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I'm off to pick up my copy of 7th in about 4 hours. The suspense is killing me though. Been planning a new nid army since rumours are that 7th will improve combat a little. But I need to know about smash.

The rumour was that it no longer halves your attacks, it is instead a single attack. So now I need to know whether to start working crushing claw carnifix in or not....

Any help?

Yes, that is indeed the new rule for making Smash attacks, making every Monstrous Creature that doesn't have Armour or really high Strength completely terrible against even a moderately tough vehicle.

Oh good. I'm guessing they didn't sell enough carnifix models....

No it's because nobody in their right mind was buying dreadies or hellbrutes omitting the guys converting to killa kanz

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Oh good. I'm guessing they didn't sell enough carnifix models....

Bloodthirsters went from mediocre to terrible, shut it and take your flying hive tyrants that you clearly didn't take for the dual devourers.

I had one kitted with dual devs. One kitted with lash whip and bonesword. I don't mind. Just means a list re shuffle. Looks like my Khorne daemons will be getting shelved though.

ionusx wrote:No it's because nobody in their right mind was buying dreadies or hellbrutes omitting the guys converting to killa kanz

Yes, people weren't buying overpriced, fragile walkers because of the Smash rule, nothing to with their price tag or how easily they can be shot off the table.

Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Oh good. I'm guessing they didn't sell enough carnifix models....

Bloodthirsters went from mediocre to terrible, shut it and take your flying hive tyrants that you clearly didn't take for the dual devourers.

Poor Daemons with their Strength 8 Lords of Change and Iron Arm'd Daemon Princes.

I get, it Khorne got badly nerfed, and that makes you said, but that's only one of the 4 factions available, Tyranids only have a single MC that isn't horribly nerfed by the change to Smash.

Yep. Already re-writting the list as I had nothing that would reliably open up an iron clad or better now. Including land raiders and monoliths.

Luckily the MC's that can take crushing claws are all synapse creatures....... Oh wait....

DOW2 let Hive Tyrants take crushing claws.

That should be a thing in the game.

Trygons should also be stronger.

Well, you can pay a ridiculous amount of points for the Ymgarl Factor, Reaper of Obliterax and Adrenal Glands to get Strength 9 on the charge.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Well, you can pay a ridiculous amount of points for the Ymgarl Factor, Reaper of Obliterax and Adrenal Glands to get Strength 9 on the charge.

Haha. That is a crazy amount of points though. I'm wondering if unbound or battlefogrged us the way to go now. I was building battle forged lists, but something appeals to me - having 5 separate zoanthropes floating around the board....

You can do that with Battle-forged as well, all you need is 2 HQs and 4 Troops.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Well, you can pay a ridiculous amount of points for the Ymgarl Factor, Reaper of Obliterax and Adrenal Glands to get Strength 9 on the charge.

Even if you throw toxin sacs and regeneration onto that, it'd still be a worse beatstick than Ironfather Smashfether.

Remember when a Hive Tyrant was one of the scariest things in CC?

I'd like those days to come back.

Just picked my new rules pack up. What a glorious set of books. Am I reading it right though? It seems a hive tyrant can shoot witchfire powers in the psychic phases AND then fire his two weapons in the shooting phase!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Just picked my new rules pack up. What a glorious set of books. Am I reading it right though? It seems a hive tyrant can shoot witchfire powers in the psychic phases AND then fire his two weapons in the shooting phase!

I actually hope this is true because at present witchfire powers are the absolute worst things you can get. This would give us a reason to use them and maybe even take those equally useless psyker gun upgrades.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Just picked my new rules pack up. What a glorious set of books. Am I reading it right though? It seems a hive tyrant can shoot witchfire powers in the psychic phases AND then fire his two weapons in the shooting phase!

I actually hope this is true because at present witchfire powers are the absolute worst things you can get. This would give us a reason to use them and maybe even take those equally useless psyker gun upgrades.

It's true. You can fire as many witchfires as you have, each at a different unit if you want, and it does not affect your ability to shoot in the following shooting phase.

What about charging?

 Arbiter wrote:
What about charging?

If you change Flight Mode, you can't charge in the same turn.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Arbiter wrote:
What about charging?

If you change Flight Mode, you can't charge in the same turn.

He's asking if charging lets you get another smash attack, or if it's like a lascutter which prevents you from ever getting more than one attack no matter what.

Smash lets you use a single attack instead of what you would normally get. So only one, regardless of charging or whatever.

Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Oh good. I'm guessing they didn't sell enough carnifix models....

Bloodthirsters went from mediocre to terrible, shut it and take your flying hive tyrants that you clearly didn't take for the dual devourers.

Skarbrand at least has innate Fleshbane/Armourbane. But walking 6" a turn... lol.

Kain wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Arbiter wrote:
What about charging?

If you change Flight Mode, you can't charge in the same turn.

He's asking if charging lets you get another smash attack, or if it's like a lascutter which prevents you from ever getting more than one attack no matter what.

I'd bet on the second one. If it's not well written, this will bring a discussion akin to the Screamer Armourbane attack

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I'm off to pick up my copy of 7th in about 4 hours. The suspense is killing me though. Been planning a new nid army since rumours are that 7th will improve combat a little. But I need to know about smash.

The rumour was that it no longer halves your attacks, it is instead a single attack. So now I need to know whether to start working crushing claw carnifix in or not....

Any help?

The choice of the double str attack is only one attack now. Otherwise all CC attacks are AP2 at STR. Remember, the Smash special rule covers more than just the double strength special attack.

It does. I've got the new book in front of me. Psychic witchfire is now epically good. You can shoot multiple different witchfire at multiple different units and the shoot in the shooting phase at another entirely different unit! Awesome. Flyrants still rule. Combat Flyrants - not so much!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I'm off to pick up my copy of 7th in about 4 hours. The suspense is killing me though. Been planning a new nid army since rumours are that 7th will improve combat a little. But I need to know about smash.

The rumour was that it no longer halves your attacks, it is instead a single attack. So now I need to know whether to start working crushing claw carnifix in or not....

Any help?

It's only a concern against a few Walkers and Land Raider. Everything else has rear armor AV10-11. A single S10 smash attack is nearly as good at killing AV14 as a melta bomb so you're hardly weak.

As predicted, here come GW's galloping white knights!

 minigun762 wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I'm off to pick up my copy of 7th in about 4 hours. The suspense is killing me though. Been planning a new nid army since rumours are that 7th will improve combat a little. But I need to know about smash.

The rumour was that it no longer halves your attacks, it is instead a single attack. So now I need to know whether to start working crushing claw carnifix in or not....

Any help?

It's only a concern against a few Walkers and Land Raider. Everything else has rear armor AV10-11. A single S10 smash attack is nearly as good at killing AV14 as a melta bomb so you're hardly weak.

I'm not sure you understand the difference between a single throw away space marine sergeant with a meltabomb and a trygon who needs to not get hopelessly tarpitted by an ironclad dreadnought of less cost than itself.

But the Trygon needs a serious buff anyway, as it was designed before GW's idiotic arseholes in it's design team thought that something with a Wraithknight's statline was ever okay to price in at the points you pay when a Heirodule pays twice as much for it.

But we are talking about GW here, in all of it's subsapient, keyboard slapping glory. I'm sure they will "fix" the Trygon like they "fixed" the Pyrovore and then give the lazy justification of "Hurrr errmmm we iz forging da narrative derrr...raise da prices....uhhhh...me cant count...guhhhh."

 Kain wrote:

I'm not sure you understand the difference between a single throw away space marine sergeant with a meltabomb and a trygon who needs to not get hopelessly tarpitted by an ironclad dreadnought of less cost than itself.

But the Trygon needs a serious buff anyway, as it was designed before GW's idiotic arseholes in it's design team thought that something with a Wraithknight's statline was ever okay to price in at the points you pay when a Heirodule pays twice as much for it.

I agree that it's a different situation, but to be far that Ironclad isn't going to charge anything unless you let it. Unless I remember incorrectly, the Trygon is far faster and a Flyrant will have little problems stripping the Ironclad of hull points from behind.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the changes to Smash are anything but a disadvantage.
What I am saying is that the army can still work with the new rules.

If you don't think so, then I'd invite you to retire the army and play something else you enjoy until the rules change again and you are happier with them. In the end, each of us just wants to play with our little plastic space dudes and space monsters to be happy.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

I'm not sure you understand the difference between a single throw away space marine sergeant with a meltabomb and a trygon who needs to not get hopelessly tarpitted by an ironclad dreadnought of less cost than itself.

But the Trygon needs a serious buff anyway, as it was designed before GW's idiotic arseholes in it's design team thought that something with a Wraithknight's statline was ever okay to price in at the points you pay when a Heirodule pays twice as much for it.

I agree that it's a different situation, but to be far that Ironclad isn't going to charge anything unless you let it. Unless I remember incorrectly, the Trygon is far faster and a Flyrant will have little problems stripping the Ironclad of hull points from behind.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the changes to Smash are anything but a disadvantage.
What I am saying is that the army can still work with the new rules.

If you don't think so, then I'd invite you to retire the army and play something else you enjoy until the rules change again and you are happier with them. In the end, each of us just wants to play with our little plastic space dudes and space monsters to be happy.

The Trygon only has fleet.

No jump, no beast movement, no jetpack, just fleet.

It's hardly faster.

And I've already decided to give up on GW's toilet paper it's calling a ruleset and use one designed by my game group and friends over the past few years that is meant to be both truer to the setting and more fun and fair for every army.

Rather than the farce of a "Herpderp forge da narrative" pile that GW in it's utter lack of wisdom slapped together that results in absurdities like Khornes armies being absurdly terrible in battle, nearly any competetive Tyranid build being 90% shooting with middling monstrous creatures when the army was always intended to be very short range and assault oriented and had big stompy monsters before Pacific Rim 40k made it cool, Space Marine Ironclad dreadnoughts being far more effective at tarpitting a Bloodthirster than fighting half-naked gladitrices with haywire grenades who were meant to be MEQ slayers, and you wanting to be only better than average in assault because if you're too good you now stand there picking your nose to get shot up.

GW is not worth your time or money to support until it learns to stop abusing it's playerbase.

It is a spoiled child doing a bad thing, and like any such child, it must be informed that what it is doing is wrong. And to do that it must be punished with financial troubles.

It can either go it's way and die, in which case it fully deserves to and we can only hope that Warhammer is salvaged from it's corpse, or wise up and turn course.

A little bit upset I guess?

On a serious note, I'm actually quite a fan of the new rule book. Shocking I know. It doesn't massively improve combat. But unbound could make it work. The psychic phase is pretty awesome, and although nids don't gain access to the plethora of new powers, they do all gain the primarus for free. And dakka flyrants are now uber dakka flyrants. We can also have more of them. The downside being that combat Flyrants aren't quite as effective.

But honestly, the subtle changes are quite nice I think. They're mostly a step in the right direction even if 'smash' rule changes have hurt.

All the Flyrants in the world aren't stopping a Land Raider from capturing objective.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
All the Flyrants in the world aren't stopping a Land Raider from capturing objective.

If all you do is fly around and try to hurt it with your S6 shots, then yes you are correct.

All the Bolters in the world aren't going to hurt a Wraithlord scoring an objective but that doesn't make Bolters bad or Wraithlords overpowered.