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It was just a joke.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
It is what it is, right? Seriously, that's what Dust and more specifically Paolo is all about. Know it going in and also know that your personal outrage isn't going to change it. I'm reminded of a long argument on another forum where someone was equally outraged that she couldn't play a female Space Marine in the Space Marine console/PC game and hurfblurf the background is bad they should change it for me.

"Personal outrage"? Talk about hyperbole. All I see is a little bit of weary headshaking spiced with an eyeroll or two. If you read that as outrage then maybe you need to learn to deal better with differing opinions.

hmm....

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

If not getting to $500k means the Sisters will never see the light of day, color me a happy man.

Uh huh. No sign of outrage there. Nothing beyond weary headshaking or an eyeroll in "I'll be happy if they don't get to fund that".

How in the heck did you get outrage from that? Outrage would be me going on some huge spiel about the portrayal of women in wargaming or even throwing in the towel on the game entirely. Please either back off or take it to private messages - this thread is for discussing the KS, not pointlessly grinding axes.

~Tim?

Axe grinding? I don't really even know who you are (or care, truth be told). I also don't really care about this campaign (not interested, not hope they don't fund.)

You seemed so offended by these figures that you declared that you hope they don't fund - and that would "color me a happy man." which seems pretty much like a stock case of personal outrage - especially when the $500k stretch gives them to people as a freebie and they're otherwise purchasable as an add-on anyway.

So maybe you should back off and leave it alone now? Please don't take it to PM though - I'm not interested.

Well, as it looks like you're determined to take the most negative possible view of everything I've said so far, and seeing that I cannot seem to even begin to fathom why you're taking such a negative spin on things, AND as you're getting progressively more and more passive-aggressive, there's essentially no point continuing this conversation.

~Tim?

Oh, for feth's sake...

Such a negative view? Negative spin? And you accused me of hyperbole? I simply read your RAW, and they were pretty clear. Don't make a stupid comment and then get all butthurt when someone else calls or questions you on it.

Just because it's the internet doesn't mean a person can't change their position or admit if they said something silly or was wrong. Acting like your feelings are hurt and like I'm taking point to "everything I've said so far" is patently ridiculous.

I called you out on this:

It's Paolo Parente. The girls are what it says on the tin. No need to hope they don't fund or get outraged. Maybe it's not for you, or you just don't like the figures. Either is also fine, but no need to get so worked up about it that you hope they don't fund in order to be a happy man.

If you feel there's no point in continuing this conversation instead of acting like an adult and thinking about and properly reflecting on what you said, then perhaps you should stop replying to me? Unless you feel that you need the last word that desperately? Which is pretty much the only point I can see of your last post.

I don't understand the problem Paolo Parente's females look very realistic to me

Does anyone know about the Attack and Transport helicopters available to the SSU? Is the attack helicopter especially fragile and can the transport chopper carry other units or just the volunteers in the box? Is there any way to field them outside of the SSU?

This may not seem related to the KS but I like the two helicopters so much that they will influence which army I might pledge for. The problem is, while I like the SSU Infantry and the Steel Guard, I don't care for the walkers available in the KS (although I understand I can field a single captured walker) and I really hate the SSU tanks. So that's quite a price to pay all so I can field some choppers!

On the other hand I like everything included with the $150 Axis army buuut they get the jets which aren't as appealing to me :(

For some reason I think I saw there was going to be a Zomicide crossover for this. Am I right or did I imagine it?

overtyrant wrote:
For some reason I think I saw there was going to be a Zomicide crossover for this. Am I right or did I imagine it?

I don't think it was supposed to be a Zombicide crossover, more that Paolo Parente (Dust creator) was doing character concept art for Zombicide (guest boxes, like the others we seen).

Here you go.

Thanks, at least I know I'm not as crazy as I thought!

 Siygess wrote:
Does anyone know about the Attack and Transport helicopters available to the SSU? Is the attack helicopter especially fragile and can the transport chopper carry other units or just the volunteers in the box? Is there any way to field them outside of the SSU?

This may not seem related to the KS but I like the two helicopters so much that they will influence which army I might pledge for. The problem is, while I like the SSU Infantry and the Steel Guard, I don't care for the walkers available in the KS (although I understand I can field a single captured walker) and I really hate the SSU tanks. So that's quite a price to pay all so I can field some choppers!

On the other hand I like everything included with the $150 Axis army buuut they get the jets which aren't as appealing to me :(

The SSU helicopters are supposed to be pretty good. My friend has the transport but I haven't played against it yet. I believe they can transport any units not just the one included. You should check out the other SSU walkers not in this Kickstarter if you haven't seen them. They are some of my favorites in the game, but I'm not crazy about the Babylon ones. Battlefront can't sell these while FFG still has stock so you won't see them available on the Kickstarter or the Battlefront website:

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/ffgdt068.html

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/ffgdt035.html


On a side note, the total is just a few thousand away from unlocking the free walker body and 50k from unlocking the mercenaries as a free add-on. Could be less if the FLGS pledges have gone over the $100k they stated previously.

If you are playing tactics you can field what you want and the chopper can transport any soldier unit (not sure about froggies).
In warfare it is available as a support unit to I think every platoon and can again transport any squad. They are survivable as any other aircraft being Air 2 class with 6 hit points.
The walker transport chopper only works with 'aero' walkers, it comes with one. That can be a deadly combo but lots of points, good in a large game.

Attack choppers are just plain deadly to ground units.

Choppers can be just as fast as planes or they may hover. I think planes roll on inverted dice firing air to air and choppers don't? Anyway they kick ass and are ssu only.

 Siygess wrote:
Does anyone know about the Attack and Transport helicopters available to the SSU? Is the attack helicopter especially fragile and can the transport chopper carry other units or just the volunteers in the box? Is there any way to field them outside of the SSU?

This may not seem related to the KS but I like the two helicopters so much that they will influence which army I might pledge for. The problem is, while I like the SSU Infantry and the Steel Guard, I don't care for the walkers available in the KS (although I understand I can field a single captured walker) and I really hate the SSU tanks. So that's quite a price to pay all so I can field some choppers!

On the other hand I like everything included with the $150 Axis army buuut they get the jets which aren't as appealing to me :(

Gotta say, despite some pretty severe initial hiccups, this KS is now a pretty dang good deal, thanks to Dust Studio's willingness to listen to some of the constructive criticism from the fanbase. Wish I had $150 to drop on a pledge.

Oh, and is anyone else happy that it's now possible to construct a viable Allied infantry force entirely from the new armor 1 soldiers? One of the main things that has kept me from starting an Allied force was the fact that all I had to choose for light infantry were the rather goofy looking arctic-pattern Ranger units.

~Tim?

Just looked over this, since people seem much more positive about it now. Most of the so-called "value" of the bundles seems to come from the inclusion of character models "valued" at $15 and $20, which is way out of whack with pre-FFG pricing, and and the inclusion of the alternate weapons, which again, used to come in the box.

So a very GW mindset at work. Not surprising from Battlefront. I'll just pick up some more FFG stuff when I get a chance, and proxy other things in (including standard WW2 models) should I feel a need for new units.

Starfarer wrote:The SSU helicopters are supposed to be pretty good..

fattdex wrote:If you are playing tactics you can field what you want...

Thanks for the info guys, and you are right Starfarer - the non-Babylon SSU walkers are more my style. Looks like I will have to pledge for SSU to be safe and then just sell off the tank, as well as the 2 (soon to be 3) other walkers to get the ones I actually like. Too bad Dust aren't offering an exchange program with this KS although with the FFG issue I can understand why.

 Azazelx wrote:
Just looked over this, since people seem much more positive about it now. Most of the so-called "value" of the bundles seems to come from the inclusion of character models "valued" at $15 and $20, which is way out of whack with pre-FFG pricing, and and the inclusion of the alternate weapons, which again, used to come in the box.

So a very GW mindset at work. Not surprising from Battlefront. I'll just pick up some more FFG stuff when I get a chance, and proxy other things in (including standard WW2 models) should I feel a need for new units.

If that really is where a lot of the 'value; is coming from, well, that's not very good...

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Gotta say, despite some pretty severe initial hiccups, this KS is now a pretty dang good deal, thanks to Dust Studio's willingness to listen to some of the constructive criticism from the fanbase. Wish I had $150 to drop on a pledge.

Oh, and is anyone else happy that it's now possible to construct a viable Allied infantry force entirely from the new armor 1 soldiers? One of the main things that has kept me from starting an Allied force was the fact that all I had to choose for light infantry were the rather goofy looking arctic-pattern Ranger units.

~Tim?

The USMC stuff is pretty tempting. Although I've also toyed with the idea of a full S3 Allies army with only light walkers for support. Just a super mobile strike force basically. Still just holding out to see the Japanese before I start a second faction though. If FFG has a July 4th sale I may not be able to resist though.

 Azazelx wrote:
Just looked over this, since people seem much more positive about it now. Most of the so-called "value" of the bundles seems to come from the inclusion of character models "valued" at $15 and $20, which is way out of whack with pre-FFG pricing, and and the inclusion of the alternate weapons, which again, used to come in the box.

So a very GW mindset at work. Not surprising from Battlefront. I'll just pick up some more FFG stuff when I get a chance, and proxy other things in (including standard WW2 models) should I feel a need for new units.

You forgot the entire Achilles expansion, which is free for any pledge over $100. Additionally, it also includes dice, templates and activation counters at the $150 level for free, which are each about $12 or at least $8-10 at the discount retailers. Those 2 freebies alone account for $60-75 of value depending on if you want to factor there value pre or post online retail prices.

On top of that, the heavy walkers have only ever had 1-2 weapon combinations, so aside from the light and medium walkers, those aren't far off FFG's previously offerings. Considering they're tossed in an extra walker body and weapons set as freebies, you're getting a full walker, rather than one walker with multiple load outs. I'll take that over the box of unused extra weapon arms I have from my FFG sets. Also the character models are all $10 each, not $15 and $20. Maybe you were looking at premium characters?

It's fine if this isn't of value to you. After all, if you are just getting started, the cheaper FFG stuff is a better bargain, and I always grab that up when it is cheap. But comparing clearance prices on FFG stock to a Kickstarter as some even measure of price comparison is pretty disingenuous.

$450k hit; additional walker bodies added to the army sets. So 'free tank' essentially.

And I am loving this guy



Looking like something out of C&C Red Alert.

 Starfarer wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Gotta say, despite some pretty severe initial hiccups, this KS is now a pretty dang good deal, thanks to Dust Studio's willingness to listen to some of the constructive criticism from the fanbase. Wish I had $150 to drop on a pledge.

Oh, and is anyone else happy that it's now possible to construct a viable Allied infantry force entirely from the new armor 1 soldiers? One of the main things that has kept me from starting an Allied force was the fact that all I had to choose for light infantry were the rather goofy looking arctic-pattern Ranger units.

~Tim?

The USMC stuff is pretty tempting. Although I've also toyed with the idea of a full S3 Allies army with only light walkers for support. Just a super mobile strike force basically. Still just holding out to see the Japanese before I start a second faction though. If FFG has a July 4th sale I may not be able to resist though.

That's exactly what I was planning on doing until I saw the new armor 1 units! Still, a S3/Light Walkers only army does sound like a lot of fun thematically. Plus, the Light Walkers and the S3 units are really nice kits.

Also: free tank? Cool! Now I REALLY wish I had the cash to pledge...

~Tim?

Isn't that why god invented the credit card?

 Starfarer wrote:

You forgot the entire Achilles expansion, which is free for any pledge over $100. Additionally, it also includes dice, templates and activation counters at the $150 level for free, which are each about $12 or at least $8-10 at the discount retailers. Those 2 freebies alone account for $60-75 of value depending on if you want to factor there value pre or post online retail prices.

True, but then Achilles is limited to one per backer, rather than one per pledge level, so that part kind of drops in value if you go bigger. I'm always dubious about a few counters being valued at $10 or $15 as well, generally speaking.

On top of that, the heavy walkers have only ever had 1-2 weapon combinations, so aside from the light and medium walkers, those aren't far off FFG's previously offerings. Considering they're tossed in an extra walker body and weapons set as freebies, you're getting a full walker, rather than one walker with multiple load outs. I'll take that over the box of unused extra weapon arms I have from my FFG sets. Also the character models are all $10 each, not $15 and $20. Maybe you were looking at premium characters?

I'd admit, I missed the second walker chassis. That goes some way to fixing it up. You're also correct on the heroes - I was looking at the premium ones rather than the "normal" - though even there $10 is steep - although conversely depending on the quality of the paint, $15/20 could be considered cheap for the premium ones (depends very much on the paint quality).

It's fine if this isn't of value to you. After all, if you are just getting started, the cheaper FFG stuff is a better bargain, and I always grab that up when it is cheap. But comparing clearance prices on FFG stock to a Kickstarter as some even measure of price comparison is pretty disingenuous.

I was actually comparing the more regular prices of the FFG stuff - that I've been picking up bits and pieces for for the last few years - not clearance. Though a KS in theory should have some nicer price breaks.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Just looked over this, since people seem much more positive about it now. Most of the so-called "value" of the bundles seems to come from the inclusion of character models "valued" at $15 and $20, which is way out of whack with pre-FFG pricing, and and the inclusion of the alternate weapons, which again, used to come in the box.

So a very GW mindset at work. Not surprising from Battlefront. I'll just pick up some more FFG stuff when I get a chance, and proxy other things in (including standard WW2 models) should I feel a need for new units.

If that really is where a lot of the 'value; is coming from, well, that's not very good...

This is basically why I backed out over the weekend... I was at my FLGS over the weekend and they had some of the new non-FFG Dust models for sale, they were priced significantly higher and came with far less. Atleast when GW raises prices you usually get the same amount of stuff...

The free Achilies expansion isn't really any added value for me, I've already got it...

Just be careful with the Dust premium line stuff. I've purchased a couple of them over the years and I've never really been overly impressed by the paint job. Generally for the price difference I can pay my commision painter to paint me up something to a higher standard...

I think the value is fine. They can't make it cheaper the the MSRP or it'd screw over retailers (as they go to retail at the same time as the kickstarter). They've been pretty open about this, and most retailers seem happy about it.

I mean if you want to compare it to GW. With this kickstarter you get:

SSU:
3 Walkers (slightly larger the dreadnaughts)
1 Massive tank (They're about the same, if not larger then a landraider)
13-15 infantry
3 heavy infantry
Decals
Token
Dice
Unit cards
Campaign Book
Operation Achillies box with maps, books, and three minis

For the same price as a Warhammer battleforce.

Respectfully I ended up pulling my pledge.

They improved during the course of the KS to be sure, but even now the real value of their offering still comes out to what i'll end up paying at Miniatures Market, and there i'll be able to do it piece-meal instead of upfront with shipping costs, etc...

I think a lack of exclusive anything made it pretty easy to bail. If the heroes, for example, were KS exclusive, I would've stayed in, AND felt ok about it as it is now an inoffensive value proposition. With no exclusives... its just kind of a loan to a company I don't particularly like (Battlefront, not Dust Studios).

I do have an outstanding preorder for a bunch of this stuff though at better online prices, and I am very excited to get my 2.0 hardcover, etc, this month.

I get that. I'm trying to start an SSU army so it was a pretty easy call for me.

And you're right, it's basically a pre-order so they can get new stuff in stores. I think they know this, which is why there aren't any kickstarter exclusives. The company is probably just as happy if you pre-order from retail.

Never played Dust, saw this Kickstarter and thats $600 gone

Not sure if will ever get to play it much but the premium armies look great - also will work as Astra Millitarium as well. the SSU walkers as Orks - so win win

I guess I should look into if the game is any good

I jumped in when the free and discounted add-ons started piling up. It seems like a good deal, as for me even the normal non-discounted units seem cheap. Of course, the last wargame I seriously invested in was WHF, so...

I think saying battlefront is being GW-esque is a bit exaggerated, just look at 40k prices and look at Dust prices (obviously GW prices go by the most common price(s)).

Small Infantry
Dust = 5x for $22; $4.4/model
40k = 10 for $29; $2.9/model

Elite Infantry
Dust = 3x for $22; $7.3/model
40k = 5x for $33-45; $7.8/model (average)

Big Infantry
Dust = 3x for $33; $11/model
40k = 5x for $50-60 or 3x for $47-78; $16/model (average)

Medium Vehicle
Dust = $33
GW = $37-65 ($51 average)

Heavy Vehicle
Dust = $45
GW = $60-74 ($67 average)

This is for 40k, the cheaper of GWs two games to play, and does not include rulebooks/dataslates, finecast, or relative size of armies used in regular play, all of which up the cost of 40k considerably.

To their credit, GW models often come with extra parts and have a degree of available customization that Dust does not, but I see this as balanced out by the pre-assembled, pre-primed nature of Dust models.

Oh, does anyone have a link to the fan made Dust Warfare cards? Most of the links I've found are dead, or only have the base rulebook units.

I'll have to wait for their pledge manager to drop, but I can't make up my mind between more Axis or starting an SSU army.

Love the steel guard designs, but how much more are they going to cost points- wise compared to the other armies? Is one Steel Guard unit comparable to 2 or 3 light infantry?

They give me a heavy SF3D vibe, which I've always liked.

...and that new Tesla tank...