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 Shas'o_Longshot wrote:

Musashi363 wrote:Name a book or any piece of fluff, when a completely loyal SM librarian summoned a demon and he didn't fall to chaos and everybody thought it was cool and didn't purge him on the spot. NOT fluffy, in fact it's pants on head.

Now you're being ridiculous. If he's summoning a daemon, he's either misguided or not completely loyal. Why would a loyalist think it was "cool"?

Well, if a loyal psyker or an Eldar summons Daemons and controls them, coordinating their attacks with the rest of the army against a common enemy, as if the Daemons were part of the same force, then it seems the loyalist think it is 'cool'.

The psyker should be instantly killed by their own people if (s)he starts summoning Daemons, and the Daemons should attack randomly, and not under control of the player who summoned them. That´s fluffy.

What is "pants on head" silly is seeing a SM Librarian or (even worse) an Eldar Farseer summoning Daemons and controlling them, while the rest of the army do nothing to purge this all-out heretic abomination.

Also, a Lord of Change summoning a Great Unclean is even worse.


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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Do you mean several bad apples, not all of which were taken care of? Can you provide examples of Salamanders falling this way?

That's a poor piece of background in my opinion. Those who become Space Wolves are supposed to be dying before they're claimed by the Chapter. That alongside their further training and indoctrination should mean that they're not afraid of simply dying. No Space Marine should be.

Yet they are.

The ATSKNF rule is (partly) propaganda. We know for sure they fear death (and failure in the eyes of their superiors, and shame, and peer pressure, and even pain if the torturer is good enough) and change sides. Thanks to the psycho-indoctrination it is really difficult to happen, but there are many novels & background entries about Marines saying ' the Emperor, I am out of here'. The result is a CSM, who no longer has ATSKNF.

I find it funny when people complain about the possibility of Marines going traitor. What about the Badab War? The Horus Heresy? Marines going traitor is an important part of the setting.

That's my main problem with it... If a loyalist does happen to summon a daemon, it is usually an accident, and not planned, or is a moment of weakness, that daemon isn't going to follow this new psyker on a whim though, they're not going to be like 'oh cheers mate, you got me out of that warp thing, I like you. Bro's for life we are' they're going to kill, rape or enslave anything and everything in sight if it suits them too. I mean why would any khorne daemon side with any blood angel. The only possible and slight explanation would be to gain further status and they have a rivalry with Ka'Bandha and the opposite way round.

Now if the powers worked in the way that the daemons summoned were random, and not in the control of either player, sort of how nids react when out of synapse range... I'd then be more okay with them.

There is no possible explanation for a loyalist librarian, summoning a daemon out of desperation and the daemon bowing to this librarian. Unless it was Tzeentch, and well, we know they aren't in control then.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
That's a poor piece of background in my opinion. Those who become Space Wolves are supposed to be dying before they're claimed by the Chapter. That alongside their further training and indoctrination should mean that they're not afraid of simply dying. No Space Marine should be.

It has been an established part of the background for a long time that marines regularly fall to Chaos. Actually, it is more of a joke now. Like :

How do you prevent a marine from falling to Chaos ?


Anyhow, I was answering to Thorgrim Bloodcrow claiming that Space Wolves are less likely to fall to chaos than Salamanders. The fluff does not go that way.

White Dwarf had a new (to me anyway) bit of fluff that said that as part of creating new Space Marines for the Exorcists Chapter a Daemon is summoned and allowed to possess the initiate and later banished.

Add in Daemonhosts and Radical Inquisitors.....

There are some on the Imperium who def do it.........

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
That's a poor piece of background in my opinion. Those who become Space Wolves are supposed to be dying before they're claimed by the Chapter. That alongside their further training and indoctrination should mean that they're not afraid of simply dying. No Space Marine should be.

It has been an established part of the background for a long time that marines regularly fall to Chaos. Actually, it is more of a joke now. Like :

How do you prevent a marine from falling to Chaos ?

Spoiler:

You kill him, that is the only way to be sure .

Anyhow, I was answering to Thorgrim Bloodcrow claiming that Space Wolves are less likely to fall to chaos than Salamanders. The fluff does not go that way.

Yeah... I never once said that. Not once. Not even a little bit. Nothing even close to that. The only thing I said in regards to Salamanders was about the 13th Company who willingly went into the Warp to battle Chaos. I never once said anything about Salamanders being more likely or saying Space Wolves were less likely.

 da001 wrote:

I find it funny when people complain about the possibility of Marines going traitor. What about the Badab War? The Horus Heresy? Marines going traitor is an important part of the setting.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:It has been an established part of the background for a long time that marines regularly fall to Chaos. Actually, it is more of a joke now. Like :

I have nothing against Space Marines turning traitor. Aside from the one piece of background though I've never seen one that has them turn purely because otherwise they would have died. Chaos tempts them, they get fed up with Imperial bureaucracy, they stand by their principles and the Imperium rejects them and whatnot. I'm even fine with them fearing failure or being forgotten. But that background suggests they did wholly out of a fear of death, which strikes me as very much out of character for Space Marines.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 da001 wrote:

I find it funny when people complain about the possibility of Marines going traitor. What about the Badab War? The Horus Heresy? Marines going traitor is an important part of the setting.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:It has been an established part of the background for a long time that marines regularly fall to Chaos. Actually, it is more of a joke now. Like :

I have nothing against Space Marines turning traitor. Aside from the one piece of background though I've never seen one that has them turn purely because otherwise they would have died. Chaos tempts them, they get fed up with Imperial bureaucracy, they stand by their principles and the Imperium rejects them and whatnot. I'm even fine with them fearing failure or being forgotten. But that background suggests they did wholly out of a fear of death, which strikes me as very much out of character for Space Marines.

How about the 3rd company of the Avenging Sons?

If a loyalist SM was to summon a daemon his battle brothers would put a bolt through his skull. That is the only response to heresy of that magnitude. He would be obviously tainted beyond redemption and sided with the great enemy. If you are playing some on the fence, renegade chapter then sure, but never, ever should this be acceptable otherwise. As I've stated in another post, fluff and background is important. It's basically the reason I play this game. If I don't like the background, no matter how good the system is I won't play...however if the system is a bit flawed but I love the setting I will. This is becoming a case of screwed up fluff and a sub par system. Disregarding this edition and just sticking with an older rule set is more than likely the way I'm going to go.

 Gridge wrote:
If a loyalist SM was to summon a daemon his battle brothers would put a bolt through his skull.

True for pre-7th edition fluff. Clearly not true now.

Now his battle brothers would brofist both him and the bloodthirster he summoned to fight for them, and then go back to battling alongside their tyranid allies in their non-battle forged force.

 Triton wrote:

 Gridge wrote:
If a loyalist SM was to summon a daemon his battle brothers would put a bolt through his skull.

True for pre-7th edition fluff. Clearly not true now.

Now his battle brothers would brofist both him and the bloodthirster he summoned to fight for them, and then go back to battling alongside their tyranid allies in their non-battle forged force.

priceless

I feel like at this point every single rule, identity, and restriction Games Workshop has ever made for anything 40k has been gone back on, violated, or been made exception to.

Also, as was pointed out earlier, this thread isn't even about that. This thread is about those among us who see no problem with fielding anything ever. I for one can understand giving the option for most psykers to use darker magic... It rarely happens, but it does happen. Just not for Eldar. What's that? Eldar get Malefic Daemonology?

This can't be right.

 Quarterdime wrote:
This can't be right.

You're not forging your narrative narratively enough.

Don't we all forget, the Emperor made pacts with Chaos to make the Primarchs anyways... They're good, bros! They know me!

Even the most radical of inquisitors would not summon a demon- that's heresy. The idea of demonhosts is that its letting a demon temporarily posses someone in a very limited and controlled way- no inquisitor would let a piking Bloodthirster on the battlefield.

Loyal imperials shouldn't be summoning demons.

This is so stupid that we have to argue that an Ultramarine librarian shouldn't be allowed to summon bloodthirsters. How low has this game become?

 MWHistorian wrote:
This is so stupid that we have to argue that an Ultramarine librarian shouldn't be allowed to summon bloodthirsters. How low has this game become?

rock bottom apparently

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
Even the most radical of inquisitors would not summon a demon- that's heresy. The idea of demonhosts is that its letting a demon temporarily posses someone in a very limited and controlled way- no inquisitor would let a piking Bloodthirster on the battlefield.

Loyal imperials shouldn't be summoning demons.

Yeah the road to damnation is getting to its end when when you start binding Daemonhosts and thinking you have it all under "control" - as mentioned earlier - apparently they summon Daemons all the time just to make new Exorcists Marines.............(White Dwarf 17)

Inquisitors are even more likely to fall to Chaos than Marines - virtually every BL novel has one of them do so.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

morpheuschild wrote:
loyal imperials summoning demons? isn't that how the horus heresy happened, consorting with the powers of chaos?
i can see if it happens accidentally, or through deception, but i can't see a loyal psyker consciously summoning demonic entities.
if you want to play an army that uses demons, play chaos marines...

So it's stupid for an Imperial Guard psyker, who probably has little knowledge of what he's doing half the time and is out of his mind, to summon Demons of his own free will? Is it ridiculous for a librarian, lead astray, to summon Demons of his own free will?

We also have to consider that GW is going for a 'do whatever, be whatever, field whatever' stance in 7th Edition, so you have to consider that many people will be proxying stuff within armies and for their army demon summoning may make sense.

i think 'out of his mind' and 'led astray' would probably qualify under 'accidentally' and 'through deception'...

 da001 wrote:
Aside from the one piece of background though I've never seen one that has them turn purely because otherwise they would have died.

All Nurgle marines turned because the feared death.

There's dozens of thousands of the guys.


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 Mysterious Pants wrote:
Even the most radical of inquisitors would not summon a demon- that's heresy. The idea of demonhosts is that its letting a demon temporarily posses someone in a very limited and controlled way- no inquisitor would let a piking Bloodthirster on the battlefield.

What about Inquisitorial heretics?

IIRC in the Ultramarines' Omnibus (I can't remember exactly which book), there is an Inquisitor who was being prepared for execution, having gone on a heretical rampage.

nobody wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 da001 wrote:

I find it funny when people complain about the possibility of Marines going traitor. What about the Badab War? The Horus Heresy? Marines going traitor is an important part of the setting.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:It has been an established part of the background for a long time that marines regularly fall to Chaos. Actually, it is more of a joke now. Like :

I have nothing against Space Marines turning traitor. Aside from the one piece of background though I've never seen one that has them turn purely because otherwise they would have died. Chaos tempts them, they get fed up with Imperial bureaucracy, they stand by their principles and the Imperium rejects them and whatnot. I'm even fine with them fearing failure or being forgotten. But that background suggests they did wholly out of a fear of death, which strikes me as very much out of character for Space Marines.

How about the 3rd company of the Avenging Sons?

Or the Space Wolves aboard the Wolf of Fenris that turned on their brothers.

The whole debate comes down to shouldn't vs can't.
A Farseer or Librarian really shouldn't summon daemons from the perspective of their faction, but that doesn't mean they can't. Just they shouldn't doesn't mean they won't.
It's still a little funny seeing how the likes of Blood Angel cannot or will not under any circumstances use pyromancy but will summon daemons though.

 Selym wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Aside from the one piece of background though I've never seen one that has them turn purely because otherwise they would have died.

All Nurgle marines turned because the feared death.

There's dozens of thousands of the guys.

Hey! You misquoted me...
That was SomeRandomEvilGuy

Look:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 da001 wrote:

I find it funny when people complain about the possibility of Marines going traitor. What about the Badab War? The Horus Heresy? Marines going traitor is an important part of the setting.

I have nothing against Space Marines turning traitor. Aside from the one piece of background though I've never seen one that has them turn purely because otherwise they would have died.

What´s the point of spending an eternity of torment reading tomes of forbidden knowledge that mutilate my soul and shatter my sanity just to be mistaken with some random evil guy?

(Just joking, of course, it happens to me too)

@SomeRandomEvilGuy: On a serious note, it is not only death the wolves feared. Also fear of having failed the Chapter and the standards of those who chose them. And more important: fear of not fullfilling the glorious destiny that MUST be part of any member of the Rout.

Think about it: all Wolves want to be part of a legend, all want songs to be composed to include them in a Saga. Of course, they want to be the Hero. But, seeing that they were not gonna make it, that they will die a shameful death, the warriors of The Wolf from Fenris chose to be the Villain.

Makes a lot of sense. And it is not the only example in the background. Lots of them, actually. Marines turn all the time, and it is usually because they fear failure, or because they feel like they are more than humans (and thus deserve aditional privileges), or because they get lost in what they do. Chaos is a concept, an emotion. Temptation is an inner enemy.

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
Even the most radical of inquisitors would not summon a demon- that's heresy. The idea of demonhosts is that its letting a demon temporarily posses someone in a very limited and controlled way- no inquisitor would let a piking Bloodthirster on the battlefield.

Loyal imperials shouldn't be summoning demons.

About Inquisitors and Daemonhosts, I would like to recommend you a book: Eisenhorn. It is (imo) one of the best books ever written for the Black Library, and it covers the matter.

Reading books about Inquisitors, sometimes it seems that about half the Inquisitors are chaos worshippers, and half of those that still consider themselves loyalists are having doubts or indulge in daemonology, heresy or worse.

Slightly off topic but still on ... My group were discussing this exact issue the other day when we thought in 7th why not just move the setting forward 5 years so the Abaddons the 13th crusade ends. instead of chaos victory at the last hour a psyker in battle manifest and transformed into a great winged creature of light turning the tide and sending the crusade back into the eye of terror.

This creature obviously being an angel would be a warp manifestation of the Emperor (you would think with billions of people worshipping him daily he would manifest as a god in all its power).

This would balance out the forces of good with those of chaos, establish in fluff the good guys ability to summon a powerful warp entity and hopefully satisfy the fluff lovers!

Just a suggestion!

 Guilldog wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
This is so stupid that we have to argue that an Ultramarine librarian shouldn't be allowed to summon bloodthirsters. How low has this game become?

rock bottom apparently

Guess who is coming back in the 7th edition DE codex!

If you summon daemons, as loyal IG, SM, Inquisition, etc. You'll be declared a heretic and have the taint of chaos in you. You will then be promptly hunted down by other Imperium forces and destroyed. Good luck justifying that summoning with the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. If your army has a Commissar your psyker would be shot immediately and the offending commander who allowed/ordered it would also be shot. I doubt even the Catachan's would save them from a swift execution at the hands of a Commissar, hell it would be the first time they would help a commissar shoot one of their officers.

'U wot u'z iz sayin dat others dan da spikey ladz be summinz dem der warp boyz! We'z need to gets to Crumpin Edz!'

But no, I seriously hope loyalist will not be summoning demons. That will just completely piss off the Exorcists Chapter only they are allowed to possess people, albeit temporarily.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
If you summon daemons, as loyal IG, SM, Inquisition, etc. You'll be declared a heretic and have the taint of chaos in you. You will then be promptly hunted down by other Imperium forces and destroyed. Good luck justifying that summoning with the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. If your army has a Commissar your psyker would be shot immediately and the offending commander who allowed/ordered it would also be shot. I doubt even the Catachan's would save them from a swift execution at the hands of a Commissar, hell it would be the first time they would help a commissar shoot one of their officers.

What about those regiments (or, hell, entire worlds) that have been raised to believe Daemons are good?


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 Raz'kull Skull Krusha wrote:
'U wot u'z iz sayin dat others dan da spikey ladz be summinz dem der warp boyz! We'z need to gets to Crumpin Edz!'

But no, I seriously hope loyalist will not be summoning demons. That will just completely piss off the Exorcists Chapter only they are allowed to possess people, albeit temporarily.

Heh.

Any psyker can summon a daemon. Doesn't matter who they are, who trained them, or how powerful they are.

Every psyker in 40k can summon daemons. This is the reason the Imperium kills most of theirs.


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 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
If you summon daemons, as loyal IG, SM, Inquisition, etc. You'll be declared a heretic and have the taint of chaos in you. You will then be promptly hunted down by other Imperium forces and destroyed. Good luck justifying that summoning with the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. If your army has a Commissar your psyker would be shot immediately and the offending commander who allowed/ordered it would also be shot. I doubt even the Catachan's would save them from a swift execution at the hands of a Commissar, hell it would be the first time they would help a commissar shoot one of their officers.

Oh yes, that's true. But they can if they want to and/or suck at controlling themselves.

 Selym wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
If you summon daemons, as loyal IG, SM, Inquisition, etc. You'll be declared a heretic and have the taint of chaos in you. You will then be promptly hunted down by other Imperium forces and destroyed. Good luck justifying that summoning with the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. If your army has a Commissar your psyker would be shot immediately and the offending commander who allowed/ordered it would also be shot. I doubt even the Catachan's would save them from a swift execution at the hands of a Commissar, hell it would be the first time they would help a commissar shoot one of their officers.

What about those regiments (or, hell, entire worlds) that have been raised to believe Daemons are good?

Being told taught that is one thing, doing the summoning is different. I'm sure the Ordo Malleus will give them the thumbs up for summoning deamons.

Ordo Malleus inquisitor in communication to offending planet while in orbit: 'sure we understand summoning deamons is a "good" thing in your society its totally forgiveable. Its just the times, you needed absolute victory so you answered the call of Choas, no problem I totally understand it was for the Emperor.' ends communication.....looks at the the Grey Knight ship captian: why are you looking at me. You know what to do, Exterminatus. Its for thier own good.'


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 DarknessEternal wrote:
Any psyker can summon a daemon. Doesn't matter who they are, who trained them, or how powerful they are.

Every psyker in 40k can summon daemons. This is the reason the Imperium kills most of theirs.


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 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
If you summon daemons, as loyal IG, SM, Inquisition, etc. You'll be declared a heretic and have the taint of chaos in you. You will then be promptly hunted down by other Imperium forces and destroyed. Good luck justifying that summoning with the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. If your army has a Commissar your psyker would be shot immediately and the offending commander who allowed/ordered it would also be shot. I doubt even the Catachan's would save them from a swift execution at the hands of a Commissar, hell it would be the first time they would help a commissar shoot one of their officers.

Oh yes, that's true. But they can if they want to and/or suck at controlling themselves.

I forgot to end that properly..... and then they shoot the commissar



you all realize i'm just stiring the pot/kicking the hornet's nest...right

Side note: It's explicitly stated that the Exorcists space marines chapter's daemon possession schtick that if it were ever discovered, they'd be prosecuted for the crime.

Now, I'm pretty sure summoning daemons is even worse than the exorcists' alleged practice of posessing and then exorcising daemons from their neophytes.

Again, you guys are looking at this from the perspective of old, outdated fluff.

In 7th edition 40K, not only can everybody except the Grey Knights summon daemons freely, they also apparently gain a ton of control over the daemon. Ultramarines fighting Plague Marines can summon a Great Unclean One, and that Great Unclean One will not simply slaughter the Ultramarines, it will actually go after the Plague Marines. This is a massive departure from the way things were before.

7th edition obviously makes significant changes to the lore.