Any other veteran players actually pumped for this edition?... I am.

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**Wayniac**

I actually plan to take a look at the rules (FLGS has a copy of the book

) so I can make an informed decision, but moreso what sets me off besides the cost is that it entirely relies on having like-minded players. If you play in an area where everyone is more casual and laid-back and enjoys narrative games (I'd love to play a real 40k campaign) you're fine, but if you play in a meta where people still take 40k competitively and treat it as serious business, then it wouldn't matter if they gave away models for free if the game isn't enjoyable.

40k relies way too much IMO on the social dynamic and your particular meta; now all games have some social aspect but 40k can be great with the right opponent, and frustrating garbage with the wrong opponent, because there's such a huge gap between those two people and the kind of game they bring to the table. A fluffy Ork army might be a joy to fight against, some Heldrake+Riptide+Daemons abomination a lot less so. No other game has such a gross imbalance between players. Unbound is cool for those of us who want to field things that are fluffy but we can't do, like an all-Terminator non-Deathwing army, or Kult of Speed or things like that, but in the same breath Unbound allows TFG to build grossly broken armies that are technically legal. All it takes is for one TFG to ruin a meta and/or brand all Unbound players as jerks.

**Brometheus**

That's a good write-up, Wayne.. I really like your view on the game as it stands now.

**Bonde**

I pretty much agree with Wayne. Of course there are balance issues with other games, but they actually try to solve the issues as they update their games, and they update the rules mainly with this in mind.
What GW does is just exchange one kind of utterly broken for another. When compared to consistent and well written rules design, it pretty much seems like they make things up as they go along. Power levels are all over the place, and what is overpowered one day can be worthless the next.

40K requires so much pre game planning that even if you know the person you are going to play in advance, it still takes a lot of time. You have have two very like minded players, otherwise 40k simply does not work as a game.

**Wayniac**

It kind of seems to me that they write the game on the assumption that everyone plays in the UK style "gaming club" where a lot of the possible issues can be alleviated. In fact, I'd wager since the GW staff seem to have that sort of club themselves, they are incapable of seeing any issues that arise with pick-up games to say nothing of competitive games (the last competitive person they had on the staff was I believe Alessio) which is where the issues arise. After all, if you play with a group of friends, nobody is going to be a jerk and bring some steamrolling list to crush everyone, but if you play against whoever turns up to the game store on miniatures night then you're at the mercy of whomever, and whatever they show up with so you might get stuck with TFG or you might not.

**Crablezworth**

WayneTheGame wrote:
Unbound allows TFG to build grossly broken armies that are technically legal. All it takes is for one TFG to ruin a meta and/or brand all Unbound players as jerks.

Battle Forged aren't much better sadly.

**Wayniac**

Crablezworth wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
Unbound allows TFG to build grossly broken armies that are technically legal. All it takes is for one TFG to ruin a meta and/or brand all Unbound players as jerks.

Battle Forged aren't much better sadly.

Very true; I can't speak to experience as I haven't played 40k in a very long time, but my comment was more with the idea that Unbound could be great for things like an all-Termie army without the restrictions of Deathwing, which you can't (to my knowledge?) do with Battle Forged since you still have to follow some semblance of the FoC.

**Ravenous D**

Crablezworth wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
Unbound allows TFG to build grossly broken armies that are technically legal. All it takes is for one TFG to ruin a meta and/or brand all Unbound players as jerks.

Battle Forged aren't much better sadly.

Especially with the ability to take as many primary detachments as you want in any game.

**Kavish**

Klerych wrote:
I'm kinda baffled by one thing..

People keep talking about how GW's sales drop and other games' get higher.. isn't that kind of... obvious? I mean think about it - the community is limited, there isn't an exponential wargamer influx similar to the one from LotR times so.. If some games get popular doesn't it mean that other games' popularity has to drop? Isn't it obvious that 40k and WFB will have to share their playerbase with other games?

Now don't get me wrong, sports, I ain't saying that GW is doing jolly good lately nor that they're not at fault here(although not entirely), but remember that we live in an age of bajillions of small systems erupting from every hole like orks from crashed Space Hulk. It's only natural that if there are more options the community will spread itself all over them as some of those games particularly hit some people's soft spots. And this will obviously take the customers away from some systems so.. the more systems people turn to, the less popular will be the old ones and the big 'uns will feel it the most as it's their playerbases that they have to share.

See, as for various systems.. it's all matter of preferences. Not everyone likes the gameplay of Infinity, not everyone enjoys the WarmaHordes' designs, not everyone is into skirmish dogfighting that X-Wing provides, not everyone likes to play spaceship battles presented in Firestorm Armada, not everyone... and so on, and so on. Usually it's not that simply a matter of "oh, it's a better system, just move over to it!". Some people still like the feel of 40k, the way it plays, the way the miniatures look or the fluff. Same goes for WFB and others.

While somewhat unhappy with the prices and the time 7th was released, people here are going to pick it up and most of the rules changes are deemed rather fine in our local community. People had fun in 6th given the fact that we're all mature people who don't argue over slowed gak like idiots and if there are any disputes they're often solved by reasonable discussion and if it can't be, then it's a rule of thumb to disallow it to the one that tries to use it to not make anyone think that he's exploiting the ambiguous situation. Again - I know not everyone has the luxury of having to deal with reasonable grown-ups, but frankly I couldn't care less - I act mature and I expect the same of a fellow player that wants to share the time and fun with me. If all he can do is copy-pasting the most ridiculously broken netlists and refuses to act reasonable when politely notified about his exploitative approach at rules then he's not a person I ever want to talk to, let alone spend my free time playing with. If there's any problem on player level we can always ask the FLGS staff to resolve it. It might be their interpretation, but if they run the place, their word is almost as good as GW's if we want to play there.

Here here.

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Brometheus wrote:
Now the game in my area seems to be "I have 20 Warp Charge at 1500pts, look at all the empty bases I can summon". Unpainted armies. Minimum troops to get max psykers. Those 5 chaos space marines really forge the narrative. Yawn.

HOWEVER, I am not one to impose restrictions on people. It is in the rules, and if you can do it, you should not be stopped.

Nothing will change in 7th edition for me. People already pick and choose opponents, and the people at the store who bring the dumb lists will find themselves sitting games out and watching until they make adjustments. It's been happening for years, and the right to refuse will never go away. I say game on with this edition, and I have a very happy Ahriman.

I like 7th.

Agreed.

**MWHistorian**

Here's some of my Infinity dudemen I got when I sold my Imperial Fist army.
(Because evidently I need proof because some people can't fathom that someone could ever leave the Hhhhhobby, like its some kind of Lovecraftian cult.)

**Kyutaru**

When they release something as badass looking as a Chaos Space Marine, let me know.

**Musashi363**

Someone still uses chaos space marines in their army lists?? Wow.

**MWHistorian**

Kyutaru wrote:
When they release something as badass looking as a Chaos Space Marine, let me know.

Seeing as how that's a completely subjective thing, that's impossible for me to do because I don't know what you like. I think there are things that are cooler, but you might not think that. Are there things covered in spikes and skulls? No.
It's a completely different asthetic.
For example, I think this:

Is cooler than this.

Am I right? Doesn't matter because it's purely subjective.

But what I can tell you is that the Infinity TAG is actually useful on the tabletop.

**Tanakosyke22**

MWHistorian wrote:
Kyutaru wrote:
When they release something as badass looking as a Chaos Space Marine, let me know.

Seeing as how that's a completely subjective thing, that's impossible for me to do because I don't know what you like. I think there are things that are cooler, but you might not think that. Are there things covered in spikes and skulls? No.
It's a completely different asthetic.
For example, I think this:

Is cooler than this.

Am I right? Doesn't matter because it's purely subjective.

But what I can tell you is that the Infinity TAG is actually useful on the tabletop.

Although I do agree with you on that MWHistorian, I'd like to point out that TAGs do eat up on a lot of your points, hence can hurt you on your order pool. Still, they are useful for armored support (even funnier if you run a cutter in PanO, and watch your opponents face in awe when he figures out there is such a thing as a TOed TAG if he is new).

As for 7th edition, I can see just playing a game with your friends and just drinking a beer and having fun, which 40k seems to try to market itself as. However, I feel I can do that for other games with a much lower cost and half the frustration of trying to find the time to meet up, set up the pre-rules of the game, and have a game that may or may not be that enjoyable. Hence why I went to some of GW's specialist games, Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity and branched out to try other games.

**Melissia**

A better question would be what have they produced that ISN'T more badass than a CSM? I mean, aside from catgirl nurse anyway

**Kavish**

Infinity has broken things in it too. Like that invisibility armour (can't remember what it's called) coupled with a powerful weapon. You know, the one where you take a photo of where they are hiding without your opponent looking.

It just comes down to a gentlemen's agreement not to use OP stuff. They do it in video games too (anyone remember no Akuma in Street fighter?).

**Tanakosyke22**

Kavish wrote:
Infinity has broken things in it too. Like that invisibility armour (can't remember what it's called) coupled with a powerful weapon. You know, the one where you take a photo of where they are hiding without your opponent looking.

It just comes down to a gentlemen's agreement not to use OP stuff. They do it in video games too (anyone remember no Akuma in Street fighter?).

Are you talking about TO camo? It is not that OP when the model pops out of camo to make a surprise shot on their turn, and has to spend a whole order AND have to be out of line of sight of enemy models in order to get back into camo. Also, camo can be easily taken care of with Flamethrowers and lighting the model on fire.

A gentlemen's agreement can occur in any game, but pretty much is much less of an occurence in many game systems out of GW since the companies attempt to try and take care of the issue where as GW is still kind of behind the times on this.

**Zagman**

I'm actually looking forward to this edition.

Here are my views in a couple of big contenders.

I don't feel Daemon Factory is going to be that big of an issue.

Invisibility is broken, but luckily it still has points of failure. Seriously bad call. Belekor is the worst offender.

Eldar are still going to dominate, especially with Wave Serpents being Objective Secured.

2++ Rerollable is still a thing, but I feel like it has more points of failure with the new Osychic phase, that Sanctic has a counter, and D Weapons actually have a place in countering.

I'm not a fan of Unbound, but feel Objective Secured Scoring will be strong enough to stop Unbound from being a tournament ore sense and can be avoided casually.

FMCs getting toned down is great.

The reduction in Battle Brothers is great.

Imperium getting Battle Brothers helps them against the Xenos.

No half Max Reserves.

Overall I feel this edition has potential, but will take some clearing up and FAQing for tournament play.

**Melissia**

Don't two Objective Secured units, one from you and one from the opponent, result in contested rather than a win?

That might be one way to deal with the wave serpent thing.

**welshhoppo**

Played my first game of 7th tonight.

I like it, I think it is a great improvement over the previous edition.

**Zagman**

Melissia wrote:
Don't two Objective Secured units, one from you and one from the opponent, result in contested rather than a win?

That might be one way to deal with the wave serpent thing.

Yes it does, but Wave Seroents are notoriously difficult to destroy while it will be tough to keep your own Objective Secured units alive.

It may be better than 6th as Jinking forces Snap Shots.

**jonolikespie**

Kavish wrote:
Infinity has broken things in it too. Like that invisibility armour (can't remember what it's called) coupled with a powerful weapon. You know, the one where you take a photo of where they are hiding without your opponent looking.

It just comes down to a gentlemen's agreement not to use OP stuff. They do it in video games too (anyone remember no Akuma in Street fighter?).

Except infinity doesn't need a gentlemens agreement because that invisibility thing isn't OP. In fact unless you're new and haven't encountered a particular strategy before (drop troops seemed amazing the first time they where used against me) nothing is OP.

**Lobokai**

jonolikespie wrote:
Kavish wrote:
Infinity has broken things in it too. Like that invisibility armour (can't remember what it's called) coupled with a powerful weapon. You know, the one where you take a photo of where they are hiding without your opponent looking.

It just comes down to a gentlemen's agreement not to use OP stuff. They do it in video games too (anyone remember no Akuma in Street fighter?).

Except infinity doesn't need a gentlemens agreement because that invisibility thing isn't OP. In fact unless you're new and haven't encountered a particular strategy before (drop troops seemed amazing the first time they where used against me) nothing is OP.

Yeah, that's just like 40k then... considering the top 2 finishers in the last 2 major events were Daemons (not screamer star), CSM, Eldar, SM... yeah there are easier lists to get above average wins, but heck, Reecius just won a tourney with Orks.

**jonolikespie**

But if someone shows up to a pick up game/club night with the hardest helldrake/riptide/wave serpent/demon factory spam list they could make how many people will want to play that and how many would ask them to alter the list?

**Brometheus**

I've seen people accept games against players who bring those kinds of lists and neither player communicates beforehand except to ask how many points the game will be. Once that massive wave serpent list or huge riptide list is on the side of the table, I've noticed that (some) people would rather grind through it unhappily and then be butthurt about it after they lose, rather than have the guts to say "no, I'm not playing that."

**Lobokai**

jonolikespie wrote:
But if someone shows up to a pick up game/club night with the hardest helldrake/riptide/wave serpent/demon factory spam list they could make how many people will want to play that and how many would ask them to alter the list?

I think you'd be surprised how often the mythical "tournament list" gets itself broken wide open by some fluffy list. Tournament lists can struggle against meta busters (lists that would never survive half the tournament games, but are complete death traps for the other half). At the end of 6th I've seen psycannon GK dreads with henchmen tear through a mean wave-serpent list, and a fluffy SW MSU/dread drop pod list dance on the grave of a TauDar list. I know that's not the WAAC vs fluffy narrative that we like to weave, but like most internet conventional wisdom, it's wrong more than it's right.

Heck, I usually bring three lists, let my opponent pick, spot them 500 points and then enjoy the challenge. I can't even remember the last time I was tabled and I like to think my opponents had fun too.

**MWHistorian**

Also, those kind of lists sometimes go against new players that don't know any better. I saw a Necron Air list go against a kid in his first game. It was decided by the end of turn two. I never saw the kid in the store again.

**Wayniac**

MWHistorian wrote:
Also, those kind of lists sometimes go against new players that don't know any better. I saw a Necron Air list go against a kid in his first game. It was decided by the end of turn two. I never saw the kid in the store again.

It takes a special kind of scumbag to pull a stunt like that. I never understood why even the WAAC types think that tabling somebody, especially a newbie, is going to benefit anyone. I get that competitive players exist, but the time to tweak competitive lists for a tournament is in the month or two beforehand and against experienced players; not every game is some ultra competitive "Let me just tweak my list for Adepticon" situation. Like there's a guy at one of the FLGS that I go to where, and I hate to stereotype, just by looking at I figured was one of "those" players. Turns out I was right, and when I was thinking of playing 40k two different people said that he's the powergamer/min-maxer type, and later I talked to someone who played him and experienced the same thing; they brought an extremely fluffy list and the guy spent like 20 minutes trying to figure out how to modify his tournament list for a game, and it was a one-sided and unfun game anyways. Said person left the store in disgust and hasn't been back since.

**Lobokai**

@Wayne, not directed at you at all, but in reference to that WAAC gamer you mentione, why do people let that happen? Where are the veteran players? Where's store personnel who care about the experience someone has at their store? I run one of the larger "garage clubs" in the area (20 members if everyone ever showed up on the same day), and there's two good sized FLGSs that members of our club get PUGs at too.

Between the three, that just isn't allowed. I know that we play permade lists on 40k night. If someone brings a wicked looking list we pair them with someone looking for that game. Newbs get double points and get to go against someone willing to lose a game to teach. Rule disputes are solved before they escalate with rule books out. 40k players need to take some ownership of their community. It's kinda embarrassing.

**Eldarain**

Lobukia wrote:
@Wayne, not directed at you at all, but in reference to that WAAC gamer you mentione, why do people let that happen? Where are the veteran players? Where's store personnel who care about the experience someone has at their store? I run one of the larger "garage clubs" in the area (20 members if everyone ever showed up on the same day), and there's two good sized FLGSs that members of our club get PUGs at too.

Between the three, that just isn't allowed. I know that we play permade lists on 40k night. If someone brings a wicked looking list we pair them with someone looking for that game. Newbs get double points and get to go against someone willing to lose a game to teach. Rule disputes are solved before they escalate with rule books out. 40k players need to take some ownership of their community. It's kinda embarrassing.

While I still maintain that it is sad that such measures are required, your group should be commended for their approach to community building.

**Kavish**

Lobukia wrote:
@Wayne, not directed at you at all, but in reference to that WAAC gamer you mentione, why do people let that happen? Where are the veteran players? Where's store personnel who care about the experience someone has at their store? I run one of the larger "garage clubs" in the area (20 members if everyone ever showed up on the same day), and there's two good sized FLGSs that members of our club get PUGs at too.

Between the three, that just isn't allowed. I know that we play permade lists on 40k night. If someone brings a wicked looking list we pair them with someone looking for that game. Newbs get double points and get to go against someone willing to lose a game to teach. Rule disputes are solved before they escalate with rule books out. 40k players need to take some ownership of their community. It's kinda embarrassing.

Exalted. I know I'm going to get e-hate for this but... Get a grip people! You should be ashamed of yourselves! I got the rulebook yesterday, and it's fantastic! If you can't control the urge to build OP lists, or haven't got the guts to tell people their list isn't in the spirit of the game, then it's time to get that sorted!

"But it rapes the fluff!" I hear you cry. No it doesn't. Sure, players can rape the fluff if they want to bring Eldar summoning daemons or something, but they don't have to. I'd tell them how ridiculous it is and tell them I don't want to play against such lists.

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40k has never been perfectly balanced and never will. Games rarely are. One thing I noticed about warmachine is most factions are functionally the same. They just look different. I don't find that interesting.

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If you want a perfectly balanced game that is all skill, then buy a chessboard and replace the pieces with 40k models.