

A man who likes to make personal attacks about other people's knowledge of the game should probably make sure he actually knows what he's talking about.

That's incredibly rich and satisfying to read. Thank you for this moment.

Wyches are comparably a lot better against the thunder hammer terminators, as they pay a lot of points for their thunderhammers and shields which are of no use against wyches, where the broadsides get to the same end result (ok tehy don't ignore the fnp) by their fists alone and use the points on the weapons that they can use for overwatch (and to blast the wyches from the table starting from a distance of 30").

Edit: You actually need 28,7 wych attacks to make a single wound to a 2+ save t4 ws3 model. When the same model with strenght 5 (wounding on 2+ and leaving fnp) needs 7,3 attacks.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
This whole post assumes you don't take the rather basic Hekatrix/Agonizer upgrade.

Yes, it does. And do you know why? Because if we assume that the unit is taking the hekatrix/agonizer upgrade, than we should also assume that the unit they're assaulting is going to have upgrades as well, and it's only going to take a single flamer/heavy flamer to ruin your wyches day.

I'm not sure what point you think you're making by assuming optimal conditions for the Wyches (decked out with all the gear/IC's/vehicle needed to reach their target in one piece) while assuming that these are naked, bare squads just sitting around waiting to be assaulted.

And why do 2+sv Broadsides care about agonizers? A man who likes to make personal attacks about other people's knowledge of the game should probably make sure he actually knows what he's talking about.

Why do you bother? Let them field those wyches, have them die horribly, achieving little. Together with those Reavers, that are so amazing that they kill tactical marines half their cost. Because we all know, tactical marines are what DE really struggle with, since they lack any kind of firepower that could take them out.

Why do you bother? Let them field those wyches, have them die horribly, achieving little. Together with those Reavers, that are so amazing that they kill tactical marines half their cost. Because we all know, tactical marines are what DE really struggle with, since they lack any kind of firepower that could take them out.

I don't know why you are getting so upset about this. The tactical marines in the example I gave for the Reavers would cost about the same amount of points. Maybe slightly less, but certainly not half.

I really don't understand why people get so irrationally pot comitted to their notion that unit X is bad. If people like a unit, and having success with that unit, who are you to try to invalidate their very real success on the internet? It's such a strange and alien notion to me.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Why do you bother? Let them field those wyches, have them die horribly, achieving little. Together with those Reavers, that are so amazing that they kill tactical marines half their cost. Because we all know, tactical marines are what DE really struggle with, since they lack any kind of firepower that could take them out.

I don't know why you are getting so upset about this. The tactical marines in the example I gave for the Reavers would cost about the same amount of points. Maybe slightly less, but certainly not half.

I really don't understand why people get so irrationally pot comitted to their notion that unit X is bad. If people like a unit, and having success with that unit, who are you to try to invalidate their very real success on the internet? It's such a strange and alien notion to me.

The example also assumed that you were charging a tactical marine unit out of the open so that you get every model of the unit to the base contact, no one dies on everwatch and you get to strike first because no one had to go through cover. Certainly plausible, but quite amazing feat to accomplish on the battlefield.

There is also a factor that the rending is quite unreliable. You could end up rolling a little less (or little more) sixes and end up tied to those tactical marines, slowly losing your squad (or quickly by failing the morale check after bad round of combat).

All the comparisons and Mathhammer regarding Wyches here is rather amusing. You don't need to do any new analysis on Wyches because they haven't gained anything so the comparisons (both theoretical and from actual in game use for several years across 2 editions) have already been done and their usefulness is already clearly established. Wyches were only used as Haywire delivery systems in the old codex so I would like to know what people are smoking to to make them think that they are suddenly going to become a viable unit when the only thing that has happened is that they have lost options (no Haywire, no Nightshields, no Duke to get a decent Drug result etc).

Wyches are comparably a lot better against the thunder hammer terminators, as they pay a lot of points for their thunderhammers and shields which are of no use against wyches, where the broadsides get to the same end result (ok tehy don't ignore the fnp) by their fists alone and use the points on the weapons that they can use for overwatch (and to blast the wyches from the table starting from a distance of 30").

Edit: You actually need 28,7 wych attacks to make a single wound to a 2+ save t4 ws3 model. When the same model with strenght 5 (wounding on 2+ and leaving fnp) needs 7,3 attacks.

The distance would be covered pretty quickly in a Raider. All things being equal, the sides would kill the Raider, get assaulted by ~8 Wyches after Overwatch, and the girls would win CC after about 4 or 5 rounds.


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The example also assumed that you were charging a tactical marine unit out of the open so that you get every model of the unit to the base contact, no one dies on everwatch and you get to strike first because no one had to go through cover. Certainly plausible, but quite amazing feat to accomplish on the battlefield.

Fair point. It was simply a though experiment on the damage potential.


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Powerguy :: They have gained something. The new PfP mechanic is clearly better for how Wyches operate. Not have to pay 3 points/model to get them FNP is a significant change. Also, they actually have a chance to get T4, allowing the FNP to help against 6/7 range weapons. Their weapons are also more cost effective now. Is it enough? I don't know, but it's factually incorrect to say nothing has changed when it clearly has.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Wyches are comparably a lot better against the thunder hammer terminators, as they pay a lot of points for their thunderhammers and shields which are of no use against wyches, where the broadsides get to the same end result (ok tehy don't ignore the fnp) by their fists alone and use the points on the weapons that they can use for overwatch (and to blast the wyches from the table starting from a distance of 30").

Edit: You actually need 28,7 wych attacks to make a single wound to a 2+ save t4 ws3 model. When the same model with strenght 5 (wounding on 2+ and leaving fnp) needs 7,3 attacks.

The distance would be covered pretty quickly in a Raider. All things being equal, the sides would kill the Raider, get assaulted by ~8 Wyches after Overwatch, and the girls would win CC after about 4 or 5 rounds.

Except three broadsides with high iyeld missile pods and smart missiles kill on average bit over five wyches in overwatch and with a single markerlight hit from a quite possible marker drones it goes up to 9,3. i.e. the whole squad

no Nightshields

They do have Nighshields. In fact, 3+ Jinking Raiders is a pretty big difference as well.


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Except three broadsides with high iyeld missile pods and smart missiles kill on average bit over five wyches in overwatch and with a single markerlight hit from a quite possible marker drones it goes up to 9,3. i.e. the whole squad

I was thinking 2 Sides, not three. The unit you are describing would be significantly more expensive then a unit of Girls and a Raider.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

no Nightshields

They do have Nighshields. In fact, 3+ Jinking Raiders is a pretty big difference as well.


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Except three broadsides with high iyeld missile pods and smart missiles kill on average bit over five wyches in overwatch and with a single markerlight hit from a quite possible marker drones it goes up to 9,3. i.e. the whole squad

I was thinking 2 Sides, not three. The unit you are describing would be significantly more expensive then a unit of Girls and a Raider.

Isn't the whole idea here tarpitting the unit? If the prices are equal there is no tarpitting happening as both forces have equal share of their force tied up. Although I must say that in the reality the broadside unit is way undercosted and the wyches overcosted, so in that way it makes sense

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I wasn't being rude.

Yes you were/are being.

Stop it now.

Thank you.

Isn't the whole idea here tarpitting the unit? If the prices are equal there is no tarpitting happening as both forces have equal share of their force tied up. Although I must say that in the reality the broadside unit is way undercosted and the wyches overcosted, so in that way it makes sense

Not necessarily from a strategic standpoint. Lets say the Sides were on an objective or something.

But, you are correct in your estimation the Misslesides would be pretty tough to assault due to Overwatch. You would probably have to mitigate that one way or another.

Anyways the whole problem behind this is that the nature of the game is so unbalanced with the armies being so diverse, that it would need a miracle of somesort to get most of the stuff "playable". Hence the game is much better when you just don't care about it and hope that your opponent thinks the same. I have been playing with warp talons, thousand sons, hellions, incubi, 5th ed. aspect warriors, stealth suits, etc. a lot and while they suck big time, they look cool and if somehow they get something done, it's as big of a joy than winning the game.

That said, even my humour isn't enough to update to the new book and invalidate all of the stuff why I play with my dark eldar army in the first place (i.e. the cool and unique options of the wwp, characterful special characters to base the army, etc.)

ShadarLogoth wrote:
It's a reasonable assumption to make. 10 Tacs cost about as much as 10 Wychers with an upgraded Hekatrix. A single Flamer isn't going to do much. You are making some wildly incorrect assumptions here.

Let's break it down then:

Wyches assault. 10 marines, one with a flamer, is putting an average of three wounds on Wyches in overwatch. 7 Wyches make it into assault. The 6 wyches are putting out 18 attacks, which will hit on 4+'s, killing 1 marine on average. The Hekatrix is putting out 4 AP3 attacks that hit on 4's and wound on 4's, which nets an average of one dead marine. The remaining eight marines return fire with 9 attacks, strength 4 and hitting on 4's, which will kill on average 2 wyches. End of round one and you have an average of 5 dead wyches and 2 dead marines. Second round, the four wyches will kill zero marines on average, while the Hekatrix will kill 1- the Marines will kill 1 and you stay tied in that slap fight for a few more turns, until all the wyches are dead near the end of the game. So congrats, by spending 190 points you've managed to successfully tarpit and ultimately lose your entire squad to.... a 150 point, 10-man tactical marine squad armed with just a flamer. Tactical acuity at its finest.

And then there's Space Wolves, who'll just outright whoop Wyches because of counter-attack. 3 dead wyches from overwatch + 3 dead wyches in assault from 17 strength 4 melee attacks = lost combat. And that's assuming they have only one flamer- they can purchase a second one.

I didn't assume a single thing. In normal operating circumstances, Wyches can take Tacs and everything else you mentioned. I don't need to assume anything to make that true,

Yeah, because of course difficult terrain does not exist, or at the least no one playing against your list will ever think "hmmm, none of his assault units have grenades, maybe I should put the units that I don't want potentially getting tarpitted into difficult terrain so that his Wyches strike last and improve my chances of winning the combat." No one ever plays Space Wolves or Iron Hands or any army where their units are simply mathematically superior in assault to your wyches. No one ever puts upgrades on their units or takes more than one special weapon if they do, no one ever bubble-wraps or supports units that they don't want getting tar-pitted by your wyches who lack EMP grenades and so only exist to try to get into CC with something.

Nope, no assumptions at all. It's a fact that everyone who plays against Dark Eldar is an idiot who doesn't know how to list build or set up his units on the table to minimize the possibility of your T3 6+/6++ units riding around in paper-mache' vehicles getting into CC with his most vital units unscathed.

They don't. Wyches also don't need them to take them out.

No, but they need to do put out at least one wound to avoid losing combat, which they won't on average. It's not a very good tarpit if it fails morale and runs away, is it?

Wyches can take out equally costed TH/SS terms.

In what situation are 10 Wyches going to be equally costed to terminators, who clock in at a minimum of 200 points?

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I was thinking 2 Sides, not three. The unit you are describing would be significantly more expensive then a unit of Girls and a Raider.

How is this an argument? Wyches are 10ppm, most things you would want to try to tarpit are going to be significantly more expensive than them.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Why do you bother? Let them field those wyches, have them die horribly, achieving little. Together with those Reavers, that are so amazing that they kill tactical marines half their cost. Because we all know, tactical marines are what DE really struggle with, since they lack any kind of firepower that could take them out.

I don't know why you are getting so upset about this. The tactical marines in the example I gave for the Reavers would cost about the same amount of points. Maybe slightly less, but certainly not half.

I really don't understand why people get so irrationally pot comitted to their notion that unit X is bad. If people like a unit, and having success with that unit, who are you to try to invalidate their very real success on the internet? It's such a strange and alien notion to me.

I don't understand why people defend the units, that have received uncalled for and irrational nerfs. We should all be upset. I know GW is probably not going to give a crap anyway, but there is absolutely nothing to be happy about, when we're talking about Wyches, Reavers (and more). It's not that they are useless or something. It's just that they could've been handled much better. It's not even about the power level of the book in general. It's just that the army got a little bit more boring. Remember 4th ed Necrons? They rocked the tables, but they were the most boring army ever made.

I'm also sad that my favourite DE model has lost purpose in my army. I loved the fluffy flyby attack.

Wyches assault. 10 marines, one with a flamer, is putting an average of three wounds on Wyches in overwatch.

First, ~1 Marine dies from the pistol shots. Then, ~2 Wyches die to Overwatch.

7 Wyches make it into assault. The 6 wyches are putting out 18 attacks, which will hit on 4+'s, killing 1 marine on average. The Hekatrix is putting out 4 AP3 attacks that hit on 4's and wound on 4's, which nets an average of one dead marine. The remaining eight marines return fire with 9 attacks, strength 4 and hitting on 4's, which will kill on average 2 wyches. End of round one and you have an average of 5 dead wyches and 2 dead marines. Second round, the four wyches will kill zero marines on average, while the Hekatrix will kill 1- the Marines will kill 1 and you stay tied in that slap fight for a few more turns, until all the wyches are dead near the end of the game.

Okay, a couple things wrong here. First, as mentioned about, the fight will likely start off 8 Wyches versus 9 Tacs. Second, the Wyches will have something from drugs, and 5/6 results help them with this fight. Lets try +1 Attack just for fun.

Normal Wyches kill 1.55 + Heka kills 1.25. That's pretty close to 3.

6 Tacs left kill .78. We'll call it 1.

So at the end of one round of CC it's 7 Wyches versus 6 Tacs. The agonizer alone kills a Tac/turn and the tacs do less then 1 Wyche/turn. Do I need to keep going?

So congrats, by spending 190 points you've managed to successfully tarpit and ultimately lose your entire squad to.... a 150 point, 10-man tactical marine squad armed with just a flamer.

190 points of what? 10 Wyches, Hekatrix/Agonizer=135. Just to be equal to the Tacs you would need to give the girls Wych Weapons or something.

And, as demonstrated above, the Wyches win. So, yeah, I would say thats a good investment.

Tactical acuity at its finest.

Indeed.

And then there's Space Wolves, who'll just outright whoop Wyches because of counter-attack. 3 dead wyches from overwatch + 3 dead wyches in assault from 17 strength 4 melee attacks = lost combat. And that's assuming they have only one flamer- they can purchase a second one.

If Counter Attack goes off....

Yeah, because of course difficult terrain does not exist, or at the least no one playing against your list will ever think "hmmm, none of his assault units have grenades, maybe I should put the units that I don't want potentially getting tarpitted into difficult terrain so that his Wyches strike last and improve my chances of winning the combat." No one ever plays Space Wolves or Iron Hands or any army where their units are simply mathematically superior in assault to your wyches. No one ever puts upgrades on their units or takes more than one special weapon if they do, no one ever bubble-wraps or supports units that they don't want getting tar-pitted by your wyches who lack EMP grenades and so only exist to try to get into CC with something.

Wyches have assault grenades.

Nope, no assumptions at all. It's a fact that everyone who plays against Dark Eldar is an idiot who doesn't know how to list build or set up his units on the table to minimize the possibility of your T3 6+/6++ units riding around in paper-mache' vehicles getting into CC with his most vital units unscathed.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

No, but they need to do put out at least one wound to avoid losing combat, which they won't on average. It's not a very good tarpit if it fails morale and runs away, is it?

Sure, that's definitely a possibility. Many things in this game are statistically possible.

In what situation are 10 Wyches going to be equally costed to terminators, who clock in at a minimum of 200 points?

They aren't. That wasn't the point.

most things you would want to try to tarpit are going to be significantly more expensive than them.

Most things you would want to tarpit aren't going to have the nasty Overwatch capabilities of Misslesides either.



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I don't understand why people defend the units, that have received uncalled for and irrational nerfs. We should all be upset. I know GW is probably not going to give a crap anyway, but there is absolutely nothing to be happy about, when we're talking about Wyches, Reavers (and more). It's not that they are useless or something. It's just that they could've been handled much better. It's not even about the power level of the book in general. It's just that the army got a little bit more boring. Remember 4th ed Necrons? They rocked the tables, but they were the most boring army ever made.

I'm also sad that my favourite DE model has lost purpose in my army. I loved the fluffy flyby attack.

I definitely understand that sentiment. I just don't agree that Wyches got nerfed, other then Haywire, which was definitely a nerf to that specific Wyche build. I'm just trying to illuminate that normal Wyches have actually been buffed, at least a little, and that's worth looking at.

Also, with Reavers, I merely think they've been changed. Using Reavers as a quick striking Assault platform appears to be much better then many people would initially anticipate.

 Exergy wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 BlackRaven1987!! wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Urien and Lelith I think. Drahzier is in there too

That's it!?!?!

Great News, eh?

really miffed the decided to make a new generic archon and a new generic succubus but no special characters...

And then give said generic succubus an illegal loadout- succubus has no access to electrocorrosive whip.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
If Counter Attack goes off....

It will. It's automatic, unless they are already locked in combat.

Ah, fair enough. Thought it still required an Ld test.


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On the flipside, though, the more I look at Lelith, the more disappointed I get.

She lost -1 Attack to everyone in BtB, a boat load of attacks against basic nubs, just to be slightly better in challenges? Oh, and WS10? Because feth Bloodthirsters (not that she'll ever wound one)? She should have gotten the Impaler for free.

But, yeah, I would rather pay the 25 points and get the old Lili back.

Can anyone tell me what the Medusae is like now?

25 points, S4 AP 3 Template


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Oh yeah, I keep forgetting Lili has rampage now, so I guess that's something. I miss the Hairnets though :(

ShadarLogoth wrote:
25 points, S4 AP 3 Template


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Oh yeah, I keep forgetting Lili has rampage now, so I guess that's something. I miss the Hairnets though :(

Won't she get that anyway if she's got the Impaler equipped?

Any news and/or rumours in this Wych Tactics Thread?

Won't she get that anyway if she's got the Impaler equipped?

Impaler just gives her re-roll wounds of 1 now, sadly, and it's 15 points to boot.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Won't she get that anyway if she's got the Impaler equipped?

Impaler just gives her re-roll wounds of 1 now, sadly, and it's 15 points to boot.

What I meant was if you have the Impaler then the shardnet has to come with it?(or hair in Lelith's case)

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Also, with Reavers, I merely think they've been changed. Using Reavers as a quick striking Assault platform appears to be much better then many people would initially anticipate.

Reavers are better than ever. In fact I think they're exceptional.

Also in this Wych analysis why aren't people factoring in combat drugs? I know they're random and one of them is pretty useless but the rest have real benefits. A S4, +1A, +1T, or WS5 Wych squad really shifts the odds. Give one Hydra gauntlets and maybe S4 and they become more punch for 10 point models.

lastly, if we're factoring in overwatch then why not the Wych's shooting phase on the way in? Four pistols and a plasma grenade should kill a marine.

Looking at the codex I think I can certainly get better value overall than I did with the last, but it doesn't feel like it's been brought up to date with 7th edition. Where is the Ignores Cover, Skyfire, etc. that is so prevalent in the rest of the game?

I feel our HQ choices are quite frankly, terrible. Urien is maybe ok but beyond that I'm sticking a Blaster on my Archon and that's it.

RE Wyches they needed some kind of buff to justify 10 ppm, whether it be 4++ vs Overwatch, Rending attacks just something. Compare to Ork Boyz at 6 ppm and you realise they aren't good value.