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Well they specifically FAQ ed the demons to lose IC. Why would they not also do it to the Necrons if it isn't allowed?

 Mythra wrote:
Well they specifically FAQ ed the demons to lose IC. Why would they not also do it to the Necrons if it isn't allowed?

The same reason they gave Objective Secured to Pedro Kantor's Sternguard, but not to Trazyn.

MarkCron wrote:
I hate to burst this bubble, but you can't join a chariot and a rider to anything, even if it is an IC.

Firstly, even assuming you keep IC, which I don't think is the case (see the Dark Eldar FAQ), your unit type will be Chariot, with Independent Character special rule. Hence, the SurfLord is a vehicle.

Second, the chariot has a transport capacity of 1.

So, as the rider and unit are one you are either:

-trying to join a vehicle to an infantry unit (not allowed - the rule specifically states that characters cannot join units that CONTAIN vehicles); or
- the unit (being the wraiths with an IC) are partially embarked on the chariot, which is also not allowed.

Nothing prevents your ordinary vehicle from joining units. The vehicle just doesn't have the ability to do so. If there was some mechanism that gave Independent Character to a vehicle, that vehicle could then join units as long as the units it was choosing to join were not composed of vehicles or monstrous creatures.

Chariot provides the mechanism that gives the Independent Character special rule to a vehicle. They FAQ'd away this ability in the Chaos Demon codex, which is a very critical bit of info since it shows clearly that they are very aware that the Independent Character rule is actively giving something to the Chariot and are choosing to take away the ability in the case of the Chaos Demon chariot. They did not take away the ability in the case of the Necron codex. Now, it certainly is within the realm of possibility that it is by some mistake or oversight that they did not also include a line in the Necron codex that takes away Independent Character special rule for the CCB, but in the absence of such a line it's very clear what you have to assume to be RAI, namely that the CCB can join units since it is indeed an Independent Character.

Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.

Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)

 skoffs wrote:
Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.

Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)

There is no ambiguity in terms of the Death Ray. You just resolve the Death Ray as you are supposed to. Invisibility provides no mechanism for preventing a Death Ray from doing what it does. It may seem to you and others that Invisibility should do something in this scenario, but currently there is no rules ambiguity.

MarkCron wrote:
I hate to burst this bubble, but you can't join a chariot and a rider to anything, even if it is an IC.

Firstly, even assuming you keep IC, which I don't think is the case (see the Dark Eldar FAQ), your unit type will be Chariot, with Independent Character special rule. Hence, the SurfLord is a vehicle.

Second, the chariot has a transport capacity of 1.

So, as the rider and unit are one you are either:

-trying to join a vehicle to an infantry unit (not allowed - the rule specifically states that characters cannot join units that CONTAIN vehicles); or
- the unit (being the wraiths with an IC) are partially embarked on the chariot, which is also not allowed.

To clearly state, I think that Necron Overlords on Catacomb Command Barges SHOULD loose the Independent part of Independent Character.
Secondly, your argument has an issue. It is said that characters cannot join units that contain a vehicle, not that a vehicle character cannot join a unit. Same words, but a fundamental difference due to a change in word order.
Finally, bringing up the idea of embarking wraiths just muddies the point. No one is attempting to do that.

Once again, however... It didn't work well in practice, and should not be allowed.

However... using the CCB as a blocking unit for the Wraiths and being the first to charge troops that have a lot of small arms fire and no heavy weapons... delicious!

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.

Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)

There is no ambiguity in terms of the Death Ray. You just resolve the Death Ray as you are supposed to. Invisibility provides no mechanism for preventing a Death Ray from doing what it does. It may seem to you and others that Invisibility should do something in this scenario, but currently there is no rules ambiguity.

The problem stems from here-
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597568.page

The consensus seems to be that via RAW you can shoot and hit an invisible unit with the Death Ray, but that could cause other problems because as currently written you could also use it to hit enemy units engaged in combat. It's tricky because, while it might be a good counter invisibility tactic, allowing Doomscythes to mow down enemy units tied up in combat is most definitely not the intended use, and the loophole could easily become abused (eg. Scarabs tie up big important unit (Wraithknight, deathstar, etc.). Zahndrekh removes Hit and Run, no way for them to get away. Spyders keep pumping Scarabs into the swarm. Doomscythes pass over several times over the course of the game, painting S10 AP1 lines over the tied up enemy unit which is helpless to do anything about it).

Does anyone have the winning list from Adepticon that ran the Transcendent C'tan.

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.

Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)

There is no ambiguity in terms of the Death Ray. You just resolve the Death Ray as you are supposed to. Invisibility provides no mechanism for preventing a Death Ray from doing what it does. It may seem to you and others that Invisibility should do something in this scenario, but currently there is no rules ambiguity.

The problem stems from here-
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597568.page

The consensus seems to be that via RAW you can shoot and hit an invisible unit with the Death Ray, but that could cause other problems because as currently written you could also use it to hit enemy units engaged in combat. It's tricky because, while it might be a good counter invisibility tactic, allowing Doomscythes to mow down enemy units tied up in combat is most definitely not the intended use, and the loophole could easily become abused (eg. Scarabs tie up big important unit (Wraithknight, deathstar, etc.). Zahndrekh removes Hit and Run, no way for them to get away. Spyders keep pumping Scarabs into the swarm. Doomscythes pass over several times over the course of the game, painting S10 AP1 lines over the tied up enemy unit which is helpless to do anything about it).

In the case of using the Death Ray to kill some models locked in combat . . . there is no ambiguity here. The Death Ray can hit units locked in combat. To resolve a Death Ray you are dealing with 2 points on the battlefield and no mechanic of targeting units. Whether or not this is RAI is another issue. If I were a judge for a tournament I would allow it unless the venue had a specific rule disallowing this. Part of tourney play is finding the loopholes to be exploited. There is a definite loophole here. And savvy players should take advantage.

col_impact wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
I hate to burst this bubble, but you can't join a chariot and a rider to anything, even if it is an IC.

Firstly, even assuming you keep IC, which I don't think is the case (see the Dark Eldar FAQ), your unit type will be Chariot, with Independent Character special rule. Hence, the SurfLord is a vehicle.

Second, the chariot has a transport capacity of 1.

So, as the rider and unit are one you are either:

-trying to join a vehicle to an infantry unit (not allowed - the rule specifically states that characters cannot join units that CONTAIN vehicles); or
- the unit (being the wraiths with an IC) are partially embarked on the chariot, which is also not allowed.

Nothing prevents your ordinary vehicle from joining units. The vehicle just doesn't have the ability to do so. If there was some mechanism that gave Independent Character to a vehicle, that vehicle could then join units as long as the units it was choosing to join were not composed of vehicles or monstrous creatures.

Chariot provides the mechanism that gives the Independent Character special rule to a vehicle. They FAQ'd away this ability in the Chaos Demon codex, which is a very critical bit of info since it shows clearly that they are very aware that the Independent Character rule is actively giving something to the Chariot and are choosing to take away the ability in the case of the Chaos Demon chariot. They did not take away the ability in the case of the Necron codex. Now, it certainly is within the realm of possibility that it is by some mistake or oversight that they did not also include a line in the Necron codex that takes away Independent Character special rule for the CCB, but in the absence of such a line it's very clear what you have to assume to be RAI, namely that the CCB can join units since it is indeed an Independent Character.

That's incorrect. IC does not transfer to the CCB. It is a special rule that does not pass to the unit the IC joins. I think you're stretching the phrase "However, a chariot is always treated as a single model." a bit too far.

The entire paragraph reads "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dueal profile - a non vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below) and a vehicle profile for the chariot itself. However, a Chariot is always treated as a single models. For the purposes of characteristics tests, always use the rider's profile. Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a chariot model apply to both rider and chariot"

So, it is clear that both models retain their own profiles, hence in this case the Overlord still has IC. However, the Chariot doesn't. BOTH the Chariot and the Overlord have to have IC for the combined unit to be able to join, because IC is not a special rule that transfers to the unit the IC joins.

The fact that GW has not updated the Necron FAQ to explicitly disallow the unit from joining (yet) does not imply that their intent was to allow the unit to join. Indeed, the FAQ will need to explicityly transfer IC to the Chariot or explicitly allow the Chariot to join units as if it was an IC in order for this to be legal imo.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu-adom wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
I hate to burst this bubble, but you can't join a chariot and a rider to anything, even if it is an IC.

Firstly, even assuming you keep IC, which I don't think is the case (see the Dark Eldar FAQ), your unit type will be Chariot, with Independent Character special rule. Hence, the SurfLord is a vehicle.

Second, the chariot has a transport capacity of 1.

So, as the rider and unit are one you are either:

-trying to join a vehicle to an infantry unit (not allowed - the rule specifically states that characters cannot join units that CONTAIN vehicles); or
- the unit (being the wraiths with an IC) are partially embarked on the chariot, which is also not allowed.

[snip]
Secondly, your argument has an issue. It is said that characters cannot join units that contain a vehicle, not that a vehicle character cannot join a unit. Same words, but a fundamental difference due to a change in word order.[/snip]

My argument is fine. An IC cannot join a unit that CONTAINS a vehicle. The Chariot is a vehicle, which the rider is embarked ON, so that doesn't contravene the rule. When you put the vehicle into a unit of wraiths (assuming it has the IC special rule, which it doesn't), the Overlord can't join the unit because it contains a vehicle. In order for this to be possible at all you need to show the rule from the rulebook which explicitly passes the IC special rule to the vehicle, because otherwise iit isn't a vehicle character in any event.

MarkCron - you are confusing the old way of handling Chariots with the new way. The Chariot is no longer a dedicated transport.

An IC does not join or embark upon a Chariot. It cannot disembark from the Chariot. The rider is inextricably part of the Chariot entity. The rider is one half of a dual profile that is collectively the Chariot, which is to be treated as a single model. There are no two entities, only a single entity.

The Chariot model has the IC rule not because it was tranferred by the IC but because the IC rule is on its dual profile.

The Chaos Demon FAQ specifically removes the IC rule from its Chariot because otherwise the Chaos Demon Chariot would have that rule as part of its dual profile.

col_impact wrote:
MarkCron - you are confusing the old way of handling Chariots with the new way. The Chariot is no longer a dedicated transport.

An IC does not join or embark upon a Chariot. It cannot disembark from the Chariot. The rider is inextricably part of the Chariot entity. The rider is one half of a dual profile that is collectively the Chariot, which is to be treated as a single model. There are no two entities, only a single entity.

The Chariot model has the IC rule not because it was tranferred by the IC but because the IC rule is on its dual profile.

The Chaos Demon FAQ specifically removes the IC rule from its Chariot because otherwise the Chaos Demon Chariot would have that rule as part of its dual profile.

Actually, the FAQ is clear that the CCB has a transport capacity of 1, it's rider, which the Necron overlord becomes. There is no indication in the FAQ that the profile of the IC transfers to the Chariot. I am aware of the rule changes. My prior post was pretty clear - please cite the rule that you are relying on to transfer IC to the Chariot.

MarkCron wrote:

col_impact wrote:
MarkCron - you are confusing the old way of handling Chariots with the new way. The Chariot is no longer a dedicated transport.

An IC does not join or embark upon a Chariot. It cannot disembark from the Chariot. The rider is inextricably part of the Chariot entity. The rider is one half of a dual profile that is collectively the Chariot, which is to be treated as a single model. There are no two entities, only a single entity.

The Chariot model has the IC rule not because it was tranferred by the IC but because the IC rule is on its dual profile.

The Chaos Demon FAQ specifically removes the IC rule from its Chariot because otherwise the Chaos Demon Chariot would have that rule as part of its dual profile.

Actually, the FAQ is clear that the CCB has a transport capacity of 1, it's rider, which the Necron overlord becomes. There is no indication in the FAQ that the profile of the IC transfers to the Chariot. I am aware of the rule changes. My prior post was pretty clear - please cite the rule that you are relying on to transfer IC to the Chariot.

From the Necron FAQ . . .



. . .

So, in the FAQ it specifically loses the notion of Transport Capacity.


Further, no transfer mechanism is required to transfer IC to the CCB. It's already on the CCB profile by virtue of the way in which Chariots are being defined in the rules. So by definition.

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.

Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)

There is no ambiguity in terms of the Death Ray. You just resolve the Death Ray as you are supposed to. Invisibility provides no mechanism for preventing a Death Ray from doing what it does. It may seem to you and others that Invisibility should do something in this scenario, but currently there is no rules ambiguity.

Actually, I thought this way, but RAW, there's a catch.

You have to 1) Choose a unit to fire with, 2)Choose a target unit to fire at, then 3) select your weapon.

You have to choose a target to fire at with the Death Ray RAW. So you couldn't choose an Invisible unit as your target, because the Death Ray can't fire snap shots. You could choose another unit wihtout invisibilty, then just ignore the unit you said you were choosing to target and put your 2 points anywhere you like within range, but you do technically have to select a target unit for the Death Ray to fire at.

 jasper76 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.

Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)

There is no ambiguity in terms of the Death Ray. You just resolve the Death Ray as you are supposed to. Invisibility provides no mechanism for preventing a Death Ray from doing what it does. It may seem to you and others that Invisibility should do something in this scenario, but currently there is no rules ambiguity.

Actually, I thought this way, but RAW, there's a catch.

You have to 1) Choose a unit to fire with, 2)Choose a target unit to fire at, then 3) select your weapon.

You have to choose a target to fire at with the Death Ray RAW. So you couldn't choose an Invisible unit as your target, because the Death Ray can't fire snap shots. You could choose another unit wihtout invisibilty, then just ignore the unit you said you were choosing to target and put your 2 points anywhere you like within range, but you do technically have to select a target unit for the Death Ray to fire at.

Except that the rules for Deathray do not require step two of that process. You pick a point on the ground, not a unit, to start the Deathray attack. After you pick a point, you roll 3D6, use that value to find a second point on the ground and every unit underneath the line gets hit by one attack per model under the line. For the Tesla Destructor that is also on the Doomscythe, it has to target a unit that was hit by the Deathray.

But according to the Shooting Sequence, you have to choose a target before you even say you are firing with the Death Ray.

Honestly, I can see both interpretations of this as valid. In other words, without an FAQ, its basically "who thinks my food tastes better than his."

With the Death ray, you seem to have a specific rule that contradicts the general rule.

Either way... this argument started in 5th edition... ran the whole length of 6th, and rears it's head again in 7th.

Only relevant difference between 6th and 7th is that in 7th, you now have to Choose a Target before you Select a Weapon (in 6th, I suppose everything was thought to fire at one time)

In this case, a pretty big difference.

Going by the RAW of the Shooting Phase Sequence the Doom Scythe can choose to target any unit that it can see regardless of range or its ability to actually shoot at it with one of its weapons, so unless the invisible unit is alone on the table odds are the Doom Scythe would be able to target another unit and then shoot the Death Ray at the invisible unit regardless (though unless you manage to also hit the target unit with the Death Ray you won't be able to shoot the Tesla Destructor at the same turn).

 Galorian wrote:
Going by the RAW of the Shooting Phase Sequence the Doom Scythe can choose to target any unit that it can see regardless of range or its ability to actually shoot at it with one of its weapons, so unless the invisible unit is alone on the table odds are the Doom Scythe would be able to target another unit and then shoot the Death Ray at the invisible unit regardless (though unless you manage to also hit the target unit with the Death Ray you won't be able to shoot the Tesla Destructor at the same turn).

Here's the loophole. At no point in the "Choose a Target" section does it say the target unit has to be in firing range, only that you have to "check the range and line of site from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting", and you have to have line of site. Range determinations come into play in the "Check Range" section of Step 3, "Select a Weapon. First part of that step is to select a weapon. Then Death Ray firing mechanics take over.

Thanks for pointing this out, dude. So pick anything you can see, and then fire anywhere you like.

Or just skip the "pick anything you can see" part, and shoot it like it was meant to be shot: 3d6 line of death originating at any point within 12" and advancing in any direction you want.

You can't shoot the Tesla Destructors at the target unit first? (and then have the Death Ray line "miss" that initial target and "accidentally" hit the invisible unit)

Otherwise, if you use the Death Ray first and hit the invisible unit, would you then be still required to fire the Tesla at the first unit (you target) or would you be free to fire them at the unit the Doomscythe actually already hit?

No, that much is clear...the Destrucktors must be fired at one of the units your Death Ray hits if they are fired in the same shooting phase. And the choice of your target there is yours to make.

See p. 50 of the necron dex

@col_impact : going to YMDC thread so we don't get further off topic.

Back on topic,:

a) Crypteks: For me these are becoming auto includes because they allow min warrior squads with less risk that the squad will get wiped out (eg by baleflamer while in GA) but also because it remains the cheapest source of S8, AP2 shooting. As my maelstrom lists normally include 2 squads of scarabs, I'm finding that the lancetek is becoming the norm. However, on the weekend I tried the 10 tesla immortals with veiltek and that unit is massively useful for any maelstrom game.

b) Tomb blades. I bought my first box on the weekend (these things are fiddly to put together!) and decided to magnetise them (that's a little tricky, still haven't finished). But looking at them, I can see two uses.

First is stock, just 20pts, no shields, nebuloscopes or anything. In this config, I think they are quite useful, because it gives you twin linked tesla carbines 4+/4++/5+ (also S5, tesla to combat jink effect) with jet bike movement. This is handy for getting to far away objectives or contesting when not held by superscoring units. They are also useful for messing with the opponent movement phase, because they are quick enough to place so that superscoring units have to go around or through on their way to an objective. But they lack hitting power.

Second, nebuloscopes, particle beamers. This makes them almost twice their cost and means they can't shoot if they jink. However, you've now got a fast unit that can potentially put a lot of wounds on a unit, particularly if you take 5 of them. The problem is that 5 of them is almost the cost of GA+warriors.

So, I'm thinking small 60pt units of three are the way to go - use them for long range contesting, general movement blockers etc. Thoughts?

c) Zandhrek's phases reinforcement rule/Deathmark ethereal interception : Used this on the weekend in a Maelstrom game and it is very, very effective. I was using it for Deathmarks, and that worked well (brought one unit in on an objective to contest and dropped the other in the path of a superscoring unit so they had to go round), but was pretty luck with the scatter roles. However, if you used this with a Warrior unit in NS, it would be brutal. NS in and you can place your superscoring unit on the objective.

Am I missing something? Seen a couple of people talking about using Phased Reinforcements to bring in a Night Scythe. Think this rule only works with Deep Striking units, so not flyers, right?

Also, I'd advise Necron players bringing a Doom Scythe to check with the TO about how they are ruling them as usually in the UK they are (disappointingly) ruled to have to Target a unit before firing (regardless of points on the battlefield etc), that the unit they target must be the first they hit and that they must allocate their wounds as though the Ray were a hull mounted weapon. I speak from miserable experience.

I reckon two CCB overlords with maxed out cryptek courts joining Deathmarks and warriors in night scythes and three annihilation barges will be my necron tourney list in 7th.

I think you are thinking of Ethereal Interception which is the Deathmark version, but will check when I get my codex.

God, if only Flayed Ones had a rule like Ethereal Interception they might actually be more useful.
(actually, seeing as how they can deep strike, I wonder what would be a better investment for late game objective grabbing: 65 points for 5 Flayed Ones, or 60 points for 3 Tomb Blades?)

Kholzerino wrote:
Am I missing something? Seen a couple of people talking about using Phased Reinforcements to bring in a Night Scythe. Think this rule only works with Deep Striking units, so not flyers, right?

Also, I'd advise Necron players bringing a Doom Scythe to check with the TO about how they are ruling them as usually in the UK they are (disappointingly) ruled to have to Target a unit before firing (regardless of points on the battlefield etc), that the unit they target must be the first they hit and that they must allocate their wounds as though the Ray were a hull mounted weapon. I speak from miserable experience.

I reckon two CCB overlords with maxed out cryptek courts joining Deathmarks and warriors in night scythes and three annihilation barges will be my necron tourney list in 7th.

And you weren't incorrect, you have to come in by Deep strike even for Z. Wraiths or Praetorians FTW. Actually Flayed ones might work well too.

RivenSkull wrote:

All CC goes against the front armor now, so that's good, kinda makes up for the loss of being able to leave CC.

I'm still getting through the new brb. What page are you seeing this on? That's freaking huge! No more rear armor in CC?! Sorry, I think my head just exploded....

I believe its part of the chariot rules.

Not sure what exact Page #, but look up Chariots in the index. Its in the Chariots section


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also of interest, check out "Symbiotic Repair" in the new FAQs: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Necrons_v1.0_May14.pdf

All Weapons Destroyed results against a CCB now only result in Crew Stunned...which is overrideable due to "Living Metal".

No idea why, but I'm not complaining.