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 curran12 wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Bad idea. Beings as powerful as the C'tan, who can lay waste to entire systems with a blink of an eye and make entire hive fleets run away in pure fear cannot be appropriately represented on a tabletop level.

Not when recently awakened, and half dying from starvation.
Remember how a starved and near dying Galactus got beaten to death by Hulk, and Ghost Rider, in the old Fantastic Four cartoon?
Think of the same thing here.

Yeah, that means nothing. At all.

Except everything in terms of the argument because C'tan power fluctuates wildly like Galactus, due to being energy beings who feed on Celestial bodies for nourishment.
They're incredibly similar characters. Wonder why that is? The C'tan are basically a cross between the Elder Gods, and Galactu, with unique bits thrown in.

Your argument is void. Zero. Null. Nada. See above.

How many holes do I need to point out, fine.

1. No matter how loudly you say it or how much you kick about it, the 40k setting is not the same as Marvel's. Period. Ever. This logic needs to go straight out as it is utterly meaningless. With this inane line of reasoning, I might as well say "well Santa comes from the sky, so here's rules for Santa like a drop pop because they're BASICALLY the same."

2. The fluff of the 40k universe should be the guide here, not from something else. By 40k lore, a complete C'tan is so well and beyond anything that it simply ignores it. Collections of SHARDS are enough to require the best Necron technology to contain, and when those SHARDS break out, even the Necrons are scared (i.e. Anti-C'tan Protocols).

2. Even ignoring that, it rather misses the point that these rules are completely and plainly stupid. They are 4000 points to win a game, period. There's no point in using these rules, as nobody would ever wish to play against it. It isn't a matter of firepower, it is a matter of the complete package. Not only is this thing effectively unkillable, but it makes the entire army around it effectively unkillable. There's no fluff reason, there's a selfish reason to want to use the 'haha I win' death god in these rules.

 curran12 wrote:
I might as well say "well Santa comes from the sky, so here's rules for Santa like a drop pop because they're BASICALLY the same."

Santa is not a drop pod full of presents?!

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Except everything in terms of the argument because C'tan power fluctuates wildly like Galactus, due to being energy beings who feed on Celestial bodies for nourishment.
They're incredibly similar characters. Wonder why that is? The C'tan are basically a cross between the Elder Gods, and Galactu, with unique bits thrown in.

there are a number of inconsistencies to that statement.

First: The C'Tan are not the same as Galactus. Galactus feeds on living material. The C'Tan feed on energy. Thus far we know that energy can come from both Stars and living beings. Galactus has repeatedly been stated as requiring living material to feed on. He doesn't have a choice about it. He can only choose what life he devours. The C'Tan can absolutely survive by not consuming living beings. They choose to consume living beings because they taste better.

Second: The C'tan are not like the Eldar Gods. The Eldar Gods were more akin to the Chaos Gods. Beings of sunstansial power that inhabit a realm removed from the mortal plain. The lead Eldar god (the name escapes me just now) even expressly sealed off the Realm of the Gods from the Eldar Realm.

Third: The Void Dragon, if it is real... well real in terms of in-game game, isn't starving. It's nice and warm and happy on Mars being feed and really has no reason to worry about anything right now (though when/if the Ordo Xenos finds out, it'll be an interesting day).

Back to your actual unit. Background fluff aside. We'll just say it's some sort hyper-charged amalgamation of Shards or something.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Mag'ladroth the Void Dragon
WS:5/ BS:5/ S: D/ T:10/ W:25/ I:10/ A:10/ LD:10/ 1+ (2+ that can only be negated by AP1)/ 3+
Unit type: Gargantuan Creature
Unit Formation: 1 Void Dragon
Special Rules: IWND, Fear, Fearless, God of the Material Plane, The Invincible Legion
The Invincible Legion: All Necron infantry in your army have a 4+ Feel No Pain.These benefits are lost if the Void Dragon is somehow destroyed.
God of the Material Plane: Mag'ladroth has a variety of abilities similar to psychic powers, but that need no outside interference from the foul warp. They are borne of The Dragon's own godlike power. Mag'ladroth has 5 charges per turn to use these abilities.
--------------------------------Annihilation Maelstrom: Cost:2/ 120" range/ S:7, AP:4, Assault 36
--------------------------------Cannon of Shattering: Cost:3/ 120" range/ S: D, AP:1, 10 inch blast/ Melta, Armorbane
--------------------------------The Great Dying: Cost:2/ 80" range/ 15" blast/ All units with toughness 3 or less, caught under the blast, take a test. Roll a d6. On a 2 or above, those units are instantly killed.
--------------------------------Antimatter Fists: Cost:2/ Mag'ladroth's melee attacks gain Melta, Shred, Fleshbane, Armorbane, and Lance.
--------------------------------Black Fire of The Dragon: Cost:1/ 18 inch template/ S:10, AP:1, Melta, Assault 2

Okay WS/BS 5. That's cool.

S: D....with 10 attacks. That'll kill a Emperor titan in 2 turns.
25 wounds at Toughness 10.... if you don't have AP1 posioned... wait scratch that. 3+ save is going to negate most of those attacks anyway. If you don't have a destroyer weapons, ignore it. Just flat out ignore it. You can't hurt it. It will be an absolute and total waste of time to even try and attack it with anything that isn't a D Strength weapon. Oh and you'd better have a metric crap top of D weapons trained on this monster.

The Invincible Legion: Hi! I'm gonna run The Void Dragon Shard, and 35 Necron Lords with Ressurection Orb and Phase Shifters. There's my 10,000 point apoc army. Oh and thanks to my big brother over there I get a 4+ feel no pain as well. So I have a 3+ invulnerable, Ever-living so I just get back if I fail my resurrection protocol rolls. And I can play every hand of Wound allocation shenanigans you've ever heard of.

--------------------------------Annihilation Maelstrom: Cost:2/ 120" range/ S:7, AP:4, Assault 36
- This one is actually pretty solid. I would personally make it an assault 6D6 but Assault 36 isn't as bad as it sounds.

--------------------------------Cannon of Shattering: Cost:3/ 120" range/ S: D, AP:1, 10 inch blast/ Melta, Armorbane
melta and Armorbane are redundant for D-strength weapons. You don't roll for armor penetration with D-strength weapons.

--------------------------------Antimatter Fists: Cost:2/ Mag'ladroth's melee attacks gain Melta, Shred, Fleshbane, Armorbane, and Lance.
So Melta, shread, Fleshbane, Armorbane, and lance.... and D strength attack. Hell, lets make it MEGA-ARMOURBANE DESTROYER! and roll 10D6 for armor penetration while we're at it? Oh right, it's D-strength. You don't roll for Armor pen. And Flesh bane and shread. So My wounding on 2.... now... wounds on.... a ..... 2+..... and I re-roll that..... why not just make it auto-kill?

I would recommend *IF* you want to use the Void Dragon in your games, the only way you could do it is if he is sharded. He may be all in once place somewhere (Mars...but thats a secret!) but maybe a bit fell off? That is the only way i can see it being included fluff-wise, but fluff-wise, it's your fluff so no one here should give a dam either way and should stop judging fluff.

On the rules, what i suggest you do is *NOT* use a Titian as the base line for how much damage you should do. There already are rules for a Transcendent C'Tan which are both fair and powerful, why not take one of these as your starting point and give that Shard the options to represent a Void Dragon Shard? Quite simply a 'special character' version of a Transcendent C'Tan, give him *TWO OR THREE* unique rules and maybe bump up his profile in *ONE OR TWO* places and bump up the price accordingly. Does that sound more reasonable then a 4K pt monstrosity i can in no way, EVER, see you using? I mean i don't know you, you might well have over 6K worth of Necron units laying around, but i doubt it, and playing this guy in anything under 10K would be ridiculous.

Alex

 Desubot wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
I might as well say "well Santa comes from the sky, so here's rules for Santa like a drop pop because they're BASICALLY the same."

Santa is not a drop pod full of presents?!

The c'tan are bodies of energy held within necrodermis bodies. The energy lessens as they exert their abilities, and more can be gained by devouring energy.
Adding credence/ flat out proving the argument is the imprisonment of The Outsider, also unsharded, within a dyson sphere, keeping him starved, and on the verge of death. Like Galactus.
The C'tan were never as powerful as Galactus who when fully fed is basically second to The Living Tribunal. He's a universal threat.
Reality warping? Care to post some quotes from books where they do that? They seem to just throw hilarious amounts of energy out, in creative ways maybe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I would recommend *IF* you want to use the Void Dragon in your games, the only way you could do it is if he is sharded. He may be all in once place somewhere (Mars...but thats a secret!) but maybe a bit fell off? That is the only way i can see it being included fluff-wise, but fluff-wise, it's your fluff so no one here should give a dam either way and should stop judging fluff.

On the rules, what i suggest you do is *NOT* use a Titian as the base line for how much damage you should do. There already are rules for a Transcendent C'Tan which are both fair and powerful, why not take one of these as your starting point and give that Shard the options to represent a Void Dragon Shard? Quite simply a 'special character' version of a Transcendent C'Tan, give him *TWO OR THREE* unique rules and maybe bump up his profile in *ONE OR TWO* places and bump up the price accordingly. Does that sound more reasonable then a 4K pt monstrosity i can in no way, EVER, see you using? I mean i don't know you, you might well have over 6K worth of Necron units laying around, but i doubt it, and playing this guy in anything under 10K would be ridiculous.

Alex

I appreciate your honesty and respectful attitude Alex.
But this is for a one time "what if game" where the imperial forces have a numerical advantage of 2000 points on the Necrons. The friend it's against hasn't seen the rules yet, but it already has a game set around it.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Care to post some quotes from books where they do that? They seem to just throw hilarious amounts of energy out, in creative ways maybe.

Codex: Necrons, p40: "Even in their reduced and wholly fettered state, C'tan Shard are beings of near-unlimited power. They can manifest energy blast, control the minds of lesser beings, manipulate the flow of time and banish foes to alternate realities. Indeed, a C'tan Shard's abilities are limited only by two things: its imagination - which is immense - and glimmering memories of the being from which it was severed."


And I feel bad for your friend in having such an unsporting opponent. He has agreed to the game but you didn't even have the courtesy to show him the rules?

@Curren. There is no need for that bottom sentence. Once again you seem to be letting the previous experiences with his more ...colourful, purposed rules to judge his own personality.

''You didn't even have the courtesy to show him the rules'', what do you think he posted them here for? Not to get our applause or admiration, but for help on balancing this beast. He shouldn't even have to ask specifically ''Can you help balance him?'' because that is what this entire section is about, sharing rules, not taking stabs at another persons personality for your disagreement on how he plans to play a model.

@Primordial. Even so, i would still argue a Transcendent C'Tan is by far the best place to start before adding extras. Ok, you want to make the Void Dragon the base of the game, have you though of instead of having a super powerful 'beat this, you win' model you could integrate the Void Dragon into the mission itself?

Say you start off with a C'Tan shard (Embodiment of the Void Dragon) which is basically just a normal Transcendent C'Tan which is a bit more survivable as well as your Necron army, then the rest of the game will be about keeping that Shard alive while ''empowering' it. You could maybe use objectives or relics or something, that everytime the Necron army accomplishes some goal the C'Tan Shard gets better, and everytime the Imperium accomplish a goal he gets weaker. This kind of battle would involve the other player more, you still end up with a super powerful C'Tan Shard BUT he has a legitimate weakness. Also Cinematic, Gamesworkshop loves to 'Forge a Narrative'.

Valkyrie wrote:
--------------------------------Antimatter Fists: Cost:2/ Mag'ladroth's melee attacks gain Melta, Shred, Fleshbane, Armorbane, and Lance.
So he's already Destroyer in combat, yet you think he needs Melta, Shred, Flesh/Armourbane and Lance? Seriously?

I find it kinda cute that he gave it melta when melta doesn't work in close combat, and furthermore, melta is made useless by armourbane.

On an aside, doesn't S kinda make melta, flesh/armour bane and lance useless?

He already wounds everything 2+, with re-rolls. Give him tank hunters, feth it.

 curran12 wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Care to post some quotes from books where they do that? They seem to just throw hilarious amounts of energy out, in creative ways maybe.

Codex: Necrons, p40: "Even in their reduced and wholly fettered state, C'tan Shard are beings of near-unlimited power. They can manifest energy blast, control the minds of lesser beings, manipulate the flow of time and banish foes to alternate realities. Indeed, a C'tan Shard's abilities are limited only by two things: its imagination - which is immense - and glimmering memories of the being from which it was severed."


And I feel bad for your friend in having such an unsporting opponent. He has agreed to the game but you didn't even have the courtesy to show him the rules?

Dude don't assume the worst of me.
These rules ain't even finalized yet.
As soon as they are I'll run over to his place and hand them off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:
--------------------------------Antimatter Fists: Cost:2/ Mag'ladroth's melee attacks gain Melta, Shred, Fleshbane, Armorbane, and Lance.
So he's already Destroyer in combat, yet you think he needs Melta, Shred, Flesh/Armourbane and Lance? Seriously?

I find it kinda cute that he gave it melta when melta doesn't work in close combat, and furthermore, melta is made useless by armourbane.

On an aside, doesn't S kinda make melta, flesh/armour bane and lance useless?

He already wounds everything 2+, with re-rolls. Give him tank hunters, feth it.

That ability is stupid.
And it's gone.......
Lore wise melta works fine in melee with the banelords magna melta fist thing which I believe has rules.
So melta is already in melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 curran12 wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Care to post some quotes from books where they do that? They seem to just throw hilarious amounts of energy out, in creative ways maybe.

Codex: Necrons, p40: "Even in their reduced and wholly fettered state, C'tan Shard are beings of near-unlimited power. They can manifest energy blast, control the minds of lesser beings, manipulate the flow of time and banish foes to alternate realities. Indeed, a C'tan Shard's abilities are limited only by two things: its imagination - which is immense - and glimmering memories of the being from which it was severed."


And I feel bad for your friend in having such an unsporting opponent. He has agreed to the game but you didn't even have the courtesy to show him the rules?

The problem is none of that is reality warping like "these battleships assaulting me are now ducks" which is clearly more typical of the warp.
They move around the rules of reality that are already in place rather than shooting them the bird and making new ones like Chaos.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Lore wise melta works fine in melee with the banelords magna melta fist thing which I believe has rules.
So melta is already in melee.

What? I'm looking at the BaneLord data sheet right now. There is no melta. Anywhere on it. At all. And no manga melta anything either. What are you referring to?

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Lore wise melta works fine in melee with the banelords magna melta fist thing which I believe has rules.
So melta is already in melee.

What? I'm looking at the BaneLord data sheet right now. There is no melta. Anywhere on it. At all. And no manga melta anything either. What are you referring to?

I was thinking of the Doomfist which has built In melta cannons.
It uses both the Chainfist and the melta cannons in the most awesome example of overkill in 40k.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Lore wise melta works fine in melee with the banelords magna melta fist thing which I believe has rules.
So melta is already in melee.

What? I'm looking at the BaneLord data sheet right now. There is no melta. Anywhere on it. At all. And no manga melta anything either. What are you referring to?

I was thinking of the Doomfist which has built In melta cannons.

You mean the Nemesis Doomfist? As in the fists of the Nemesis Dreadknight?

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Lore wise melta works fine in melee with the banelords magna melta fist thing which I believe has rules.
So melta is already in melee.

What? I'm looking at the BaneLord data sheet right now. There is no melta. Anywhere on it. At all. And no manga melta anything either. What are you referring to?

I was thinking of the Doomfist which has built In melta cannons.

You mean the Nemesis Doomfist? As in the fists of the Nemesis Dreadknight?

Naw the Banelord's own unique weapon the Doomfist.
Just type in Banelord Doomfist and you'll see what I mean.
In other updates I've lowered attacks to 6, and given him a 2+/4+ save.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Lore wise melta works fine in melee with the banelords magna melta fist thing which I believe has rules.
So melta is already in melee.

What? I'm looking at the BaneLord data sheet right now. There is no melta. Anywhere on it. At all. And no manga melta anything either. What are you referring to?

I was thinking of the Doomfist which has built In melta cannons.

You mean the Nemesis Doomfist? As in the fists of the Nemesis Dreadknight?

Naw the Banelord's own unique weapon the Doomfist.
Just type in Banelord Doomfist and you'll see what I mean.
In other updates I've lowered attacks to 6, and given him a 2+/4+ save.

Yeah, I'm looking at the Doom Fist on the Banelord. It's a Range 30", S:6 AP 3 Heavy, 10 weapon that also counts as a close combat weapon. Still no melta.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Lore wise melta works fine in melee with the banelords magna melta fist thing which I believe has rules.
So melta is already in melee.

What? I'm looking at the BaneLord data sheet right now. There is no melta. Anywhere on it. At all. And no manga melta anything either. What are you referring to?

I was thinking of the Doomfist which has built In melta cannons.

You mean the Nemesis Doomfist? As in the fists of the Nemesis Dreadknight?

Naw the Banelord's own unique weapon the Doomfist.
Just type in Banelord Doomfist and you'll see what I mean.
In other updates I've lowered attacks to 6, and given him a 2+/4+ save.

Yeah, I'm looking at the Doom Fist on the Banelord. It's a Range 30", S:6 AP 3 Heavy, 10 weapon that also counts as a close combat weapon. Still no melta.

feth if I know. There supposed to be melta cannons lore wise.
Melta is a rule that just adds additional armor pen. There should be no problem with adding it to a melee weapon.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Lore wise melta works fine in melee with the banelords magna melta fist thing which I believe has rules.
So melta is already in melee.

What? I'm looking at the BaneLord data sheet right now. There is no melta. Anywhere on it. At all. And no manga melta anything either. What are you referring to?

I was thinking of the Doomfist which has built In melta cannons.

You mean the Nemesis Doomfist? As in the fists of the Nemesis Dreadknight?

Naw the Banelord's own unique weapon the Doomfist.
Just type in Banelord Doomfist and you'll see what I mean.
In other updates I've lowered attacks to 6, and given him a 2+/4+ save.

Yeah, I'm looking at the Doom Fist on the Banelord. It's a Range 30", S:6 AP 3 Heavy, 10 weapon that also counts as a close combat weapon. Still no melta.

feth if I know. There supposed to be melta cannons lore wise.
Melta is a rule that just adds additional armor pen. There should be no problem with adding it to a melee weapon.

'cept... there is. Melta means you roll 2D6 for Armor pen when you're at half range. Close combat is already 0 range. So half of 0.... yeah. You don't have Melta on melee weapons. You have armourbane, which means you roll 2d6 for armour penetration. So if it's Melee weapon it gets armourbane. If it's ranged weapon it get Melta. thats the way these rules are designed to work.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Lore wise melta works fine in melee with the banelords magna melta fist thing which I believe has rules.
So melta is already in melee.

What? I'm looking at the BaneLord data sheet right now. There is no melta. Anywhere on it. At all. And no manga melta anything either. What are you referring to?

I was thinking of the Doomfist which has built In melta cannons.

You mean the Nemesis Doomfist? As in the fists of the Nemesis Dreadknight?

Naw the Banelord's own unique weapon the Doomfist.
Just type in Banelord Doomfist and you'll see what I mean.
In other updates I've lowered attacks to 6, and given him a 2+/4+ save.

Yeah, I'm looking at the Doom Fist on the Banelord. It's a Range 30", S:6 AP 3 Heavy, 10 weapon that also counts as a close combat weapon. Still no melta.

feth if I know. There supposed to be melta cannons lore wise.
Melta is a rule that just adds additional armor pen. There should be no problem with adding it to a melee weapon.

'cept... there is. Melta means you roll 2D6 for Armor pen when you're at half range. Close combat is already 0 range. So half of 0.... yeah. You don't have Melta on melee weapons. You have armourbane, which means you roll 2d6 for armour penetration. So if it's Melee weapon it gets armourbane. If it's ranged weapon it get Melta. thats the way these rules are designed to work.

I stand corrected.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Lore wise melta works fine in melee with the banelords magna melta fist thing which I believe has rules.
So melta is already in melee.

What? I'm looking at the BaneLord data sheet right now. There is no melta. Anywhere on it. At all. And no manga melta anything either. What are you referring to?

I was thinking of the Doomfist which has built In melta cannons.

You mean the Nemesis Doomfist? As in the fists of the Nemesis Dreadknight?

Naw the Banelord's own unique weapon the Doomfist.
Just type in Banelord Doomfist and you'll see what I mean.
In other updates I've lowered attacks to 6, and given him a 2+/4+ save.

Yeah, I'm looking at the Doom Fist on the Banelord. It's a Range 30", S:6 AP 3 Heavy, 10 weapon that also counts as a close combat weapon. Still no melta.

feth if I know. There supposed to be melta cannons lore wise.
Melta is a rule that just adds additional armor pen. There should be no problem with adding it to a melee weapon.

'cept... there is. Melta means you roll 2D6 for Armor pen when you're at half range. Close combat is already 0 range. So half of 0.... yeah. You don't have Melta on melee weapons. You have armourbane, which means you roll 2d6 for armour penetration. So if it's Melee weapon it gets armourbane. If it's ranged weapon it get Melta. thats the way these rules are designed to work.

I stand corrected.

I'm not trying to be an ass, though it is a talent I am uniquely qualified with. It's just when you present a unit and make use of special rules and quit literally the rules are contradictory or redundant it doesn't help people receive your idea.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Lore wise melta works fine in melee with the banelords magna melta fist thing which I believe has rules.
So melta is already in melee.

What? I'm looking at the BaneLord data sheet right now. There is no melta. Anywhere on it. At all. And no manga melta anything either. What are you referring to?

I was thinking of the Doomfist which has built In melta cannons.

You mean the Nemesis Doomfist? As in the fists of the Nemesis Dreadknight?

Naw the Banelord's own unique weapon the Doomfist.
Just type in Banelord Doomfist and you'll see what I mean.
In other updates I've lowered attacks to 6, and given him a 2+/4+ save.

Yeah, I'm looking at the Doom Fist on the Banelord. It's a Range 30", S:6 AP 3 Heavy, 10 weapon that also counts as a close combat weapon. Still no melta.

feth if I know. There supposed to be melta cannons lore wise.
Melta is a rule that just adds additional armor pen. There should be no problem with adding it to a melee weapon.

'cept... there is. Melta means you roll 2D6 for Armor pen when you're at half range. Close combat is already 0 range. So half of 0.... yeah. You don't have Melta on melee weapons. You have armourbane, which means you roll 2d6 for armour penetration. So if it's Melee weapon it gets armourbane. If it's ranged weapon it get Melta. thats the way these rules are designed to work.

I stand corrected.

I'm not trying to be an ass, though it is a talent I am uniquely qualified with. It's just when you present a unit and make use of special rules and quit literally the rules are contradictory or redundant it doesn't help people receive your idea.

You're not one if it matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 curran12 wrote:
How many holes do I need to point out, fine.

1. No matter how loudly you say it or how much you kick about it, the 40k setting is not the same as Marvel's. Period. Ever. This logic needs to go straight out as it is utterly meaningless. With this inane line of reasoning, I might as well say "well Santa comes from the sky, so here's rules for Santa like a drop pop because they're BASICALLY the same."

2. The fluff of the 40k universe should be the guide here, not from something else. By 40k lore, a complete C'tan is so well and beyond anything that it simply ignores it. Collections of SHARDS are enough to require the best Necron technology to contain, and when those SHARDS break out, even the Necrons are scared (i.e. Anti-C'tan Protocols).

2. Even ignoring that, it rather misses the point that these rules are completely and plainly stupid. They are 4000 points to win a game, period. There's no point in using these rules, as nobody would ever wish to play against it. It isn't a matter of firepower, it is a matter of the complete package. Not only is this thing effectively unkillable, but it makes the entire army around it effectively unkillable. There's no fluff reason, there's a selfish reason to want to use the 'haha I win' death god in these rules.

I love how I shut you up with background. Didn't even have to argue.

This has seen a whole mess of editing since the thread was first created, with the "Invincible Legion" rule being reduced to a 4+ FNP for infantry.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Like Galactus.
The C'tan were never as powerful as Galactus who when fully fed is basically second to The Living Tribunal. He's a universal threat.
Reality warping? Care to post some quotes from books where they do that? They seem to just throw hilarious amounts of energy out, in creative ways maybe.

So, to sum it up, you are making a suggestion in Proposed Rules, a suggestion for a character for a faction you do not have the slightest idea of and further deny basic common sense by comparing two completely different universes to make a point. Not sure how one is supposed to take your suggestion seriously if you deny basic logic and are not familiar with the respective background.

Galactus is many, many steps below the Living Tribunal in terms of power, who in turn is surpassed by the One Above All.

Lrn2Marvel.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Like Galactus.
The C'tan were never as powerful as Galactus who when fully fed is basically second to The Living Tribunal. He's a universal threat.
Reality warping? Care to post some quotes from books where they do that? They seem to just throw hilarious amounts of energy out, in creative ways maybe.

So, to sum it up, you are making a suggestion in Proposed Rules, a suggestion for a character for a faction you do not have the slightest idea of and further deny basic common sense by comparing two completely different universes to make a point. Not sure how one is supposed to take your suggestion seriously if you deny basic logic and are not familiar with the respective background.

You neglected to quote my comparison, involving background you weren't aware of.
The Outsider is imprisoned in a dyson sphere with a dead star, so he's kept starving, near death and helpless.
Like Galactus when starving.
Which alongside showing that I know more about the faction than you do, shows that Galactus, and the C'tan are very similar.
You're not fooling anyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
Galactus is many, many steps below the Living Tribunal in terms of power, who in turn is surpassed by the One Above All.

Lrn2Marvel.

You never said anything denying him being the next down from the Living Tribunal which is all I meant.

So by denying logic and displaying a lack of knowledge on said faction, you admit to your suggestion being completely random and not to be taken seriously? Well, I can live with that.

Have you considered comparing Galactus to Optimus Prime? He is the leader of his faction and was stuck in a bubble too once! So technically, Optimus Prime is a C'tan. So the Nightbringer can, technically, transform into a truck. Awesome. Comparing the lore of completely different and fully unrelated backgrounds is such an awesome and productive sport that really seems to be a good approach to back up a point!

 Sigvatr wrote:
So by denying logic and displaying a lack of knowledge on said faction, you admit to your suggestion being completely random and not to be taken seriously? Well, I can live with that.

Have you considered comparing Galactus to Optimus Prime? He is the leader of his faction and was stuck in a bubble too once! So technically, Optimus Prime is a C'tan. So the Nightbringer can, technically, transform into a truck. Awesome. Comparing the lore of completely different and fully unrelated backgrounds is such an awesome and productive sport that really seems to be a good approach to back up a point!

Are you going to keep ignoring how the Outsider was imprisoned?
It shows the two characters to be very similar, in terms of how they acquire power.
It's possible the Noctus Labryinth keeps the Dragon starved like the Dyson Sphere.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Like Galactus.
The C'tan were never as powerful as Galactus who when fully fed is basically second to The Living Tribunal. He's a universal threat.
Reality warping? Care to post some quotes from books where they do that? They seem to just throw hilarious amounts of energy out, in creative ways maybe.

So, to sum it up, you are making a suggestion in Proposed Rules, a suggestion for a character for a faction you do not have the slightest idea of and further deny basic common sense by comparing two completely different universes to make a point. Not sure how one is supposed to take your suggestion seriously if you deny basic logic and are not familiar with the respective background.

You neglected to quote my comparison, involving background you weren't aware of.
The Outsider is imprisoned in a dyson sphere with a dead star, so he's kept starving, near death and helpless.
Like Galactus when starving.
Which alongside showing that I know more about the faction than you do, shows that Galactus, and the C'tan are very similar.
You're not fooling anyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
Galactus is many, many steps below the Living Tribunal in terms of power, who in turn is surpassed by the One Above All.

Lrn2Marvel.

You never said anything denying him being the next down from the Living Tribunal which is all I meant.

There's a lot of things between Galactus and the LT.

For all the talk of galactus being the balance between eternity/infinity and death/oblivion, Galactus' feats are far less impressive. The likes of Shuma Gorath and Nebulon also exceed Galactus in power, and he certainly wasn't stopping the Cancerverse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
So by denying logic and displaying a lack of knowledge on said faction, you admit to your suggestion being completely random and not to be taken seriously? Well, I can live with that.

Have you considered comparing Galactus to Optimus Prime? He is the leader of his faction and was stuck in a bubble too once! So technically, Optimus Prime is a C'tan. So the Nightbringer can, technically, transform into a truck. Awesome. Comparing the lore of completely different and fully unrelated backgrounds is such an awesome and productive sport that really seems to be a good approach to back up a point!

Are you going to keep ignoring how the Outsider was imprisoned?
It shows the two characters to be very similar, in terms of how they acquire power.
It's possible the Noctus Labryinth keeps the Dragon starved like the Dyson Sphere.

It's implied that the shard of the Void Dragon is feeding on the life essence of the entirety of the adeptus mechanicus, slowly draining them as they cyborgize themselves more and more.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
So by denying logic and displaying a lack of knowledge on said faction, you admit to your suggestion being completely random and not to be taken seriously? Well, I can live with that.

Have you considered comparing Galactus to Optimus Prime? He is the leader of his faction and was stuck in a bubble too once! So technically, Optimus Prime is a C'tan. So the Nightbringer can, technically, transform into a truck. Awesome. Comparing the lore of completely different and fully unrelated backgrounds is such an awesome and productive sport that really seems to be a good approach to back up a point!

Are you going to keep ignoring how the Outsider was imprisoned?
It shows the two characters to be very similar, in terms of how they acquire power.
It's possible the Noctus Labryinth keeps the Dragon starved like the Dyson Sphere.

Sadly saying the Void Dragon COULD be imprisoned is a self defeating argument. By the exact same logic the Void Dragon COULD be fully fed, and healthy. And by the same logic he COULD be Over Charged. Or he COULD be the heart of some doomsday machine built by the Mechanicus. Or he COULD be the Magos Supreme, a hidden mastermind behind the Mechanicum. Or he COULD be the reincarnation of the Emperor himself, time traveled back in time from some time beyond his current state. Or he could the Fifth Chaos God Malice.

"Could be" is a very shaky ground to make this kind of argument on for these reasons.

Now then for everyone... the argument has been had. The disagreements laid out. Suggestions made. Lets call an end to it. If ThePrimordial and his friends want to use the unit as outlined, that is their choice. Lets call an end to this bickering back and forth and geek dick measuring with the "I know more about X then you" that's going on.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
So by denying logic and displaying a lack of knowledge on said faction, you admit to your suggestion being completely random and not to be taken seriously? Well, I can live with that.

Have you considered comparing Galactus to Optimus Prime? He is the leader of his faction and was stuck in a bubble too once! So technically, Optimus Prime is a C'tan. So the Nightbringer can, technically, transform into a truck. Awesome. Comparing the lore of completely different and fully unrelated backgrounds is such an awesome and productive sport that really seems to be a good approach to back up a point!

Are you going to keep ignoring how the Outsider was imprisoned?
It shows the two characters to be very similar, in terms of how they acquire power.
It's possible the Noctus Labryinth keeps the Dragon starved like the Dyson Sphere.

Sadly saying the Void Dragon COULD be imprisoned is a self defeating argument. By the exact same logic the Void Dragon COULD be fully fed, and healthy. And by the same logic he COULD be Over Charged. Or he COULD be the heart of some doomsday machine built by the Mechanicus. Or he COULD be the Magos Supreme, a hidden mastermind behind the Mechanicum. Or he COULD be the reincarnation of the Emperor himself, time traveled back in time from some time beyond his current state. Or he could the Fifth Chaos God Malice.

"Could be" is a very shaky ground to make this kind of argument on for these reasons.

Now then for everyone... the argument has been had. The disagreements laid out. Suggestions made. Lets call an end to it. If ThePrimordial and his friends want to use the unit as outlined, that is their choice. Lets call an end to this bickering back and forth and geek dick measuring with the "I know more about X then you" that's going on.

We know the Void Dragon is imprisoned. That's a fact.
Considering the Void Dragon's current stasis, it's very likely he's in the same position as the Outsider, only he has a way out. None of the others are at all likely, or the Void Dragon would have already crushed the imperium.