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blaktoof wrote:
I have daemonettes what I filed off the mouths, and added a small sized GS breast to match the slaaneshi mono boob and call them whoa-mandrakes.

I like it. I may follow suit.

blaktoof wrote:
TBH i am still shocked at the lack of assault grenades on assault units, and wyches not decreasing in points and / or gaining some buff.

Welcome to GW. IoM units get grenades, xenos and Chaos dont.

Grenades are actually the emperors divine light shining illumiting the enemy in the bushes

 Exergy wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
TBH i am still shocked at the lack of assault grenades on assault units, and wyches not decreasing in points and / or gaining some buff.

Welcome to GW. IoM units get grenades, xenos and Chaos dont.

Grenades are actually the emperors divine light shining illumiting the enemy in the bushes

I hear ya, just with every ork getting grenades pretty much, I thought that had changed. I was wrong.

ryuken87 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

[Xenos] Tyranids: very poorly balanced and and received as one of the worst GW releases to date

[IoM] Astra Militarum: good new units, great internal and external balance, widely regarded as a buff, positively received

[Xenos] Orks: terrible release, terrible internal balancing, most issues prevalent in the prior dex remaining unchanged, badly received

[IoM] Space Wolves: decently balanced, strong new units, good rebalancing of units, general improvement to army wide balance, well received

[IoM] Grek Knights: no new units, dex sized down massively, GK core buffed immensely, truer to the theme of GK than before, better overall internal balance, positively received

[Xenos] Dark Eldar: close to perfect internal balance of previous dex completely thrown out the window, loss of many flavourful army changing units, no new units at all, massive nerfs to well balanced not OP units, badly recieved???

I agree with the general sentiment that IoM armies are favoured by GW, but the previous DE codex having perfect internal balance? Really? I don't think SW was that well received, good selection of new models for sure (but questionable model designs in cases) but I'd say overall it was lukewarm. There were also plenty of GK players miffed at losing certain units, again I'd say lukewarm. IG aside all recent codexes have been bland/homogenised. DE doesn't look amazing and there are some unnecessary nerfs but some needed buffs and I think what we get will be a bit better than what we have.

I would say that all those codexes got trashed by people online, every single one of them, without exception... all for the same reasons "lots characters, why wasnt this buffed, why was this nerfed and so on"


take orks... its a huge buff with the new codex, huge increase in # of playable competitive lists, they gained instant death CC and shooting weapons, gained so much stuff from the supplement, and people still complain as in the above.

 Fishboy wrote:


Yes...they do have rending still and 4 attacks so still 5 on the charge.

Also don't forget that one of the guys posting rumors who was fairly accurate (cant remember his name) said to expect a Wych Cult book too but it might be down the road a little due to the rush to get all the other codex's out. I also would not be surprised to see Vect out there....somewhere

I suppose flocks are ok, but going to 3 wounds from 5 is pretty hard. They are cheaper at least.

As for the Wych cult, one would hope they would try to do something. But with wyches starting out so terrible, it would be tough to make anything out of them. Bloodbrides and hellions are worse. Reavers have some potential, so perhaps they could make Suppliment Reavers, but without a succi on a bike, I dont think anyone would buy in.

blaktoof wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
TBH i am still shocked at the lack of assault grenades on assault units, and wyches not decreasing in points and / or gaining some buff.

Welcome to GW. IoM units get grenades, xenos and Chaos dont.

Grenades are actually the emperors divine light shining illumiting the enemy in the bushes

I hear ya, just with every ork getting grenades pretty much, I thought that had changed. I was wrong.

Orks get them, because the Emperor knows they can't use the damn things. Initiative 2 isn't helped by grenades.

 Exergy wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
TBH i am still shocked at the lack of assault grenades on assault units, and wyches not decreasing in points and / or gaining some buff.

Welcome to GW. IoM units get grenades, xenos and Chaos dont.

Grenades are actually the emperors divine light shining illumiting the enemy in the bushes

Canon fodder conscript with initiative 3 for 3 points gets frag grenades. Dedicated assault jump infantry hellions with sky board for 13 points gets nothing... GW logic!

 Zewrath wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
TBH i am still shocked at the lack of assault grenades on assault units, and wyches not decreasing in points and / or gaining some buff.

Welcome to GW. IoM units get grenades, xenos and Chaos dont.

Grenades are actually the emperors divine light shining illumiting the enemy in the bushes

Canon fodder conscript with initiative 3 for 3 points gets frag grenades. Dedicated assault jump infantry hellions with sky board for 13 points gets nothing... GW logic!

or mutilators, warp talons, possessed, incubi, grotesques, wracks, mandrakes


really what was wrong with the PGL?

Because the prevalent issues from the prior codex were left untouched, with a loss of build versatility, and a terrible release being spread over the course of a month includi day 1 DLC and white Dwarf shenanigans, for a dex that May or may not be stronger than the last competitively, but really no improvement at all to the overall flexibility of the race. This is why Ork players were and are still disappointed with their dex.

I think a lot of you are confusing internal and external balance, and just seeing someone mention the word balance and assuming "balancewhinealert" without really comprehending the issue at hand. How a dex fares in the competitive scene should be the last thing on a checklist, as it really doesn't matter if you have only 2 viable units + mandatory troops in the entire dex to do it with. A well written dex is not something dictated by its tournament performance, and being given an updated badly written dex is a fair enough reason to be disappointed in your dex release, especially when you know you won't be getting another shot at it for at least the next 2 years, and that you likely already waited 2 years (or many, many more) for the current one.

But wait, instadeath CC and ZORKANAUGHTS, I have no right to complain about the prevalent balance issues in my dex, terrible release and loss of a bunch of flavourful characters right, I just need to get out there and spend a bunch of cash so that I can play my army once again at a similar level to my least one? This is what it's really about right?

 Exergy wrote:
really what was wrong with the PGL?

Wasn't complicated enough obviously.

I still have trouble getting over the fact that equipment with the word 'grenade' in it, doesn't count as grenades.. I mean Plague Marines throw voodoo heads infected with AIDS and that count as a grenade?

I disagree with SHUPPET concerning the ork codex balance. It got better with this new codex. It isn't terrible.

 PhillyT wrote:
I disagree with SHUPPET concerning the ork codex balance. It got better with this new codex. It isn't terrible.

Well actually then, we are in agreement, as I agree it's an improvement as well. I just think it's a very marginal one internally, going from bad shape to slightly better, and good cause to be disappointed after what, a 5 year wait was it? When my Ork friends explain their un satisfaction with the codex I can't actually contest it any way, because I know if it was me I'd be pretty deflated by the whole thing as well. It's a pretty meh upgrade, with almost a million things that could have been balanced better just on first glance of the dex, with as always a bunch of unplayable trash. Far more than anythinin the 5E DE codex that people are claiming had terrible internal balance lool, I can see where the complaints stem fromEspecially considering the money squeeze shenanigans involved with that release being off the ricter.

 docdoom77 wrote:
So, now that Mandrakes don't suck does anyone have any good ideas for counts as Mandrakes? I don't want to pay out the butt for finecast.

I was thinking either Daemonettes or Dark Elf Sisters of Slaughter might work well.

Warhammer Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.

I think Wood Elf Wardancers would work too.

yeah,

 docdoom77 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I have daemonettes what I filed off the mouths, and added a small sized GS breast to match the slaaneshi mono boob and call them whoa-mandrakes.

I like it. I may follow suit.

I've done this with talos mini arms to make wracks.
and plan on doing it with fire arms (not sure of source) to make womandrakes.

Panic...

 SHUPPET wrote:
Who remembers when a codex announcement meant a likely improvement and something to look forward to, including new units? What do I have to be happy about here?

Exactly!

I spent US$220 on pre-ordered items for this release and I feel like a fething idiot. I know I only have myself to blame, but I got caught up in the excitement of the Dark Eldar update and didn't apply some common sense before ordering the codex, cards, and the new models. I am sure the models will be lovely, but as leaks about the codex and supplement are revealed I am becoming more and more dissatisfied with my purchase. I don't want to even play my army with this codex.

Yeah, this is some bad knee jerking on my part, but I felt this way about the IG codex at this stage of pre-release, and when that book came out the disappointment carried on. So, any hope that my opinion will change on the DE codex once I have it in hand is fleeting.

This process just isn't fun any more. I'm not quitting the game or selling my armies, but GW has lost any sort of impulse buys from me until there are some fundamental changes within the company.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Because the prevalent issues from the prior codex were left untouched, with a loss of build versatility, and a terrible release being spread over the course of a month includi day 1 DLC and white Dwarf shenanigans, for a dex that May or may not be stronger than the last competitively, but really no improvement at all to the overall flexibility of the race. This is why Ork players were and are still disappointed with their dex.

I think a lot of you are confusing internal and external balance, and just seeing someone mention the word balance and assuming "balancewhinealert" without really comprehending the issue at hand. How a dex fares in the competitive scene should be the last thing on a checklist, as it really doesn't matter if you have only 2 viable units + mandatory troops in the entire dex to do it with. A well written dex is not something dictated by its tournament performance, and being given an updated badly written dex is a fair enough reason to be disappointed in your dex release, especially when you know you won't be getting another shot at it for at least the next 2 years, and that you likely already waited 2 years (or many, many more) for the current one.

But wait, instadeath CC and ZORKANAUGHTS, I have no right to complain about the prevalent balance issues in my dex, terrible release and loss of a bunch of flavourful characters right, I just need to get out there and spend a bunch of cash so that I can play my army once again at a similar level to my least one? This is what it's really about right?

I think you're the one misunderstanding poor internal balance here.
We aren't measuring their power from a tournament standpoint alone, it's more simply due to the fact that if you took a squad of 9 Reavers with upgrades you where almost guaranteed to never make their points back, so why bother if you could get 2x5 warriors with Venom instead for same price? Speaking of the Venom, did you EVER see anyone in the world who DIDN'T get the no-brainer upgrade for 10 points for a splinter cannon? Why would you ever take scourges when their insane prices would only handicap your list with subpar performance and now your list lacks a Venom. Why would you ever take a Talos when the Talos was slower than a sloth and your army desperately needed AT which the Ravager did, so 1 Talos = 1 less Ravager, which you couldn't afford with your lackluster AT. The list goes on and on, but as others have mentioned before, the DE 5th codex is the textbook example of horrible internal balance.

@darktraveller I feel you man. At best, this codex will be on par with the last one, except require a bunch of money to keep playing the same army at the same level, by buying all the new models they decided to make playable as well as the new codex that allows me to do it.

Why not just leave the playable units playable and focus on fixing the trash tier units? Because no we have to rework our entire armies, and this is exactly what GW needs to stay afloat. It's ridiculous to me how GWs customers have acclimatised to this and just suck it down like soup nowadays, expecting that if you see any sort of improvement on the competive scene you have no reason to complain, no matter how many models your dex limits you to do so and no matter what the cost needed or how much of your old army you need to replace just I have a playable build. The fact that they nerfed even a single unit at was playable pans clearly not OP shows the mind state of both GW and it's supporters for this release, except they didn't just nerf one they nerfed plenty. I can't get behind the people calling this an improvement. At best, a side grade, a very expensive side grade at that, which is not an improvement at all. And what's far more likely is that we just lost a much better dex for a linear ass dex highly limited by its FOC and lack of valid troops. But hey I guess that remains to be seen, just going off the info we have so far though this is how it's looking.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Because now we have to rework our entire armies

I think you must have missed the last 20 years if you think this is in anyway a new thing...

edit: That being said, I think it's a bit early to start the weeping and gnashing. Insert anecdote about the Codex: Eldar thread here.

 Ovion wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
So, now that Mandrakes don't suck does anyone have any good ideas for counts as Mandrakes? I don't want to pay out the butt for finecast.

I was thinking either Daemonettes or Dark Elf Sisters of Slaughter might work well.

Warhammer Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.

I think Wood Elf Wardancers would work too.

Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.

I think for Wood Elves, the Dryads are a better fit.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. Folks who collect one list for their army do not weather edition and codex changes well. Folks who collect armies do much better.

If you aren't prepared to break off a bunch of arms and glue on a bunch of new ones every couple years, 40k isn't for you.
If you aren't prepared to have some models in your collection sit on the shelf for a couple years, while others that were sitting up there come down, 40k isn't for you.

Collect diversely and you'll find you welcome edition/codex changes as a breath of fresh air.

/tg/ has the codex leaks up.

Some of the artifacts seem very interesting. There is an armor that gives -2 leadership to units in 6'' and archangel of pain that is one use only, all units in 9" take a -2 leadership test and takes wounds equal to the difference. I was thinking of having wraithguard with a spiritseer drop down with no scatter thanks to the web way portal. Between the -2 leadership debuffs and the spiritseers psychic shriek you can do a lot of damage and then you could open the archangel of pain to deal with everyone in a 9'' radius.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
So, now that Mandrakes don't suck does anyone have any good ideas for counts as Mandrakes? I don't want to pay out the butt for finecast.

I was thinking either Daemonettes or Dark Elf Sisters of Slaughter might work well.

Warhammer Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.

I think Wood Elf Wardancers would work too.

Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.

I think for Wood Elves, the Dryads are a better fit.

Kroot with the rifle barrels shortened and the blades cut off to represent baleblast.

 Oaka wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
So, now that Mandrakes don't suck does anyone have any good ideas for counts as Mandrakes? I don't want to pay out the butt for finecast.

I was thinking either Daemonettes or Dark Elf Sisters of Slaughter might work well.

Warhammer Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.

I think Wood Elf Wardancers would work too.

Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.

I think for Wood Elves, the Dryads are a better fit.

Kroot with the rifle barrels shortened and the blades cut off to represent baleblast.

Also a thought. I'm gonna have to give this a good, long think.

 SHUPPET wrote:
@darktraveller I feel you man. At best, this codex will be on par with the last one, except require a bunch of money to keep playing the same army at the same level, by buying all the new models they decided to make playable as well as the new codex that allows me to do it.

Why not just leave the playable units playable and focus on fixing the trash tier units? Because no we have to rework our entire armies, and this is exactly what GW needs to stay afloat. It's ridiculous to me how GWs customers have acclimatised to this and just suck it down like soup nowadays, expecting that if you see any sort of improvement on the competive scene you have no reason to complain, no matter how many models your dex limits you to do so and no matter what the cost needed or how much of your old army you need to replace just I have a playable build. The fact that they nerfed even a single unit at was playable pans clearly not OP shows the mind state of both GW and it's supporters for this release, except they didn't just nerf one they nerfed plenty. I can't get behind the people calling this an improvement. At best, a side grade, a very expensive side grade at that, which is not an improvement at all. And what's far more likely is that we just lost a much better dex for a linear ass dex highly limited by its FOC and lack of valid troops. But hey I guess that remains to be seen, just going off the info we have so far though this is how it's looking.

Other than the beast-star no longer being viable, but with the change to 7th it was already mostly dead ie it can only hold 1 objective and was not obj secure. and wyches losing haywire, I think the playable units are still playable.

Kabalites are cheaper, so the cost of a 5 man venom squad with blaster is actually the same as before.

Trueborn are cheaper- IIRC blasters are also now cheaper. Loss of carbines is not fun, but with venoms and splinter rifles on warriors many people took trueborn with blasters anyways, so it was just a nerf to possible variety given the buff to splinter racks, but not a real nerf to something that was there.

Ravagers did get hit, cost hike, and it looks like they lost aerial assault so one of the dark lances is now snap shotting if the thing moves, no idea why that was done.

Vect although Iconic, was not really viable due to cost so very few people used him, sad that he is currently gone but not really going to miss the option to take something I never took, or saw since the release of DE being fielded.

Wyches only real viable niche last edition was haywire, which is gone and they received nothing to make up for it. for a long time people didn't even run wyches even with haywire so its not that huge of a loss. Ironically you could take an archon with 12 lhameans and just use wyche models, you dont get combat drugs but 3 attacks on the charge that wounds on a 2+ is no joke for 10 pts. I think it will be hard to pass up the 4 medusae and archon in venom with wwp "bomb" though for the lhameans.

although beaststar may be dead there is not the option to take MSU beasts with the 6 FA detachment, essentially breaking the old beast-star down into multiple smaller units for target saturation/clearing fast small OB SEC units

If anything kabalite lists look to be going back to more original lists of just a bunch of kabalite warriors cruising in raiders shooting stuff, and some venoms with trueborn and blasters, and ravagers. because come on, why take a void raven for 200pts for AT when you can get a Ravager for 125. Which when you look at it is what competitive dark eldar lists have always been if allies are not included. so no real net change. less cost on warriors and trueborn and archon is just offset by the increased cost on venoms/raiders/ravagers netting close to no change in models in an army.

 pretre wrote:
I have said it before and I'll say it again. Folks who collect one list for their army do not weather edition and codex changes well. Folks who collect armies do much better.

If you aren't prepared to break off a bunch of arms and glue on a bunch of new ones every couple years, 40k isn't for you.
If you aren't prepared to have some models in your collection sit on the shelf for a couple years, while others that were sitting up there come down, 40k isn't for you.

Collect diversely and you'll find you welcome edition/codex changes as a breath of fresh air.

As frustrating as this is to read it is true. However, when you do collect an army and not a list, and see elements of that army languish year after year, and go through two editions without any improvements (wyches) it is hard not to get resentful of the entire process.

My sig is out of date, and I probably have closer to 10,000 points of DE now, and this codex change tastes like a breath of rancid, hobo exhaust.

docdoom77 wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
So, now that Mandrakes don't suck does anyone have any good ideas for counts as Mandrakes? I don't want to pay out the butt for finecast.

I was thinking either Daemonettes or Dark Elf Sisters of Slaughter might work well.

Warhammer Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.

I think Wood Elf Wardancers would work too.

Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.

I think for Wood Elves, the Dryads are a better fit.

I use Dryads for Haemonculi and a base for a lot of my Grotesques, so I don't really look to them.

They're also a little big I think for Mandrakes.

I may pick up some Wardancers myself for Mandrakes, then some Spirit Hosts for something because they look cool. xD

Hey was just wondering what special characters made it into the codex?

Urien and Lelith I think. Drahzier is in there too

 Fishboy wrote:
Urien and Lelith I think. Drahzier is in there too

That's it!?!?!