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 Blacksails wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

helotaxi wrote:
According to the new rulebook Pink Horrors are Mastery Level 1 for the simple fact that they are Psykers.

Dafuq??! WHO MADE THESE RULES???

People who don't actually play the game.

Lol. Very true.

The clear winners are armies that can field a lot of psykers which have access to spamming Daemons each turn.

Then by that logic why is he an IC at all? Why not remove his IC status?

IC joining with MC nerf was to remove buffmander + single riptide. Ovesa is not a normal riptide, generally when there are two rules that normally conflict on the same model they cancel out.

It also kills the fluff of the entire damn unit of the Eight. They are elite characters that roam as a force on their own. Now they cant thanks to your logic of "Ovesa is an MC before he is an IC"

buffmander could join a riptide not because he was an MC , but because riptdie+drones was a unit.

 TheKbob wrote:
Grey Knights (Winners) - Every unit is a psyker, essentially. Great Inquisitors/Librarians. Access to the cheapest ML1 Psyker in the game and can be super scoring, to boot. Add in the benefits they can now reap from battle brothers, and you're going to see a meteoric rise of the Draigowing again.

has already happened. Hell I did it myself with caidians and tabled a deamon player at the bottom of 3 on purge the alien.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

helotaxi wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
On top of that poison has been nerfed.

Again copy-paste from the previous edition. How is that a nerf exactly?

Not exactly. You only get the re-roll to wound from Melee weapons if your base strength is HIGHER than the targets toughness. Before it was equal to, or greater than.

Got it. Small massage, not a huge swing of the nerf bat though.

Also shooting doesn't get the re-roll.

No change AT ALL from 6th. Not a nerf if it didn't change. The only change to the USR is the elimination of "the same or" from the Melee portion of the entry.

If the intent was to get rid of ovesa star, the the fluff and rules behind farsights eight is null. How can a bodyguard and advisorbe either if he ccan't actually kick it w farsight? I think the intent was to prevent dual riptide shenanigans, not ovesa.

Daemon factories = The Best Sniper Unit in the game (A.K.A Nob bikers pre 6ed FAQ)

Its a similiar, totally messed up, totally unbalanced situation that most assuredly will get toned down in one way or another.

What makes it frustrating is that, until the FAQ is released (or months go by.... ) it is very dfficulty to consider all the options (and opponents) in context.

If ANYONE tries to pull it off against you though-even in a turny, you can outright tell him he can't take demonology at all, as the codex states they are limited to specific disciplines and as such barred from demonology. (it even says on the demonology rules "unless otherwise stated"), at least until FAQs sort it out

No reason to stop someone who uses it without abusing it though.

Losers: Orks
+Challenge Wounds spill over
+Tougher Vehicles
+Multi Force Org
-Flamer hits on transported troops
-Assault is still gakky
-No psyker that can use a useful discipline
-No psychic defense, cannot stop spells
-gak allies options
-First homebrew 'fixes' for the game are inevitably "feth Orks, remove multi force org - but retain allies because thats fair and also btw feth orks"
-First new codex of the edition, so won't have any idea how the edition plays when they make it

Explain to me why the orks have no psychic defense and cannot stop spells?

Even my Tau can do that, and they dont even have a worthless psyker option.

And assault spill over helps orks more than it hurts. I am so sick of my warboss with 5-6 attacks 1shotting my challenging opponent and wasting the rest of my wounds.

 BoomWolf wrote:
If ANYONE tries to pull it off against you though-even in a turny, you can outright tell him he can't take demonology at all, as the codex states they are limited to specific disciplines and as such barred from demonology. (it even says on the demonology rules "unless otherwise stated"), at least until FAQs sort it out

No reason to stop someone who uses it without abusing it though.

Selective enforcement of rules aside, the BRB says unless otherwise stated, all armies have access to demonology. Please show me in the Daemon (or any other Codex) where access to daemonology is prohibited.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Explain to me why the orks have no psychic defense and cannot stop spells?

We have one rubbish psyker. To stop spells reliably you need several psykers or psykers that are good. We may get lucky and deny one power, but thats the best we can get - just as in the last edition we could occasionally roll a 6 to DTW. For me that does not constitute a reasonable amount of psyker defense.

And assault spill over helps orks more than it hurts. I am so sick of my warboss with 5-6 attacks 1shotting my challenging opponent and wasting the rest of my wounds.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Explain to me why the orks have no psychic defense and cannot stop spells?

Even my Tau can do that, and they dont even have a worthless psyker option.

And assault spill over helps orks more than it hurts. I am so sick of my warboss with 5-6 attacks 1shotting my challenging opponent and wasting the rest of my wounds.

Because this is 7th edition, the age of Combined Arms Detachments. Clearly they made the rules expecting Orks to take a second detachment from some other Psyker-friendly faction.

Prior to 7th, the game was like Magic the Gathering being played as a mono-color deck. Pure Red, Pure Black, Pure White, etc sometimes with just a splash of allies for flavor.

Now we're getting into true multi-faction army building which may even help with the balance problems of the game. It allows GW to focus on what each faction does best. If you like melee, you pick up Orks. If you like magic, you pick up Daemons. If you like swarms and swarms of things, you grab Tyranids or Imperial Guard. Building an army has become a matter of picking the right combination of detachments to suit your strategy. This is similar to building a Red/Black deck, or a Green/White weenie rush deck, or a five-color-Legends deck.

The options are limitless because we can FORGE A NARRATIVE!

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Preliminary winners:
Eldar, Chaos Daemons

Preliminary losers:
Everybody else.

Why? Because when you can create extra units out of thin air every turn, nothing else really matters.

Funny that it took two pages to get it right.

 undertow wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
If ANYONE tries to pull it off against you though-even in a turny, you can outright tell him he can't take demonology at all, as the codex states they are limited to specific disciplines and as such barred from demonology. (it even says on the demonology rules "unless otherwise stated"), at least until FAQs sort it out

No reason to stop someone who uses it without abusing it though.

Selective enforcement of rules aside, the BRB says unless otherwise stated, all armies have access to demonology. Please show me in the Daemon (or any other Codex) where access to daemonology is prohibited.

Each individual unit profile of a psyker, in the part where it tells you what disciplines it has.

Sure, its being a rules lawyer and an ass, that's why I said to only pull it out against someone who is being an ass to begin with. because the way its written ATM, the fact it tells "psyker X generates from disciplines Y" IS "stating otherwise", at some interpretation.
While obviously not the intended one, umping to abuse odd interactions with older books that have yet to be FAQed to how they are supposed to be to begin with makes you deserve such treatment.

Kyutaru wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Explain to me why the orks have no psychic defense and cannot stop spells?

Even my Tau can do that, and they dont even have a worthless psyker option.

And assault spill over helps orks more than it hurts. I am so sick of my warboss with 5-6 attacks 1shotting my challenging opponent and wasting the rest of my wounds.

Because this is 7th edition, the age of Combined Arms Detachments. Clearly they made the rules expecting Orks to take a second detachment from some other Psyker-friendly faction.

Prior to 7th, the game was like Magic the Gathering being played as a mono-color deck. Pure Red, Pure Black, Pure White, etc sometimes with just a splash of allies for flavor.

Now we're getting into true multi-faction army building which may even help with the balance problems of the game. It allows GW to focus on what each faction does best. If you like melee, you pick up Orks. If you like magic, you pick up Daemons. If you like swarms and swarms of things, you grab Tyranids or Imperial Guard. Building an army has become a matter of picking the right combination of detachments to suit your strategy. This is similar to building a Red/Black deck, or a Green/White weenie rush deck, or a five-color-Legends deck.

The options are limitless because we can FORGE A NARRATIVE!

Until you realize that not everything gets to easily ally

 StarTrotter wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Explain to me why the orks have no psychic defense and cannot stop spells?

Even my Tau can do that, and they dont even have a worthless psyker option.

And assault spill over helps orks more than it hurts. I am so sick of my warboss with 5-6 attacks 1shotting my challenging opponent and wasting the rest of my wounds.

Because this is 7th edition, the age of Combined Arms Detachments. Clearly they made the rules expecting Orks to take a second detachment from some other Psyker-friendly faction.

Prior to 7th, the game was like Magic the Gathering being played as a mono-color deck. Pure Red, Pure Black, Pure White, etc sometimes with just a splash of allies for flavor.

Now we're getting into true multi-faction army building which may even help with the balance problems of the game. It allows GW to focus on what each faction does best. If you like melee, you pick up Orks. If you like magic, you pick up Daemons. If you like swarms and swarms of things, you grab Tyranids or Imperial Guard. Building an army has become a matter of picking the right combination of detachments to suit your strategy. This is similar to building a Red/Black deck, or a Green/White weenie rush deck, or a five-color-Legends deck.

The options are limitless because we can FORGE A NARRATIVE!

Until you realize that not everything gets to easily ally

No, it's pretty easy. Ultramarines will happily ally with Tyranids to fight Dark Eldar (you know, just like in the fluff!), they simply have to deploy a foot apart.

dadakkaest wrote:

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Preliminary winners:
Eldar, Chaos Daemons

Preliminary losers:
Everybody else.

Why? Because when you can create extra units out of thin air every turn, nothing else really matters.

Funny that it took two pages to get it right.

I like this idea. My Eldar get Daemons almost for free. Now I'm going to pick up a bunch of Horror boxes.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Now I'm going to pick up a bunch of Horror boxes.

Exactly.

Welcome to edition: Pink Horrors. All non-eldar, non-daemons players please exit to the left in an orderly fashion,

Having just played a game with the new Tactical Objectives rules, the best Armies will be the ones with fast moving scoring units that can reach/accomplish the right Objectives in time. If you're parked on Obj. 2 and you only get to score points for collecting Obj. 5, you need to move.

Something tells me BA and Orks will get their much deserved boost.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Having just played a game with the new Tactical Objectives rules, the best Armies will be the ones with fast moving scoring units that can reach/accomplish the right Objectives in time. If you're parked on Obj. 2 and you only get to score points for collecting Obj. 5, you need to move.

Something tells me BA and Orks will get their much deserved boost.

BA is overpriced for what it can achieve.

From the RTTs in the 6th ed, Ork players were really struggling. Not sure if this will change. I guess not.

 Triton wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Explain to me why the orks have no psychic defense and cannot stop spells?

Even my Tau can do that, and they dont even have a worthless psyker option.

And assault spill over helps orks more than it hurts. I am so sick of my warboss with 5-6 attacks 1shotting my challenging opponent and wasting the rest of my wounds.

Because this is 7th edition, the age of Combined Arms Detachments. Clearly they made the rules expecting Orks to take a second detachment from some other Psyker-friendly faction.

Prior to 7th, the game was like Magic the Gathering being played as a mono-color deck. Pure Red, Pure Black, Pure White, etc sometimes with just a splash of allies for flavor.

Now we're getting into true multi-faction army building which may even help with the balance problems of the game. It allows GW to focus on what each faction does best. If you like melee, you pick up Orks. If you like magic, you pick up Daemons. If you like swarms and swarms of things, you grab Tyranids or Imperial Guard. Building an army has become a matter of picking the right combination of detachments to suit your strategy. This is similar to building a Red/Black deck, or a Green/White weenie rush deck, or a five-color-Legends deck.

The options are limitless because we can FORGE A NARRATIVE!

Until you realize that not everything gets to easily ally

No, it's pretty easy. Ultramarines will happily ally with Tyranids to fight Dark Eldar (you know, just like in the fluff!), they simply have to deploy a foot apart.

Except Chaos Daemons and IG are come the apocalypse meaning they only work normally if 12" apart and don't benefit from one another like several other armies do. The only way to truly make the statement so is if all armies were BB or all were AoC. At the moment the alliance chart is all over the place and then a big chunk of imperial zerg fest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Having just played a game with the new Tactical Objectives rules, the best Armies will be the ones with fast moving scoring units that can reach/accomplish the right Objectives in time. If you're parked on Obj. 2 and you only get to score points for collecting Obj. 5, you need to move.

Something tells me BA and Orks will get their much deserved boost.

BA is overpriced for what it can achieve.

From the RTTs in the 6th ed, Ork players were really struggling. Not sure if this will change. I guess not.

That and it is utterly random what you get, how many points you get, which objectives you need, and is an optional choice that likely many will not play just as many just go hammer of wrath deployment and go standard objective numbers rather than going for the relic and the sorts.

dadakkaest wrote:

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Preliminary winners:
Eldar, Chaos Daemons

Preliminary losers:
Everybody else.

Why? Because when you can create extra units out of thin air every turn, nothing else really matters.

Funny that it took two pages to get it right.

Meh. Space wolves in drop pods with rune priests will own those suckers before they can produce anything.

 Havok210 wrote:
Since the new edition is out now, I am curious who everyone feels are the winners and losers when it comes to armies. I know it is early, but here are my initial impressions:

Eldar (losers) - Wave Serpents took a hit with Jinx changes. Eldar Psychers may have gotten stronger.

Space Marines (not sure) - from what I have read so far, I am not seeing any real loss or gain for them.

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

What do you all think?

pretty much what I thought too....

Winner: Stormraven.

Up side:

1 ) Its is a Vehicle and thus is harder to destroy.

2 ) It is a transport. Transports now protect their riders form psychic powers.

3 ) It is a transport. Transports now can be used by Battle brothers.

4 ) It is a Flyer. Flyers now jink at 4+.

5 ) It is a Flyer. Flyers are still just as hard to hit as they were in 6th. There were a lot of rumor / wish listing that had the flyers taking a nerff of some kind. Like all snap shots would be BS 2.

6 ) It is a Assault Vehicle. Now that Flying Monstrous Creatures were nerffed, It is one of the few ways you can Zoom in one turn and Hover + Assault (with the troops inside), the next. Thats a total move of up to 66' + assault.

7 ) Assault is now a bit more deadly with the changes to how Challenge works. Any unit geared of to assault, transported in a Raven, will take great advantage to the new challenge rules.

8 ) It can transport a Dreadnought. Dreadnought are a Vehicle and thus are harder to destroy, a Venerable even more so. Dreadnoughts also gain Hammer of Wrath. This increases the power potential of their payload.

9 ) They are not a Helldrake and so did not get hit by their nerff of no 360 shooting!


Down side:

1 ) Zooming Flyers can not score. This is a big problem but is mitigated by the fact that a flyer can hover to score.

2 ) Flyers will crash if it surfers a immobilize result on a roll of 1-2 on a d6. Dose this mean Grav weapons are now something to be worried about?

Arent stormravens also immune to melta damage? or is that specific variants? thats another bonus since meltas are pretty much the only weapon thats going to pop vehicles barring some awesome dice luck now lol.

Ravenwing got nut checked pretty hard with the jink nerf making running and gunning obsolete. For an army that runs and guns that is...problematic. The Neph was good for 5 minutes till the FAQ came out.

Good thing too, with all those ravenwing armies brutally tabling people.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Arent stormravens also immune to melta damage? or is that specific variants? thats another bonus since meltas are pretty much the only weapon thats going to pop vehicles barring some awesome dice luck now lol.

Yeh, Marine flyers have Ceramite armour. Meltas don't get the extra d6 AP

The other huge loss to Tau is that Skyfire + Intercept no longer gives full BS skill to ground targets.

tag8833 wrote:
Winners
1) Imperial Knights. Hard to kill before. Just got harder by a lot.
2) Demons. The psychic powers are hug buffs for demons. Demons can put out a ton of psychic dice. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
3) Grey Knights. The new psychic powers are buffs, and they pump out a ton of warp charges. Also they are now battle brothers with a lot of armies. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
4) Imperial Guard (AM). The new vehicle pen tables are big. The MC debuffs are big.
5) Space Marines. Super scoring Rhinos and Drop pods are ridiculous. Land Raiders are nearly unkillable in many matchups. Walkers are Killing machines.

Losers
1) Tyranids. MC were nerfed in several big ways. FMC's lose vector strikes and can't assault. S6 AP:- can no longer explode anything. Limited AP:2, and no AP:1 weapons.
*Big Gap*
2) Orks. The king of open top vehicles. Squads inside now vulnerable to flamers. Limited AP:2, no AP:1.
3) Dark Eldar. Beaststar is beatable via good deny the witch planning. Lost some battle brothers.
*Big Gap*
4) Tau. Lost of Ovesa Star. Limited ability to deal with armor already, and now worse. New missions favor a moving army not a static gunline. No more Eldar BB. Still a Top tier army.
5) Necrons. Psychic powers get buffed. No Psychers.

The Necrons only really gained from 7e.

Now the guys who really lost from 7e other than the Tyranids would be the Blood Angels who lost fast vehicle from all but ONE model (but still pay the old price) and all their unique psychic powers.