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My go-to beer and pretzels game is Gamma World. Although, with the scenarios I end up pulling out of my ass, we usually end up using hard liquor.

 Piston Honda wrote:

...To clarify, one of the complaints or hesitations people have about Infinity is the steeper learning curve than most table top games. ...

I would say more of an un-learning curve. The ruleset is sufficiently distinct from other tabletop games that players who have a lot of preconceived notions about tabletop games will have more troubles than people who are new to the hobby. My observation anyway. Malifaux has a similar unlearning curve, due to the cards instead of dice mechanic, IMHO.

As far as "army" goes, any force that represents less than several regiments certainly stretches the notion of the word. Unless you use the word to represent whatever *armed forces* you happen to have on the tabletop and/or in your collection, which is how I encounter it used.

 Red Harvest wrote:

 Piston Honda wrote:

...To clarify, one of the complaints or hesitations people have about Infinity is the steeper learning curve than most table top games. ...

I would say more of an un-learning curve. The ruleset is sufficiently distinct from other tabletop games that players who have a lot of preconceived notions about tabletop games will have more troubles than people who are new to the hobby. My observation anyway. Malifaux has a similar unlearning curve, due to the cards instead of dice mechanic, IMHO.

As far as "army" goes, any force that represents less than several regiments certainly stretches the notion of the word. Unless you use the word to represent whatever *armed forces* you happen to have on the tabletop and/or in your collection, which is how I encounter it used.

Agreed. After playing 40k for a long time and then getting into Infinity, the rules were a bit difficult to get used to. Notably, in Infinity, the cover rules are similar but different (requires base contact, can get cover vs templates, etc).

 insaniak wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
But the people that are arguing that Infinity is more affordable than Warhammer 40K do have a very basic point - the amount of money that you need to spend, just to play the game as it is intended, is much lower for Infinity.

Sure. And I can buy a bicycle for much less money than a car. Which is great... unless I wanted a car.

Yes, Infinity is more affordable than 40K... but that's because it's a different type of game. For those who enjoy skirmish games, that's fine. But it's still a bit of an odd comparison.

Yep - which is why I would compare it to the late-great Necromunda, not 40K.

But it does mean that Infinity can serve as an introduction to the hobby in general - with a much lower entry cost.

And that is also what a lot of those folks are arguing - get new blood into the hobby with an inexpensive game, there will be time to get your hooks into their souls later for bigger games.

That said - I came in from old style wargaming - Warhammer 40,000 would also be considered a skirmish game, for folks that grew up painting Prussians by the bushel basket. (I miss those days - that bushel basket would cost less than the starter box for 40K....)

I used to use Mordheim to snag people - and it succeeded at that task. A friend uses Necromunda.

My girlfriend was initiated into the cult of the dice by her mum - who played HeroQuest with her very young daughter.

A low entry point makes a big difference.

The Auld Grump

 Ailaros wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:has got six figures for €37 which is about £5 per figure so you could get 90 Infinity figures for the cost of the Knight Titans army.

But that's an absurd comparison.

It's like saying that if you want a cheap automobile, you should buy your next car from Mercedes because you can buy 10 Mercedes CLA's for the price of a single Honda HSV.

Boy, Honda sure makes some expensive cars, I can't imagine how poor people would ever be able to buy any...

That is my point. These comparisons are absurd.

 heartserenade wrote:
IDK man, the usual 40k army is pretty small to me if you compare them to real armies. You'd hardly call 50 men an "army". Does that mean we shouldn't be calling them armies?!?!!!!!?

If people would actually play the point size I want to play so i can field all 500 of my Eldar models then we actually could have small scale armies. I dont have anywhere near to 4,000 guys but I imagine Orks or IG could come close there if they did a 12,000 point army to match my Eldar (I think i'm actually getting closer to 13,000 and once my phantom arrives I will be over 15,000).

 Xerics wrote:
If people would actually play the point size I want to play

I think here lies your main attitude problem with the hobby.

40K is a skirmish game. The rules do not scale well up to large numbers of figures. Simply moving that many models is too time consuming and the UGOIGO turn sequence becomes more and more unbalanced the larger armies get.

 Xerics wrote:


If people would actually play the point size I want to play so i can field all 500 of my Eldar models then we actually could have small scale armies. I dont have anywhere near to 4,000 guys but I imagine Orks or IG could come close there if they did a 12,000 point army to match my Eldar (I think i'm actually getting closer to 13,000 and once my phantom arrives I will be over 15,000).

 Xerics wrote:
Infinity's rules are written for small scale battles.

 Xerics wrote:


i don't see exactly how its supposed to be cheaper.....

........I'm done.

 Xerics wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
IDK man, the usual 40k army is pretty small to me if you compare them to real armies. You'd hardly call 50 men an "army". Does that mean we shouldn't be calling them armies?!?!!!!!?

If people would actually play the point size I want to play so i can field all 500 of my Eldar models then we actually could have small scale armies. I dont have anywhere near to 4,000 guys but I imagine Orks or IG could come close there if they did a 12,000 point army to match my Eldar (I think i'm actually getting closer to 13,000 and once my phantom arrives I will be over 15,000).

Nope, sorry, still low end of battalion. You've got a couple hundred thousand models to go.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
40K is a skirmish game. The rules do not scale well up to large numbers of figures. Simply moving that many models is too time consuming and the UGOIGO turn sequence becomes more and more unbalanced the larger armies get.

Was wondering when someone would bring that up...

The basic system behind 40K really isn't much different than the original system developed back when it was first released (yes - lots has changed...but you still have the same turn system and conflict resolution...if anything it has become more complicated). That game was a skirmish game, the current version of 40K is still a skirmish game.

You can generally see it on the time each game takes to play. A normal sized game of Infinity or Warmachine (who maintain they are skirmish games) takes about an hour to an hour and a half. A regular sized game of 40K takes 3 to 4 hours (based on what I have heard...and past experience from back in the 4th Ed period). Even with the more complex rules per figure of Infinity - if you were to give yourself 4 hours to play a game...you could probably field armies that were pretty close in size to 40K armies.

By comparison - proper "army" level games (company up to around a battalion - not a full army but a couple hundred figures including vehicles and what not) take around an hour to two hours to play. Even proper army level games (though they are moving outside of "wargames" and more into systems like Axis and Allies at that point) take an hour or two to play (they can of course take much longer if you leave yourself open ended for the victory conditions...but then again, games like 40K normally end because the 6 turns are up...not because they table their opponent).

Better game designers keep things like time to play in mind though when designing their games. Store owners would rather have each table have 4 or 5 games played during the course of a night per table as opposed to one or two. Most hobbyists have a limited amount of time to play as well - and if you are playing at home on a work night (or school night for those who are still wet behind the ears) after dinner you normally only have a few hours time to do much of anything before you need to pack things up.

 Xerics wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
IDK man, the usual 40k army is pretty small to me if you compare them to real armies. You'd hardly call 50 men an "army". Does that mean we shouldn't be calling them armies?!?!!!!!?

If people would actually play the point size I want to play so i can field all 500 of my Eldar models then we actually could have small scale armies. I dont have anywhere near to 4,000 guys but I imagine Orks or IG could come close there if they did a 12,000 point army to match my Eldar (I think i'm actually getting closer to 13,000 and once my phantom arrives I will be over 15,000).

500 guys is not even close to a real life army. So by your definition, your "army" is not an army.

Bummer.

 heartserenade wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
IDK man, the usual 40k army is pretty small to me if you compare them to real armies. You'd hardly call 50 men an "army". Does that mean we shouldn't be calling them armies?!?!!!!!?

If people would actually play the point size I want to play so i can field all 500 of my Eldar models then we actually could have small scale armies. I dont have anywhere near to 4,000 guys but I imagine Orks or IG could come close there if they did a 12,000 point army to match my Eldar (I think i'm actually getting closer to 13,000 and once my phantom arrives I will be over 15,000).

500 guys is not even close to a real life army. So by your definition, your "army" is not an army.

Bummer.

I said "small" army. Is it the entire force of the eldar? No. but in modern age the actual number of people fighting on the battlefield is not 500. Usually its small squads with air support, armor support if need be and alot of troops back at the base supporting the troops at the front. So total force no it isn't an army but its more akin to it then Infinity.

 Xerics wrote:


I said "small" army.

Then why can't 10 people be a "smaller" army? When does it become an army and when does it become just a bunch of guys? Do you get to decide what people should call what they have?

So total force no it isn't an army

So don't call it an army then. Call it "something closer to a real life army than Infinity" but don't call it an "army". Because it's not. Because you said this...

What i am saying is that people buying Infinity Armies" aren't really buying armies.

...guess what in your own words you didn't really buy an army.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
But the people that are arguing that Infinity is more affordable than Warhammer 40K do have a very basic point - the amount of money that you need to spend, just to play the game as it is intended, is much lower for Infinity.

Sure. And I can buy a bicycle for much less money than a car. Which is great... unless I wanted a car.

Yes, Infinity is more affordable than 40K... but that's because it's a different type of game. For those who enjoy skirmish games, that's fine. But it's still a bit of an odd comparison.

Yep - which is why I would compare it to the late-great Necromunda, not 40K.

But it does mean that Infinity can serve as an introduction to the hobby in general - with a much lower entry cost.

And that is also what a lot of those folks are arguing - get new blood into the hobby with an inexpensive game, there will be time to get your hooks into their souls later for bigger games.

That said - I came in from old style wargaming - Warhammer 40,000 would also be considered a skirmish game, for folks that grew up painting Prussians by the bushel basket. (I miss those days - that bushel basket would cost less than the starter box for 40K....)

I used to use Mordheim to snag people - and it succeeded at that task. A friend uses Necromunda.

My girlfriend was initiated into the cult of the dice by her mum - who played HeroQuest with her very young daughter.

A low entry point makes a big difference.

The Auld Grump

The only argument I can make about Infinity being a not so easy game to get into is that the models have a few small pieces that are hard to put together. Otherwise, I agree with the point of using a lower model and point count game in order to get more people in the hobby much more easy, as you do not have to spend a good amount just to play.

Also, is the OP implying that Infinity is not a game since it does not have 'armies' in the sense of 40k?

 heartserenade wrote:

 Xerics wrote:


I said "small" army.

Then why can't 10 people be a "smaller" army? When does it become an army and when does it become just a bunch of guys? Do you get to decide what people should call what they have?

So total force no it isn't an army

So don't call it an army then. Call it "something closer to a real life army than Infinity" but don't call it an "army". Because it's not. Because you said this...

What i am saying is that people buying Infinity Armies" aren't really buying armies.

...guess what in your own words you didn't really buy an army.

instead of taking snippets you might want to read the whole thing. You are taking small portions of an entire topic and twisting it to suit your needs. your as bad as the tabloids that fill the stands with piles of crap nobody cares to know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seems like there is a massed amount of people posting in this thread that aren't reading the initial post or are twisting it out of context at this point.

Will a MOD please lock this thread I don't think there is anymore that needs to be said here as it is way off topic at this point.

 Xerics wrote:

Seems like there is a massed amount of people posting in this thread that aren't reading the initial post or are twisting it out of context at this point.

Will a MOD please lock this thread I don't think there is anymore that needs to be said here as it is way off topic at this point.

Well, as there was nothing of value to be said in the first place, this thread shouldn't even have been started.

~Tim?

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Seems like there is a massed amount of people posting in this thread that aren't reading the initial post or are twisting it out of context at this point.

Will a MOD please lock this thread I don't think there is anymore that needs to be said here as it is way off topic at this point.

Well, as there was nothing of value to be said in the first place, this thread shouldn't even have been started.

~Tim?

If you aren't going to post something relevant please don't post. Threads already off rails to begin with due to posts like this.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
40K is a skirmish game. The rules do not scale well up to large numbers of figures. Simply moving that many models is too time consuming and the UGOIGO turn sequence becomes more and more unbalanced the larger armies get.

+1.

40k is a game where you have no chain of command or similar system, move each and every soldier, take into account their equipment, and remove each casualty INDIVIDUALLY. It clearly implies that 1 mini = 1 soldier. So, it's basically a platoon-level game, with a Lieutenant, maybe a Captain as "general".
Necromunda could almost have been an addon to 2nd ed 40k instead of a standalone game.

40k is definitely a "big Necromunda", NOT a "small Epic".

 Xerics wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Seems like there is a massed amount of people posting in this thread that aren't reading the initial post or are twisting it out of context at this point.

Will a MOD please lock this thread I don't think there is anymore that needs to be said here as it is way off topic at this point.

Well, as there was nothing of value to be said in the first place, this thread shouldn't even have been started.

~Tim?

If you aren't going to post something relevant please don't post. Threads already off rails to begin with due to posts like this.

The thread itself was never about anything relevant. It was you attempting to troll people who play Infinity by stating what they're buying aren't 'armies'.

Even though, as stated multiple times, neither are the 40k 'armies' you're buying, by your own definition of the term using model count comparisons to real world armies.

So you started the thread to troll people for doing something you do yourself - buy small groups of models and call them an army.

This is a non-thread, and the only reason you're getting replies is it's fun to troll a troll.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Seems like there is a massed amount of people posting in this thread that aren't reading the initial post or are twisting it out of context at this point.

Will a MOD please lock this thread I don't think there is anymore that needs to be said here as it is way off topic at this point.

Well, as there was nothing of value to be said in the first place, this thread shouldn't even have been started.

~Tim?

If you aren't going to post something relevant please don't post. Threads already off rails to begin with due to posts like this.

The thread itself was never about anything relevant. It was you attempting to troll people who play Infinity by stating what they're buying aren't 'armies'.

Even though, as stated multiple times, neither are the 40k 'armies' you're buying, by your own definition of the term using model count comparisons to real world armies.

So you started the thread to troll people for doing something you do yourself - buy small groups of models and call them an army.

This is a non-thread, and the only reason you're getting replies is it's fun to troll a troll.

Please re-read the original post. Seeing as how alot of Infinity players were stating that they could buy 6 "armies" without ever giving reference to the size of an Infinity "army". I feel like if they paid a small amount of money for the same number of models then they would have a valid point but since the price per model is literally the same there is nothing for those people to stand on.

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
But the people that are arguing that Infinity is more affordable than Warhammer 40K do have a very basic point - the amount of money that you need to spend, just to play the game as it is intended, is much lower for Infinity.

Sure. And I can buy a bicycle for much less money than a car. Which is great... unless I wanted a car.

Yes, Infinity is more affordable than 40K... but that's because it's a different type of game. For those who enjoy skirmish games, that's fine. But it's still a bit of an odd comparison.

Yep - which is why I would compare it to the late-great Necromunda, not 40K.

But it does mean that Infinity can serve as an introduction to the hobby in general - with a much lower entry cost.

And that is also what a lot of those folks are arguing - get new blood into the hobby with an inexpensive game, there will be time to get your hooks into their souls later for bigger games.

That said - I came in from old style wargaming - Warhammer 40,000 would also be considered a skirmish game, for folks that grew up painting Prussians by the bushel basket. (I miss those days - that bushel basket would cost less than the starter box for 40K....)

I used to use Mordheim to snag people - and it succeeded at that task. A friend uses Necromunda.

My girlfriend was initiated into the cult of the dice by her mum - who played HeroQuest with her very young daughter.

A low entry point makes a big difference.

The Auld Grump

The only argument I can make about Infinity being a not so easy game to get into is that the models have a few small pieces that are hard to put together. Otherwise, I agree with the point of using a lower model and point count game in order to get more people in the hobby much more easy, as you do not have to spend a good amount just to play.

Also, is the OP implying that Infinity is not a game since it does not have 'armies' in the sense of 40k?

Mmmm.. okay, yeah. I can see that.

I didn't have that problem, but I can see it.

Infinity could really use some plastic models....

*EDIT* Or resin, for that matter.

The Auld Grump

 Xerics wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Seems like there is a massed amount of people posting in this thread that aren't reading the initial post or are twisting it out of context at this point.

Will a MOD please lock this thread I don't think there is anymore that needs to be said here as it is way off topic at this point.

Well, as there was nothing of value to be said in the first place, this thread shouldn't even have been started.

~Tim?

If you aren't going to post something relevant please don't post. Threads already off rails to begin with due to posts like this.

The thread itself was never about anything relevant. It was you attempting to troll people who play Infinity by stating what they're buying aren't 'armies'.

Even though, as stated multiple times, neither are the 40k 'armies' you're buying, by your own definition of the term using model count comparisons to real world armies.

So you started the thread to troll people for doing something you do yourself - buy small groups of models and call them an army.

This is a non-thread, and the only reason you're getting replies is it's fun to troll a troll.

Please re-read the original post. Seeing as how alot of Infinity players were stating that they could buy 6 "armies" without ever giving reference to the size of an Infinity "army". I feel like if they paid a small amount of money for the same number of models then they would have a valid point but since the price per model is literally the same there is nothing for those people to stand on.

You are, again, applying your own incorrect idea of what consitutes a tabletop army, and attempting to troll others for not thinking the same way.

Army, regarding tabletop wargames, is a very loose description. Outside of small scale historicals or even smaller scale sci fi, nothing actually has the numbers to be called an army. But we do it anyway.

Price per model means nothing. A standard 'army' in Infinity is about 10 models. A standard 'army' in 40k is about 50 models. A standard 'army' in Warmachine (from what I've seen in my FLGS, I don't actually play it) is about 30 models. None of them have enough models to aptly fit the description of 'army'.

If someone says they can buy 6 Infinity 'armies' for the price of 1 40k 'army', they're not incorrect. They're buying 6 standard sized armies for Infinity compared to one standard sized army for 40k. They're getting about the same amount of models, but 6 times the variety. And again, 'army', as a loose descriptor in tabletop wargaming, is fine regardless of the game.

This thread is irrelevant. You simply applied your own false logic to the idea of what constitutes an army in Infinity without doing any research, then decided to make a thread attempting to troll people.

But don't you get it? A 40k "army" is not an "army" as well, as I and Loki have pointed out. Soooo.... why is using the word army misleading?

instead of taking snippets you might want to read the whole thing. You are taking small portions of an entire topic and twisting it to suit your needs. your as bad as the tabloids that fill the stands with piles of crap nobody cares to know.

Oh trust me, I've read the whole thing. I don't think I'm misinterpreting you. It's not my fault if, by your logic, you're contradicting youself.

SO if we follow your logic:

Deathwing and Draigowing players shouldn't call their army lists "armies". People who play in 500 points shouldn't call their army lists "armies" ONLY PEOPLE WITH 500+ MODELS HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL THEIR ARMIES ARMIES. Bcause they're the size of a small army, yo.

Isn't that what you're saying? Model count should represent an army, and Infinity doesn't satisfy that model count (which means all those examples mentioned above fits in that category as well) therefore people shouldn't call it an "army". No one is misinterpreting when you said this:

Lol i don't actually buy from GW. I buy old modle sfrom e-bay. What i am saying is that people buying Infinity Armies" aren't really buying armies. What they should be saying when they rage quit 40K is that they are going to sell off their warhammer armies for multiple squads of Infinity as thats the level it is played on. Saying you are buying 6 Infinity "Armies" is a huge exaggeration when its only 5-6 models in the starter and usually not more then 10 per side which is a squad.

 Xerics wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Seems like there is a massed amount of people posting in this thread that aren't reading the initial post or are twisting it out of context at this point.

Will a MOD please lock this thread I don't think there is anymore that needs to be said here as it is way off topic at this point.

Well, as there was nothing of value to be said in the first place, this thread shouldn't even have been started.

~Tim?

If you aren't going to post something relevant please don't post. Threads already off rails to begin with due to posts like this.

The thread itself was never about anything relevant. It was you attempting to troll people who play Infinity by stating what they're buying aren't 'armies'.

Even though, as stated multiple times, neither are the 40k 'armies' you're buying, by your own definition of the term using model count comparisons to real world armies.

So you started the thread to troll people for doing something you do yourself - buy small groups of models and call them an army.

This is a non-thread, and the only reason you're getting replies is it's fun to troll a troll.

Please re-read the original post. Seeing as how alot of Infinity players were stating that they could buy 6 "armies" without ever giving reference to the size of an Infinity "army". I feel like if they paid a small amount of money for the same number of models then they would have a valid point but since the price per model is literally the same there is nothing for those people to stand on.

Or maybe, just maybe, you are being picky about the words when it is in your favor and then hand waving things when the argument turns against you.

So, to define terms - 'Army' means the force used to play a game.

In Infinity an 'Army' can be a dozen figures.

In Warhammer 40K an 'Army' can be eight dozen figures.

Infinity assumes that the players will each have about a dozen figures for their 'Army'. And that those dozen figures are all that they will need.

Warhammer 40K assumes that the players will have about two dozen figures for their 'Army' - to start with, and that each player will want to expand that 'Army'.

Happier, now that terms have been defined?

The force or 'Army' that each player needs to play the game, beyond a starting level, costs a great deal more for 40K than it does for Infinity - simply because a player of Infinity will never need to expand his or her force beyond a certain point.

A single unit in Warhammer 40K costs as much as the entire force in Infinity.

It is fair to say that you did not like what you saw of Infinity - you are allowed to dislike the game.

What people are objecting to is that your argument is not about what you like or do not like, it is the way that you are claiming that it is not a less expensive game - when, objectively and demonstrably, it is indeed less expensive.

If you were to claim that each model in Infinity is not inherently less expensive than in WH40K.... a starter pack of Infinity miniatures, typically six miniatures, runs about the same price as a unit of ten space marines - but unlike that unit of space marines the Infinity starter can be used to play a game as the game is intended to be played.

So, the 40K player would need to buy at least one more box of space marines, and a command unit - which would also run about $40.

A similar argument can be made for WARMACHINE or Hordes.

The scale of the game is different, but the price per model is roughly similar.

Flames of War on the other hand.....

The Auld grump - who enjoys Over the Top, but trying to find folks that want to play a WWI game....

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


<snip>
Infinity could really use some plastic models....

*EDIT* Or resin, for that matter.

The Auld Grump

Won't happen. CB is quite set against plastic because that would mean outsourcing to China, and that they would have to fire a bunch of people in Spain to afford it. They have emphatically stated that they won't do this. I can respect this position too. Resin? Ah, there is an interesting subject. They like working with the metal because they have complete control over everything. Now, if they could get a resin that allows them to do the same things that they can do with the metal, but at a lower cost...

Size doesn't matter, baby. It's the motion of the ocean that causes the commotion.

CB sticks with metal for miniatures, because it gives the most possible detail and casting options, and the highest level of manufacturable quality.

Seriously, Infinity Miniatures have the least flash and mould lines of any I've ever seen, and I've owned, built and painted a lot of GW, PP, Wyrd, Spartan, Dark Age, Heavy Gear, Infinity, Reaper, and other minis.

I cannot imagine them ever using Resin, or god forbid, Plastic to reproduce the real detail they have on those models. The engineering cost in terms of sculpt flexibility and loss of quality would be catastrophic.

Oh, I won't argue about the quality of the miniatures - they are indeed quite good, and, as I have mentioned, I like them much better than the GW miniatures. (I prefer a 'true' scale to a 'heroic' scale.)

But plastic/resin is a lot easier to play around with, for modding. (My favorite plastic GW miniatures are from the period where arms, legs, torsos, and heads were all separate pieces, and could be mixed and matched at whim. I hate their current mono-pose models.)

The Auld Grump

 Xerics wrote:
I just saw what Infinity was today at my FLGS and realized what everyone says when they can buy 6 armies for the price of their one warhammer 40k army.

The size of an army in Infinity is about the same amount of models as a kill team game of 40k... Also there are no big models. They are all little people (or at least that I saw). Needless to say I wasn't impressed and anyone who says "I can but 6 infinity armies for the same price" well of course you can because the games are kill team sized.

Oh man....


This is how you started the conversation, now you backpeddled yourself into a corner with that shoe hanging out of your mouth?


Lets roll this back...

"I just saw infinity today for the first time, it really was quite different then what I expected to see, how on earth do you all handle it with all of those choices?"