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This may be THE killer Necron combo that is BAO legal. Pylon-star!

In 7th edition, artillery lost this line . . .




Join Obyron to a unit of 3 Sentry Pylons (T7, 3W, 3+) equipped with Focused Death Rays (and optionally IWND). 1st turn deepstrike into opponent's backfield. Destroy any formations within range with 3 focused Death Rays. Rinse. Repeat.

Works against invisibility, flyers. Jink offers no protection since the Death Ray is not targeted. The Pylon-star would shred up an Imperial Knight and most super-heavies in a turn. It will absolutely decimate other deathstars.

The pylons follow the artillery rules. They are fearless but with zero CC capability. Obyron can deepstrike them out of combat and in range of new targets every turn.

Cost of unit = 3 x 160 (sentry pylons) + Obyron (160) = 640 (695 with IWND).

Any reason why this doesn't work? Is there some FAQ that shuts this down? I must be missing something. Seems brutal.

If its actually rules legal, Obyron is the linchpin to the combo. You might join another IC to the unit just so that IC can take hits and keep Obyron alive and the deep striking "hit and run" mayhem going. Once Obyron is gone the Pylons can be swamped by any CC.

Ideally suited to assassinate other death stars or other large point constellations, it will under-perform and struggle to earn its points against multiple msu style armies that position themselves correctly to minimize death ray hits to losing 2 models per Death Ray.


This idea was mentioned earlier on this forum but it gained no traction because Artillery in 6th edition couldn't move and shoot in the same turn. See http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540635.page

IIRC the Focused Death Ray is Heavy 1, so you'd have to attach a Phaeron to the squad to make it work (unless artillery are already Relentless or somesuch).

Attaching a Phaeron is doable through another IC. And, since the line in the 6th edition artillery rules which prohibited moving and shooting has been removed, Phaeron will effectively make the Pylons relentless.

Do note that one of the biggest advantages of this formation is that the Death Ray targetting rules essentially give it split fire as their targetting rules completely override the standard shooting sequence.

Good positioning and an inadvisible enemy force disposition could theoratically result in the decimation of 3 separate force concentrations half a table away from each other simultaneously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Attaching a Phaeron is doable through another IC. And, since the line in the 6th edition artillery rules which prohibited moving and shooting has been removed, Phaeron will effectively make the Pylons relentless.

I'm aware, I just noted that it needed to be done.

 Galorian wrote:
Do note that one of the biggest advantages of this formation is that the Death Ray targetting rules essentially give it split fire as their targetting rules completely override the standard shooting sequence.

Good positioning and an inadvisible enemy force disposition could theoratically result in the decimation of 3 separate force concentrations half a table away from each other simultaneously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Attaching a Phaeron is doable through another IC. And, since the line in the 6th edition artillery rules which prohibited moving and shooting has been removed, Phaeron will effectively make the Pylons relentless.

I'm aware, I just noted that it needed to be done.

Yup, and thanks for spotting that. I am looking for ways that shut down this cheese.

How about this for a list?

HQ:
Obyron
Overlord + Phaeron + Sempiternal Weave + Phase Shifter

Troops:
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
5 Warriors + Night Scythe

Heavy Support:
3 Sentry Pylons + 3 Focused Death Rays + 3 Sepulchral Scarabs
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

LoW:
Tessaract Vault + Seismic Assault + Sky of Falling Stars

Total: 1,995pts



Just plain evil...

It's extremely expensive, but causes vast destruction among most enemies. With 3 FDR, everything without a good ++ will die 100%.

 Galorian wrote:
How about this for a list?

HQ:
Obyron
Overlord + Phaeron + Sempiternal Weave + Phase Shifter

Troops:
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
5 Warriors + Night Scythe

Heavy Support:
3 Sentry Pylons + 3 Focused Death Rays + 3 Sepulchral Scarabs
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

LoW:
Tessaract Vault + Seismic Assault + Sky of Falling Stars

Total: 1,995pts



Just plain evil...

Tessaract Vault is not BAO legal, but it's ok. You need more OS units.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Tessaract Vault is not BAO legal, but it's ok. You need more OS units.

How about this then?

HQ:
Obyron
Overlord + Phaeron + Sempiternal Weave + Phase Shifter
2 Harbingers of Destruction

Troops:
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
7 Warriors + Ghost Ark
6 Warriors + Ghost Ark

Heavy Support:
3 Sentry Pylons + 3 Focused Death Rays + 3 Sepulchral Scarabs
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

Total: 1,999pts

Get the Overlord a CCB and let it join the Sentries for the lulz

Looks good.
BAO is going to use 1 standard mission, and then a set of 6 malestrom cards for each mission. You NEED to have mobile-OS units to score those points.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Get the Overlord a CCB and let it join the Sentries for the lulz

You kind of need him for the Sentrystar...

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Looks good.
BAO is going to use 1 standard mission, and then a set of 6 malestrom cards for each mission. You NEED to have mobile-OS units to score those points.

I'd think that 2 OS Ghost Arks and 3 NSs with OS warriors in them should cover that, particularly since your enemy would be far too busy trying to survive the Sentrystar, TL Tesla Destructors and 23 Gauss Flayers pointing his way to be able to focus too much firepower on the Arks in the early game and by the time you start dropping off the Scythes' Warriors on objectives his army is going to be a broken mess of eviscerated squads, units who weren't important enough to warrant the Sentrystar's attention and the odd flyer if it came in late or managed to survive the tesla coming its way.

col_impact wrote:
This may be THE killer Necron combo that is BAO legal. Pylon-star!

In 7th edition, artillery lost this line . . .

Spoiler:

Gun models cannot be fired if they
moved at all in that turn's Movement
phase - they cannot make Snap Shots.

Join Obyron to a unit of 3 Sentry Pylons (T7, 3W, 3+) equipped with Focused Death Rays (and optionally IWND). 1st turn deepstrike into opponent's backfield. Destroy any formations within range with 3 focused Death Rays. Rinse. Repeat.

Works against invisibility, flyers. Jink offers no protection since the Death Ray is not targeted. The Pylon-star would shred up an Imperial Knight and most super-heavies in a turn. It will absolutely decimate other deathstars.

The pylons follow the artillery rules. They are fearless but with zero CC capability. Obyron can deepstrike them out of combat and in range of new targets every turn.

Cost of unit = 3 x 160 (sentry pylons) + Obyron (160) = 640 (695 with IWND).

Any reason why this doesn't work? Is there some FAQ that shuts this down? I must be missing something. Seems brutal.

If its actually rules legal, Obyron is the linchpin to the combo. You might join another IC to the unit just so that IC can take hits and keep Obyron alive and the deep striking "hit and run" mayhem going. Once Obyron is gone the Pylons can be swamped by any CC.

Ideally suited to assassinate other death stars or other large point constellations, it will under-perform and struggle to earn its points against multiple msu style armies that position themselves correctly to minimize death ray hits to losing 2 models per Death Ray.


This idea was mentioned earlier on this forum but it gained no traction because Artillery in 6th edition couldn't move and shoot in the same turn. See http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540635.page

Are you sure this is legal? Isn't the sentry pylons immobilized (or can't move)?

If you can do that, wouldn't that be like joining an IC to the quad-guns and then teleporting him and the quad-gun from location to location?




Automatically Appended Next Post:


BTW, BAO is going to rule the following in their tournaments. I'm pretty sure Nova will follow suit. That means a lot of the smaller tournaments will do the same.


1. Bargelords CANNOT join other units.

2. The CCB DOES NOT benefit from the rider's phase shifters.

 jy2 wrote:
Are you sure this is legal? Isn't the sentry pylons immobilized (or can't move)?

If you can do that, wouldn't that be like joining an IC to the quad-guns and then teleporting him and the quad-gun from location to location?

Sentry Pylons are an artillery type unit that has the Canoptek Artillery special rule, which states that they may move and fire without need for a crew and are not removed from play due to the lack of one (duh).

I don't see anything here that would prevent an IC from joining this unit.

If that's the case, then that is actually a pretty darn good strategy.

 jy2 wrote:

If that's the case, then that is actually a pretty darn good strategy.

You'd also want to place the Phaeron Overlord between the pylons and the biggest return-fire threat on the board to use him as a 3W Sv2+/3++ shield for the majority toughness 7 unit, next turn have Obyron take up a second flank (switch them around to keep the 3++ on the side where your enemy has AP2 shooting). With an effective range of 24+3d6" you probably won't have to deepstrike this squad more than once or twice during a game unless you have a CC beatstick squad coming your way you can't kill reliably, so losing those two won't be that big a deal (even "immobilized" the squad will still basically dominate half the table and will have already inflicted its alpha strike, so at worst you'll have to use the rest of your army to perform mop up duty and hold objective under their protective cover of stupendous firepower).

You risk handing out Slay the Warlord this way, but taking down 3 T7 2+/3++ wounds is no mean feat so I'd say it's worth the risk.

 Galorian wrote:
How about this then?

HQ:
Obyron
Overlord + Phaeron + Sempiternal Weave + Phase Shifter
2 Harbingers of Destruction

Troops:
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
7 Warriors + Ghost Ark
6 Warriors + Ghost Ark

Heavy Support:
3 Sentry Pylons + 3 Focused Death Rays + 3 Sepulchral Scarabs
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

Total: 1,999pts

Well, what if we bring it in line with your average tournament (1850).
And if we're going for maximum Maelstrom points, switch out those Destruct-teks for a Veil-tek (so you can get on those objectives, anywhere on the table, from turn 1).

HQ:
Obyron
Overlord + Phaeron + Sempiternal Weave + Phase Shifter
1 Veil-tek

Troops:
5 Warriors (Veil-tek goes here)
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
5 Warriors + Ghost Ark
5 Warriors + Ghost Ark

Heavy Support:
3 Sentry Pylons + 3 Focused Death Rays + 3 Sepulchral Scarabs
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

That's 1850 exactly... but it feels like it needs work.
(would dropping one Ghost Ark Warrior unit to beef up the other one and change the foot Warriors to Immortals be a bad idea?)

 skoffs wrote:
Well, what if we bring it in line with your average tournament (1850).
And if we're going for maximum Maelstrom points, switch out those Destruct-teks for a Veil-tek (so you can get on those objectives, anywhere on the table, from turn 1).

HQ:
Obyron
Overlord + Phaeron + Sempiternal Weave + Phase Shifter
1 Veil-tek

Troops:
5 Warriors (Veil-tek goes here)
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
5 Warriors + Night Scythe
5 Warriors + Ghost Ark
5 Warriors + Ghost Ark

Heavy Support:
3 Sentry Pylons + 3 Focused Death Rays + 3 Sepulchral Scarabs
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

That's 1850 exactly... but it feels like it needs work.
(would dropping one Ghost Ark Warrior unit to beef up the other one and change the foot Warriors to Immortals be a bad idea?)

I'd drop the Veiltek and the Sepulchral Scarabs to free up enough points to bring the 3rd NS back.

5 warriors with a Veiltek are far too easy to kill and DS makes them unreliable to boot, as there's a fair chance you won't land them close enough to grab the objective (not to mention mishaps), in which case they'd probably die before getting to their next turn.

The way this list works is by starting the game with your OS guys safe and sound in reserves or inside OS Ghost Arks (which should start out holding "safe" objectives and minimizing exposure to enemy AT fire) while your Sentrystar deepstrikes to midfield within 24" of the juiciest target (and as many secondary targets and objectives as possible) and nukes the enemy to kingdom come and your Barges pick up the slack with survivors and other "unworthy" targets as well as handle AA duty if applicable.

That's turn 1.

Turn 2 should see your Scythes start coming in to assist the Barges and drop warriors off on objectives. The enemy should be hurting bad and running for cover at this point so your Ghost Arks can drop their guys behind to hold your backfield objectives and flat out to grab new ones where you feel that 5 warrior units won't be able to hold. Sentrystar keeps nuking, TL TDs clear the skies and mop up secondary threats.

I sincerely doubt most armies would be able to take the heat for long- early on it should be fairly easy to line up an average of at least 5 models under each FDR line, which would net you a stupendous ~30 S10 AP1 HITS in a single shooting phase. There aren't too many armies who can survive that kind of punishment without crumbling, even ones that do possess decent invul saves.

Your only weaknesses would be armies of elite MCs and/or GMCs with lots of wounds (Wraithknights and Riptides would have a decent chance of surviving a turn of getting focus fired on by the Sentrystar, though the Barges should be able to pick off the last wound, a T C'tan would take an average 4.5 turns of the same), flyer spam lists that are too much for your TL TDs to handle and rerollable 2++ save shenanigans, but what else is new?

 Galorian wrote:
Your only weaknesses would be armies of elite MCs and/or GMCs with lots of wounds (Wraithknights and Riptides would have a decent chance of surviving a turn of getting focus fired on by the Sentrystar, though the Barges should be able to pick off the last wound, a T C'tan would take an average 4.5 turns of the same), flyer spam lists that are too much for your TL TDs to handle and rerollable 2++ save shenanigans, but what else is new?

AFAIK, Death Rays will hit flyers just as easily as ground troops, meaning a flyer-spam list would be easy to handle. However, there is some justification for the beam subtype not being able to hit Zooming flyers and FMCs when it is discussed in terms of psychic powers (BRB p. 28). IA12 and the Necron codex make no distinction between flyers and non-flyers.

The real danger comes from lists that can precision shot Obyron with focused witchfire or other shenanigans, since once he goes down, then you lose a lot of points once the Sentry-star gets hit by even the lowliest of CC. Lose Obyron early and lose the game.


Jy2, it's really too bad about the CCB Overlord ruled as not being allowed to join units by BAO since in testing it has proven to be anything but OP. The loss of mobility and the loss of LOS and other IC being unable to join the unit are major balancing factors. I am sure if you tested it correctly -- without LOS -- you would come to a similar finding. I am sure Reecius relied a lot on your opinion with regards to the issue, so it's too bad you didn't get to test it more accurately with LOS correctly handled. LOS is precisely what would make it OP and that is explicitly not allowed.

It's odd since there are basically 2 chariots in the game right now and GW went out of there way to clarify in a FAQ that the Chaos Demon chariot rider loses his IC and made no such mention in the Necron FAQ. I think the CCB Overlord being allowed to join units falls into the same camp as Demon Farm. People's initial reactions are OMG OP!! and then in actual reality and after dispassionate testing it proves to not be OP.

col_impact wrote:

Jy2, it's really too bad about the CCB Overlord ruled as not being allowed to join units by BAO since in testing it has proven to be anything but OP. The loss of mobility and the loss of LOS and other IC being unable to join the unit are major balancing factors. I am sure if you tested it correctly -- without LOS -- you would come to a similar finding. I am sure Reecius relied a lot on your opinion with regards to the issue, so it's too bad you didn't get to test it more accurately with LOS correctly handled. LOS is precisely what would make it OP and that is explicitly not allowed.

It's odd since there are basically 2 chariots in the game right now and GW went out of there way to clarify in a FAQ that the Chaos Demon chariot rider loses his IC and made no such mention in the Necron FAQ. I think the CCB Overlord being allowed to join units falls into the same camp as Demon Farm. People's initial reactions are OMG OP!! and then in actual reality and after dispassionate testing it proves to not be OP.

Honestly, as a Necron player, I wouldn't mind it if tournaments ruled the bargelord as being able to join other units and if barges get the same 3++ saves as their lords. However, I tend to look at rules issues from the perspective of the entire 40K community as a whole and not just as a Necron player. Necrons are already a very, very good, top-tier army even without these 2 rules issues. Giving them the benefits of the rulings will further serve to alienate the rest of the player base from us Necron players. I don't really want Necrons to be the next "Eldar".

Moreover, I tend to be more conservative in my rules interpretations. If there is some ambiguity, I tend to go with the interpretations that give the least advantage unless there is strong evidence otherwise. Going more extreme in the interpretations will tend to polarize the community as it oftentimes make for unfun games for your opponents if they have to play against this "combo". We are already bleeding 40K players left and right into other hobbies because of the very loose rules in the game that allow for extreme builds. Taking the more conservative route in regards to the rules will usually lead to funner games for players in general as they are not going up against something that they literally have no way of dealing with.

However, if the majority of the 40K players believe that it should be played the more OP way, than I am fine with that also. I am both a leader and a follower in the community.

 jy2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Jy2, it's really too bad about the CCB Overlord ruled as not being allowed to join units by BAO since in testing it has proven to be anything but OP. The loss of mobility and the loss of LOS and other IC being unable to join the unit are major balancing factors. I am sure if you tested it correctly -- without LOS -- you would come to a similar finding. I am sure Reecius relied a lot on your opinion with regards to the issue, so it's too bad you didn't get to test it more accurately with LOS correctly handled. LOS is precisely what would make it OP and that is explicitly not allowed.

It's odd since there are basically 2 chariots in the game right now and GW went out of there way to clarify in a FAQ that the Chaos Demon chariot rider loses his IC and made no such mention in the Necron FAQ. I think the CCB Overlord being allowed to join units falls into the same camp as Demon Farm. People's initial reactions are OMG OP!! and then in actual reality and after dispassionate testing it proves to not be OP.

Honestly, as a Necron player, I wouldn't mind it if tournaments ruled the bargelord as being able to join other units and if barges get the same 3++ saves as their lords. However, I tend to look at rules issues from the perspective of the entire 40K community as a whole and not just as a Necron player. Necrons are already a very, very good, top-tier army even without these 2 rules issues. Giving them the benefits of the rulings will further serve to alienate the rest of the player base from us Necron players. I don't really want Necrons to be the next "Eldar".

Moreover, I tend to be more conservative in my rules interpretations. If there is some ambiguity, I tend to go with the interpretations that give the least advantage unless there is strong evidence otherwise. Going more extreme in the interpretations will tend to polarize the community as it oftentimes make for unfun games for your opponents if they have to play against this "combo". We are already bleeding 40K players left and right into other hobbies because of the very loose rules in the game that allow for extreme builds. Taking the more conservative route in regards to the rules will usually lead to funner games for players in general as they are not going up against something that they literally have no way of dealing with.

However, if the majority of the 40K players believe that it should be played the more OP way, than I am fine with that also. I am both a leader and a follower in the community.

Ironically, the CCB Overlord joining a unit of wraiths would not be the next OP deathstar build that people feared. It just doesn't wind up being OP in actual practice. But the Sentry-star sure looks like it could be!

col_impact wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Jy2, it's really too bad about the CCB Overlord ruled as not being allowed to join units by BAO since in testing it has proven to be anything but OP. The loss of mobility and the loss of LOS and other IC being unable to join the unit are major balancing factors. I am sure if you tested it correctly -- without LOS -- you would come to a similar finding. I am sure Reecius relied a lot on your opinion with regards to the issue, so it's too bad you didn't get to test it more accurately with LOS correctly handled. LOS is precisely what would make it OP and that is explicitly not allowed.

It's odd since there are basically 2 chariots in the game right now and GW went out of there way to clarify in a FAQ that the Chaos Demon chariot rider loses his IC and made no such mention in the Necron FAQ. I think the CCB Overlord being allowed to join units falls into the same camp as Demon Farm. People's initial reactions are OMG OP!! and then in actual reality and after dispassionate testing it proves to not be OP.

Honestly, as a Necron player, I wouldn't mind it if tournaments ruled the bargelord as being able to join other units and if barges get the same 3++ saves as their lords. However, I tend to look at rules issues from the perspective of the entire 40K community as a whole and not just as a Necron player. Necrons are already a very, very good, top-tier army even without these 2 rules issues. Giving them the benefits of the rulings will further serve to alienate the rest of the player base from us Necron players. I don't really want Necrons to be the next "Eldar".

Moreover, I tend to be more conservative in my rules interpretations. If there is some ambiguity, I tend to go with the interpretations that give the least advantage unless there is strong evidence otherwise. Going more extreme in the interpretations will tend to polarize the community as it oftentimes make for unfun games for your opponents if they have to play against this "combo". We are already bleeding 40K players left and right into other hobbies because of the very loose rules in the game that allow for extreme builds. Taking the more conservative route in regards to the rules will usually lead to funner games for players in general as they are not going up against something that they literally have no way of dealing with.

However, if the majority of the 40K players believe that it should be played the more OP way, than I am fine with that also. I am both a leader and a follower in the community.

Ironically, the CCB Overlord joining a unit of wraiths would not be the next OP deathstar build that people feared, but the Sentry-star sure looks like it could be.

And by extension of one of the rules interpretation, then you can join the bargelord to the sentry-star, thereby making an extremely nasty deathstar even nastier!

 jy2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Jy2, it's really too bad about the CCB Overlord ruled as not being allowed to join units by BAO since in testing it has proven to be anything but OP. The loss of mobility and the loss of LOS and other IC being unable to join the unit are major balancing factors. I am sure if you tested it correctly -- without LOS -- you would come to a similar finding. I am sure Reecius relied a lot on your opinion with regards to the issue, so it's too bad you didn't get to test it more accurately with LOS correctly handled. LOS is precisely what would make it OP and that is explicitly not allowed.

It's odd since there are basically 2 chariots in the game right now and GW went out of there way to clarify in a FAQ that the Chaos Demon chariot rider loses his IC and made no such mention in the Necron FAQ. I think the CCB Overlord being allowed to join units falls into the same camp as Demon Farm. People's initial reactions are OMG OP!! and then in actual reality and after dispassionate testing it proves to not be OP.

Honestly, as a Necron player, I wouldn't mind it if tournaments ruled the bargelord as being able to join other units and if barges get the same 3++ saves as their lords. However, I tend to look at rules issues from the perspective of the entire 40K community as a whole and not just as a Necron player. Necrons are already a very, very good, top-tier army even without these 2 rules issues. Giving them the benefits of the rulings will further serve to alienate the rest of the player base from us Necron players. I don't really want Necrons to be the next "Eldar".

Moreover, I tend to be more conservative in my rules interpretations. If there is some ambiguity, I tend to go with the interpretations that give the least advantage unless there is strong evidence otherwise. Going more extreme in the interpretations will tend to polarize the community as it oftentimes make for unfun games for your opponents if they have to play against this "combo". We are already bleeding 40K players left and right into other hobbies because of the very loose rules in the game that allow for extreme builds. Taking the more conservative route in regards to the rules will usually lead to funner games for players in general as they are not going up against something that they literally have no way of dealing with.

However, if the majority of the 40K players believe that it should be played the more OP way, than I am fine with that also. I am both a leader and a follower in the community.

Ironically, the CCB Overlord joining a unit of wraiths would not be the next OP deathstar build that people feared, but the Sentry-star sure looks like it could be.

And by extension of one of the rules interpretation, then you can join the bargelord to the sentry-star, thereby making an extremely nasty deathstar even nastier!

Here's the thing. You can't. ICs cannot join vehicles, which the CCB Overlord is. So you can't add any IC to the unit that the CCB Overlord joins. That's one of the things that keeps the CCB Overlord joining units in check and balanced and self-limiting. I have mentioned this several times. It's frustrating that it's not sinking in to your opinion. It would be nice if you actually did a full examination of the repercussions of a CCB Overlord joining units, since your opinion is so influential on people like Reecius.

Join Obyron first, then let the CCB join?

 Sigvatr wrote:
Join Obyron first, then let the CCB join?

Yes... if you go the order of operations approach.

Designate Unit A
Obyron joins unit A... no vehicles, so no problem
CCBLord joins unit A... there is no text requiring Obyron to leave the unit, just that he can't join after the CCBLord.

But fundamentally, there's a problem. The BRB doesn't tell us if IC's joining units follows orders of operation or if they are simultaneous.

JY2, I agree with the philosophy you expound. Interpret rules as conservatively as possible until it is clear to do otherwise.

col_impact wrote:

 Galorian wrote:
Your only weaknesses would be armies of elite MCs and/or GMCs with lots of wounds (Wraithknights and Riptides would have a decent chance of surviving a turn of getting focus fired on by the Sentrystar, though the Barges should be able to pick off the last wound, a T C'tan would take an average 4.5 turns of the same), flyer spam lists that are too much for your TL TDs to handle and rerollable 2++ save shenanigans, but what else is new?

AFAIK, Death Rays will hit flyers just as easily as ground troops, meaning a flyer-spam list would be easy to handle. However, there is some justification for the beam subtype not being able to hit Zooming flyers and FMCs when it is discussed in terms of psychic powers (BRB p. 28). IA12 and the Necron codex make no distinction between flyers and non-flyers.

The real danger comes from lists that can precision shot Obyron with focused witchfire or other shenanigans, since once he goes down, then you lose a lot of points once the Sentry-star gets hit by even the lowliest of CC. Lose Obyron early and lose the game.

I'm pretty sure the Death Ray was FAQd to not work against flyers. As for sniping Obyron, good f**king luck- he's a 3W Sv2+ model hiding in the back of a majority T7 unit that starts the game hidden in the deepest darkest hole you can find in your deployment zone and deepstrikes into position the moment it hits its first movement phase, after which point the damage is done and taking out the mobility enabling ICs will be nothing more than a stopgap measure that leaves the Pylon squad dominating half the board while the rest of your super mobile army has a field day with the objectives your opponent can't reach due to the ~36" radius death zone in the middle of the board.

 Anpu-adom wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Join Obyron first, then let the CCB join?

Yes... if you go the order of operations approach.

Designate Unit A
Obyron joins unit A... no vehicles, so no problem
CCBLord joins unit A... there is no text requiring Obyron to leave the unit, just that he can't join after the CCBLord.

But fundamentally, there's a problem. The BRB doesn't tell us if IC's joining units follows orders of operation or if they are simultaneous.

JY2, I agree with the philosophy you expound. Interpret rules as conservatively as possible until it is clear to do otherwise.

An order of operations argument is clearly rules lawyering at it's worst since it brings us into this silly arbitrary state where it matters who joins first and defeats the rule in the first place. Obviously, ICs can't (be) join(ed to) vehicles. So if the CCB Overlord joins a unit with an IC in it, the joining is prevented outright to prevent the illegal state. A fundamentalist reading of the rules might support an order of operations interpretation, but not a commonsensical reading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galorian wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Galorian wrote:
Your only weaknesses would be armies of elite MCs and/or GMCs with lots of wounds (Wraithknights and Riptides would have a decent chance of surviving a turn of getting focus fired on by the Sentrystar, though the Barges should be able to pick off the last wound, a T C'tan would take an average 4.5 turns of the same), flyer spam lists that are too much for your TL TDs to handle and rerollable 2++ save shenanigans, but what else is new?

AFAIK, Death Rays will hit flyers just as easily as ground troops, meaning a flyer-spam list would be easy to handle. However, there is some justification for the beam subtype not being able to hit Zooming flyers and FMCs when it is discussed in terms of psychic powers (BRB p. 28). IA12 and the Necron codex make no distinction between flyers and non-flyers.

The real danger comes from lists that can precision shot Obyron with focused witchfire or other shenanigans, since once he goes down, then you lose a lot of points once the Sentry-star gets hit by even the lowliest of CC. Lose Obyron early and lose the game.

I'm pretty sure the Death Ray was FAQd to not work against flyers. As for sniping Obyron, good f**king luck- he's a 3W Sv2+ model hiding in the back of a majority T7 unit that starts the game hidden in the deepest darkest hole you can find in your deployment zone and deepstrikes into position the moment it hits its first movement phase, after which point the damage is done and taking out the mobility enabling ICs will be nothing more than a stopgap measure that leaves the Pylon squad dominating half the board while the rest of your super mobile army has a field day with the objectives your opponent can't reach due to the ~36" radius death zone in the middle of the board.

I found the line in the penultimate April 2013 Necron FAQ but not the current one. Man GW is sloppy. I guess that means that the Death Ray cannot hit zooming flyers, etc.

Did we ever figure out whether the Sentry Pylons would NEED to have a Phaeron with them to be able to fire the same turn Obyron Ghostwalks them?
(I thought they were able to fire after deep striking normally, why would it be different this way instead)

col_impact wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Join Obyron first, then let the CCB join?

Yes... if you go the order of operations approach.

Designate Unit A
Obyron joins unit A... no vehicles, so no problem
CCBLord joins unit A... there is no text requiring Obyron to leave the unit, just that he can't join after the CCBLord.

But fundamentally, there's a problem. The BRB doesn't tell us if IC's joining units follows orders of operation or if they are simultaneous.

JY2, I agree with the philosophy you expound. Interpret rules as conservatively as possible until it is clear to do otherwise.

An order of operations argument is clearly rules lawyering at it's worst since it brings us into this silly arbitrary state where it matters who joins first and defeats the rule in the first place. Obviously, ICs can't (be) join(ed to) vehicles. So if the CCB Overlord joins a unit with an IC in it, the joining is prevented outright to prevent the illegal state. A fundamentalist reading of the rules might support an order of operations interpretation, but not a commonsensical reading....

Col-Impact, a friendly reminder... saying that someone's argument is "silly" and "arbitrary" doesn't make your argument any better. You need a better evidence than asserting that something is "a fundamentalist reading" or "common sense". Just be prepared to back your argument with more substance than that if you are going to play in the YMTC section of the forums.

How about an example that isn't arbitrary? Obyron joins and deploys with Unit A at the start of the game. During the Necron player's first movement phase, the CCBLord moves within 2" and is declared to be a part of the unit. In this instance, the joining of the IC's is clearly not simultaneous, and there is nothing saying that the IC's must leave and rejoin the unit at the end of the movement phase. There is nothing in the rules specifically disallowing this (AND THIS IS A PROBLEM).

BTW, BAO is going to rule the following in their tournaments. I'm pretty sure Nova will follow suit. That means a lot of the smaller tournaments will do the same.


1. Bargelords CANNOT join other units.

2. The CCB DOES NOT benefit from the rider's phase shifters.

I'm really surprised about the 3++ ruling. I figured at the Pricepoint you are paying for the barge, and that it is pretty legal per raw, that it would be fine. Interesting to note though!