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In the wake of the new psychic power leaks it is really getting quite annoying now how having to argue with people that is makes no sense for anybody but chaos to summon daemons. It is really getting quite tiresome. Is anybody else having these issues?

Loyalists summoning daemons make no sense. They should be trying at all cost to prevent daemon from entering realspace. Better get that world completely overrun than orks rather than tear apart the very fabric of realspace to allow the extremely dangerous predatory entities from the warp to come through.

Well radical inquisitors and traitor guard psykers, but otherwise I don't see any way they would. Orks hate demon as much as they hate anybody else, eldar wouldn't do it, SMs would veiw it as heresy, loyalist psykers would be killed for heresy, ect.

Honestly this is the way I see it. We have seen that it is going to be viable but not how the cost/benefit/consequence structure is going to work out for non-Chaos entities breaking down and using this power. The fluff does support it though as many loyalists have broken down in desperation and used a Chaos power to save themselves/mission. What does it usually cost them though? A lot and they begin to go down a dark path or even kill themselves in the process. Chaos doesn't care who uses their powers as long as they get used, in fact, Chaos daemons absolutely love it when they can break down a loyalist into giving into Chaos. From everything that has been put out there, that is roughly how it seems this is going to work. A loyalist can do it but you better hope you get control of it otherwise, it probably will make you loose the game. There might even be a clause that if you are fighting a Chaos force that they have a chance to grab control and turn it against the player that summoned it. GW warned that if you aren't CSM or daemons and you summon daemons, things can and probably will go badly for you which is enough for someone to not use those powers with anyone except Chaos.

If a space marine broke down to the point of summoning daemons he would be a CHAOS MARINE.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well radical inquisitors and traitor guard psykers

Agreed, that's the only way I can think of.

And radical inquisitors doing this would be killed off by Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle if they were in the same army.

Maybe all marines are chaos marines!

We don't know who has access to the psychic powers yet, the rulebook hasn't come out, all we have are rumors, wait 5 days and then complain

It not about whether or not it makes game sense. It's about how now all the sudden so many people think it makes sense for everybody in the galaxy to be able to summon daemons.

Turns out everyone is an alpha legion marine. Either that or GW has just given up.

 herpguy wrote:
It not about whether or not it makes game sense. It's about how now all the sudden so many people think it makes sense for everybody in the galaxy to be able to summon daemons.

Well it does make sense, psykers get possessed all of the time, there is always a chance of possession or corruption within a psyker even more so than a normal human, who also get possessed all of the time, whether intentionally or not.


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pm713 wrote:
Turns out everyone is an alpha legion marine. Either that or GW has just given up.

Either that or GW is doing this thing it's not done before called 'game balance' where not only 3 factions get access to ridiculously OP powers.

We also don't know which factions get sanctic and malefic powers, all we know is that all factions get access to deamonmancy.

 herpguy wrote:
If a space marine broke down to the point of summoning daemons he would be a CHAOS MARINE.

And Chaos Marines start somewhere. They don't get the spiky armor and outdated gear THEN start summoning daemons, they start with steps along the pathway to damnation, usually with good intentions. That Librarian who summoned daemons might have done so as he saw no other choice to protect an imperial town...but in doing so he damns himself and he knows it

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Well it does make sense, psykers get possessed all of the time, there is always a chance of possession or corruption within a psyker even more so than a normal human, who also get possessed all of the time, whether intentionally or not.

If you cannot see the difference between being possessed as the result of a failed attempt to launch some “sanctified” psychic power, and actually have learned before the battle the specifics of a spell that allows you not to be possessed, but really to invoke some daemons, and then bind them to your will, I really do not know how I can explain you the problem.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Either that or GW is doing this thing it's not done before called 'game balance' where not only 3 factions get access to ridiculously OP powers.

GW? Balance? 7th edition? You must be kidding.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
We also don't know which factions get sanctic and malefic powers, all we know is that all factions get access to deamonmancy.

No, we know. Look at the latest scans. Everyone with psykers (balance, lololol), except tyranids (balance, lololol) get access to both part of the daemonology, except for GK which have only sanctic (but perils only on double 6) and daemons (same idea, but invert sanctic for malefic).


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nobody wrote:
They don't get the spiky armor and outdated gear THEN start summoning daemons, they start with steps along the pathway to damnation, usually with good intentions.

I am pretty sure they do. Learning to summon daemons usually takes longer than adding spikes to your armor. Because, you know, summoning daemons is totally forbidden knowledge and it is extremely dangerous, so you usually do not rush it. On the other hand, adding spikes to your armor… I am pretty sure even loyalists know how to do that .

I would be more accepting of this if we could use Living Saints or LotD to represent any Daemons summoned.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Well it does make sense, psykers get possessed all of the time, there is always a chance of possession or corruption within a psyker even more so than a normal human, who also get possessed all of the time, whether intentionally or not.

If you cannot see the difference between being possessed as the result of a failed attempt to launch some “sanctified” psychic power, and actually have learned before the battle the specifics of a spell that allows you not to be possessed, but really to invoke some daemons, and then bind them to your will, I really do not know how I can explain you the problem.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Either that or GW is doing this thing it's not done before called 'game balance' where not only 3 factions get access to ridiculously OP powers.

GW? Balance? 7th edition? You must be kidding.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
We also don't know which factions get sanctic and malefic powers, all we know is that all factions get access to deamonmancy.

No, we know. Look at the latest scans. Everyone with psykers (balance, lololol), except tyranids (balance, lololol) get access to both part of the daemonology, except for GK which have only sanctic (but perils only on double 6) and daemons (same idea, but invert sanctic for malefic).


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nobody wrote:
They don't get the spiky armor and outdated gear THEN start summoning daemons, they start with steps along the pathway to damnation, usually with good intentions.

I am pretty sure they do. Learning to summon daemons usually takes longer than adding spikes to your armor. Because, you know, summoning daemons is totally forbidden knowledge and it is extremely dangerous, so you usually do not rush it. On the other hand, adding spikes to your armor… I am pretty sure even loyalists know how to do that .

In regards to your quip on balance, it's better than nothing isn't it? Would you rather 3 factions have access to ridiculous psychic powers or game balance at the expense of fluff?

 Melissia wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well radical inquisitors and traitor guard psykers

Agreed, that's the only way I can think of.

And radical inquisitors doing this would be killed off by Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle if they were in the same army.

That, and as a result of a psychic mishap. But that wouldn't take the form of a psychic power from a Lore. Unless the reason everyone has access to it is that if you roll boxcars/snake eyes, you have to roll on the daemonology table and instead of what you were trying to do you cast that power (and something horrible happens to your psyker)?
That would make sense with the "something bad is happening if you use this" comment...

But I could never see Eldar, in particular, use any of powers from something called daemonology willingly...

Re: the balance argument. Wouldn't it be better (and easier) to simply not make ridiculously OP powers? I know, I know, GW...

You can't convince me that loyalist marines summoning demons is accurate to the fluff or in any way good for the game.

 Melissia wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well radical inquisitors and traitor guard psykers

Agreed, that's the only way I can think of.

And radical inquisitors doing this would be killed off by Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle if they were in the same army.

Good thing that models from Codex: Grey Knights cannot generate Malefic Daemonology powers, per the rulebook preview on GW's site.

Same with models that have the "Daemonic" special rule being unable to generate Sanctic Daemonology powers.

 MWHistorian wrote:
You can't convince me that loyalist marines summoning demons is accurate to the fluff or in any way good for the game.

As a marine player I don't see anyone twisting my arm and shouting 'YOU MUST TAKE DAEMOMANCY POWERS'
It's the player's choice and if the player thinks that his army will suit Daemomancy powers (whether they be sanctic or malefic) then they shall have sanctic or malefic powers.

I also don't see anybody forcing you to play a marine player that is using malefic powers.

 MWHistorian wrote:
You can't convince me that loyalist marines summoning demons is accurate to the fluff or in any way good for the game.

Who says it needs to be accurate to the fluff?

Tons of people use codices for the basis of a "counts as". It doesn't need to be restricted by anything other than the players themselves.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
You can't convince me that loyalist marines summoning demons is accurate to the fluff or in any way good for the game.

Who says it needs to be accurate to the fluff?

Tons of people use codices for the basis of a "counts as". It doesn't need to be restricted by anything other than the players themselves.

Also who's saying they have to use Demon models? Just the statlines, you could be summoning Legion of the Damned or any other form of non-malevolent daemonic entity.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

nobody wrote:
They don't get the spiky armor and outdated gear THEN start summoning daemons, they start with steps along the pathway to damnation, usually with good intentions.

I am pretty sure they do. Learning to summon daemons usually takes longer than adding spikes to your armor. Because, you know, summoning daemons is totally forbidden knowledge and it is extremely dangerous, so you usually do not rush it. On the other hand, adding spikes to your armor… I am pretty sure even loyalists know how to do that .

Thousand Sons were summoning daemons as familiars long before their fall, they just didn't realize what they were summoning.

In more contemporary times I'm almost certain that every Librarian has had, at some point, a little voice whispering in their ear offering to "help" them if they'd just speak the words of power, or a chapter had captured heretical books and one of their number read them instead of destroying them right away like they should have.

/not that I have any intention of using daemonomancy with my Space Marines mind you, just pointing out how it could work.

 herpguy wrote:
If a space marine broke down to the point of summoning daemons he would be a CHAOS MARINE.

really, if a Space Marine starts summoning the forces of Chaos he becomes a Chaos Space Marine?

Seems like a jump to me.

loyal imperials summoning demons? isn't that how the horus heresy happened, consorting with the powers of chaos?
i can see if it happens accidentally, or through deception, but i can't see a loyal psyker consciously summoning demonic entities.
if you want to play an army that uses demons, play chaos marines...

morpheuschild wrote:
loyal imperials summoning demons? isn't that how the horus heresy happened, consorting with the powers of chaos?
i can see if it happens accidentally, or through deception, but i can't see a loyal psyker consciously summoning demonic entities.
if you want to play an army that uses demons, play chaos marines...

So it's stupid for an Imperial Guard psyker, who probably has little knowledge of what he's doing half the time and is out of his mind, to summon Demons of his own free will? Is it ridiculous for a librarian, lead astray, to summon Demons of his own free will?

We also have to consider that GW is going for a 'do whatever, be whatever, field whatever' stance in 7th Edition, so you have to consider that many people will be proxying stuff within armies and for their army demon summoning may make sense.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I would be more accepting of this if we could use Living Saints or LotD to represent any Daemons summoned.

But those things don't work like Chaos Daemons. Whether or not they are Daemonic in nature is debatable and certainly can be argued for, but they can't really go interchangeably with Chaos Daemons.

Also, small note, Celestine is seemingly the only magical Living Saint in the 40K studio fluff so far. In codexes, the title just refers to a person that the Ecclesiarchy has declared a Saint in life. So, as it stands, generic Living Saints aren't a thing in the game.

In the lore, absolutely not. But is this a table top game or is it a dungeons and dragons role playing game?

If you're a role player, which this game doesn't make much sense to me to be role played, then I would say your argument is valid.

But seeing that this is a game, it's a cool option to use in my opinion. I'm an Ultramarines main army guy. I love this idea.

It's also a genius way to sell more models honestly. Now I have to buy pink horrors and plague bearers.

 Troike wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I would be more accepting of this if we could use Living Saints or LotD to represent any Daemons summoned.

But those things don't work like Chaos Daemons. Whether or not they are Daemonic in nature is debatable and certainly can be argued for, but they can't really go interchangeably with Chaos Daemons.

Also, small note, Celestine is seemingly the only magical Living Saint in the 40K studio fluff so far. In codexes, the title just refers to a person that the Ecclesiarchy has declared a Saint in life. So, as it stands, generic Living Saints aren't a thing in the game.

I've seen people use lasgun-brandishing Gretchin as Imperial Guardsmen and cardboard models as Predators, I'm pretty sure if someone wants to use LotD to make a fluffy army then they can. Also, there's basically no explanation for LotD being anything but Daemons. They have no mode of travel other than appearing mysteriously from flames, they have never spoken and their armour flickers with unnatural flames.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

I've seen people use lasgun-brandishing Gretchin as Imperial Guardsmen and cardboard models as Predators, I'm pretty sure if someone wants to use LotD to make a fluffy army then they can.

I was referring to the idea of the rules or fluff officially sanctioning Celestine/LatD being used to substitute Daemons rather than a player just deciding to proxy them.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Also, there's basically no explanation for LotD being anything but Daemons. They have no mode of travel other than appearing mysteriously from flames, they have never spoken and their armour flickers with unnatural flames.

As I said, my issue is that they're not exactly the same as Chaos Daemons, not interchangeable with them. And I think it's much better to have them as these distinct entities with an air of mystery about them, rather than making them more similar to the Chaotic Daemons.

Bedides, them being Daemons is certainly not the only explanation. Their codex puts forward several different theories about what they are.

nobody wrote:
Thousand Sons were summoning daemons as familiars long before their fall, they just didn't realize what they were summoning.

If you say so. I do not care about HH at the slightest, because marinefest.

nobody wrote:
In more contemporary times I'm almost certain that every Librarian has had, at some point, a little voice whispering in their ear offering to "help" them if they'd just speak the words of power, or a chapter had captured heretical books and one of their number read them instead of destroying them right away like they should have.

We have example. Like the relictors. But using a sword is totally not the same thing as summoning actual daemons. You have to be pretty stupid not to notice that those bloodthristers/daemonettes/plaguebearers are daemons. And if there is one thing that is supposed to be more hated and with whom consort is the most unforgivable sin, even more than xenos and heretics, it is daemon. It is supposed to be an instant death sentence. Even fighting against them may condemn you, actually. So, yeah, no summoning them in front of all your pals.


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 BrotherOfBone wrote:
In regards to your quip on balance, it's better than nothing isn't it?

No, it is not.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Would you rather 3 factions have access to ridiculous psychic powers or game balance at the expense of fluff?

False dichotomy. The real question is “Would you rather have a summoning daemons psychic discipline restricted to faction that can summon daemon in the fluff, or everyone except two random armies getting to summon daemons even if it is completely contrary to the fluff, with absolutely no improvement of the horrible game balance altogether”.