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Culexus might be a good thing to include.
You can infiltrate him and just deny every psychic ability around him.
You shouldn't have to worry about him dying with 3W, having a permanent-Invisibility and a 4++
We never have to use our Warp Charges, so he always has a S5, AP1, Assault 3 weapon, even when not fighting Psykers.
He's quite a good tarpit ánd anti-Psyker.
The only issue would be: Are we really that terrified of Psykers and what would we remove for this?

As to the Pariah, I was thinking of him as a Royal Court-option But you're right, this belongs into General since it is a wishlist and not a tactic/rumour.

Any of the other Assassins worth considering?
Apart from anti-psyker, are there any gaps we have in our versatility/answer bag that they can fill?

Culexus makes it possible to remove Invisibility from enemy LoW, something the Transcendant C'Tan cannot receive, so that's a big bonus to him in the power rankings.

Callidus gives Imotekh a re-rollable 4+ seize the initiative.

 skoffs wrote:
Any of the other Assassins worth considering?
Apart from anti-psyker, are there any gaps we have in our versatility/answer bag that they can fill?

Vindicare will be good in any army with his 72"(?) S10 AP2 shot that ignores cover and that can potentially take out Invuln saves.

Shield Eternal Chapter Master? Eat lead and die sucka!

Callidus for the lulz, Vindicare for the above + getting rid of key figures (priest in a conscript blob comes to mind), Culexus for anti magic...

what about the Eversor? Infiltrating combat monster sounds like exactly what we need

 skoffs wrote:
Any of the other Assassins worth considering?
Apart from anti-psyker, are there any gaps we have in our versatility/answer bag that they can fill?

Mumblez had a great summary and I fully agree with him.

Mumblez wrote:The vindicare is great for taking out special/heavy weapons from squads and killing squad leaders.
The callidus is the bane of elite units that are packing 2+ saves.
The eversor is a one-man army who can go toe-to-toe with a horde of bugs or orks and come out on top.
The culexus is the ultimate badass who hard counters psykers.

Our characters lack good weaponry to use the Precision Shot-rule, so Vindicares could be a good way of taking down specific models.
I personally struggle with TEQ's so I want to try out Callidus, he seems to be a great tool against such units.
Eversor is probably not needed since Hordes aren't an issue to me, though I wish he had Hit & Run.
I hardly encounter Psykers and don't need some anti-Psyker model, so I won't be using Culexus.

Callidus and Vindicare are the two models I would really want to use.
So now I have to find a good-looking Necron model to use as a count-ass

 jy2 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Any of the other Assassins worth considering?
Apart from anti-psyker, are there any gaps we have in our versatility/answer bag that they can fill?

Vindicare will be good in any army with his 72"(?) S10 AP2 shot that ignores cover and that can potentially take out Invuln saves.

Shield Eternal Chapter Master? Eat lead and die sucka!

Eat lead and take one wound. Not counting feel no pain.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Any of the other Assassins worth considering?
Apart from anti-psyker, are there any gaps we have in our versatility/answer bag that they can fill?

Vindicare will be good in any army with his 72"(?) S10 AP2 shot that ignores cover and that can potentially take out Invuln saves.

Shield Eternal Chapter Master? Eat lead and die sucka!

Eat lead and take one wound. Not counting feel no pain.

1 wound is all it takes to make him feel the wrath of the warscythe. And BTW, no FNP to S10 shots for T5 guys.

Eternal shield should ignore insta death, letting him take his fnp

That's not how it works. If a hit causes Instant Death, even if the target is immune to Instant Death (i.e. Eternal Warrior or some other special rules), then no FNP may be taken. I believe it is under FNP, though I don't have my book with me right now to check.

Vindicare in the meta means running the bargeLord is a serious liability unless there are large Line of Sight blocking terrain a'plenty.

Auto-precision hit means you can force assign the hit how you want. I imagine you want to force the bargeLord to assign the s10 turbo-penetrator hit to the vehicle profile to have a 50% chance of a penetrating hit that takes down Quantum Shielding and then a 33% of getting an instant death explosion. Alternatively you can force S10 hit against the rider but risk the invulnerability save. So a 33% chance of Instant Death. Since the bargeLord is always a vehicle the turbo-penetrator always resolves at s10.

Lists are going to have to run Vindicares in order to fight opposing Vindicares.

It also makes the Monolith Line of Sight blocking play a stronger play.

It also makes Necron Night Scythes better since they become the best place to put your HQ.

It also makes you deploy the Pylon Star in reserves so you can eliminate the Vindicare when you deep strike in with Obyron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Any of the other Assassins worth considering?
Apart from anti-psyker, are there any gaps we have in our versatility/answer bag that they can fill?

Vindicare will be good in any army with his 72"(?) S10 AP2 shot that ignores cover and that can potentially take out Invuln saves.

Shield Eternal Chapter Master? Eat lead and die sucka!

Eat lead and take one wound. Not counting feel no pain.

1 wound is all it takes to make him feel the wrath of the warscythe. And BTW, no FNP to S10 shots for T5 guys.

Turbo-penetrating ammo is S10 only versus vehicles. Versus non-vehicles it does D3 wounds that can have invul saves and FNP applied.

Hate to sound like a complete noob. But who is Culexus and the other assassins? I've never heard of them.

Edit for spelling

Imperial assassins. They used to be in the Grey Knight book, but they are getting their own dataslate this weekend, if not the weekend gone.

Vindicares are Hollywood movie snipers, Callidus is like the predator from the movies, Eversor are raging monsters that leave a trail of bodies and destruction in their wake, and Culexus make psykers eat their own gak

col_impact wrote:
Vindicare in the meta means running the bargeLord is a serious liability unless there are large Line of Sight blocking terrain a'plenty.

Auto-precision hit means you can force assign the hit how you want. I imagine you want to force the bargeLord to assign the s10 turbo-penetrator hit to the vehicle profile to have a 50% chance of a penetrating hit that takes down Quantum Shielding and then a 33% of getting an instant death explosion. Alternatively you can force S10 hit against the rider but risk the invulnerability save. So a 33% chance of Instant Death. Since the bargeLord is always a vehicle the turbo-penetrator always resolves at s10.

The rider has a non-vehicle profile, it would not be S10 if allocated to him.

BRB: "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile – a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model."

So better to allocate to the chariot, unless playing that the phase shifter confers the invuln to the chariot, in which case it's better to use a shield-breaker round against the overlord.

Tekron wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Vindicare in the meta means running the bargeLord is a serious liability unless there are large Line of Sight blocking terrain a'plenty.

Auto-precision hit means you can force assign the hit how you want. I imagine you want to force the bargeLord to assign the s10 turbo-penetrator hit to the vehicle profile to have a 50% chance of a penetrating hit that takes down Quantum Shielding and then a 33% of getting an instant death explosion. Alternatively you can force S10 hit against the rider but risk the invulnerability save. So a 33% chance of Instant Death. Since the bargeLord is always a vehicle the turbo-penetrator always resolves at s10.

The rider has a non-vehicle profile, it would not be S10 if allocated to him.

BRB: "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile – a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model."

So better to allocate to the chariot, unless playing that the phase shifter confers the invuln to the chariot, in which case it's better to use a shield-breaker round against the overlord.

The bargeLord is always a vehicle. It has two profiles for resolving certain things. But it's always a vehicle. It's unit type is vehicle (chariot).

Another interesting clarification that came to light in the Assassin's thread is that Vindicare does not automatically get a Precise shot. His shots will only be precise shots on a to hit roll of 6. That's a lot less powerful than people were originally reading him to be.

However, he will still be a potent tool against the bargeLord if the Vindicare player always chooses the turbo-penetrator shot (which is the only decent selection if you don't get the Precise shot), since that ammo selection can score an instant-kill no matter which profile you choose.

If the bargeLord is joined to a unit of scarabs or whatever, you can put the scarabs out in front to take the Vindicare hit.

Deadshot sees your scarab wall and laughs.

I think that the shot is S10, because the target of the shot was the command barge. It's then the barge player's choice if it is resolved against the rider or not

The shot is always S10. As correctly stated above, the CCB is a Vehicle (Chariot). Technically, it doesn't have a rider and a vehicle part, it has a rider profle and a vehicle profile.

col_impact wrote:

The bargeLord is always a vehicle. It has two profiles for resolving certain things. But it's always a vehicle. It's unit type is vehicle (chariot).

It has two profiles for resolving shooting attacks against it, and as the BRB says, the rider has a non-vehicle profile. Otherwise you would have to roll to penetrate against the rider if it's unit type was Vehicle. There is no rule anywhere that says the rider gains the chariots unit type.

According to the FAQ the Catacomb Command Barge is a Vehicle (Chariot, Fast, Open-Topped, Skimmer), and from the codex the Overlord is Infantry (Character). Neither of them lost their unit type, they are just combined into a dual profile on one model.

 IHateNids wrote:
Deadshot sees your scarab wall and laughs.

I think that the shot is S10, because the target of the shot was the command barge. It's then the barge player's choice if it is resolved against the rider or not

Read the Deadshot rule carefully. It gives Precision Shot special rule to hits. Then read Precision Shots special rule. It says "If a model with this special rule rolls a 6 To Hit with a shooting weapn, that shot is a 'Precision Shot'"

This seems to be a case of bad rule-writing. The roll of 6 is hard-coded into the Precision Shots USR, so when Deadshot re-applies it, the roll of 6 is still being required.

Tekron wrote:

According to the FAQ the Catacomb Command Barge is a Vehicle (Chariot, Fast, Open-Topped, Skimmer)

Neither of them lost their unit type.

Think again.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The shot is always S10. As correctly stated above, the CCB is a Vehicle (Chariot). Technically, it doesn't have a rider and a vehicle part, it has a rider profle and a vehicle profile.

It is not always S10. It "counts-as" S10 against vehicles:

Dataslate: "Turbo-penetrator: Against vehicles, shots from a turbo-penetrator round count as Strength 10."

Again, from the BRB: "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile – a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model."

The rider has a non-vehicle profile, therefore the Turbo-penetrator does not count as S10.

Tekron wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
The shot is always S10. As correctly stated above, the CCB is a Vehicle (Chariot). Technically, it doesn't have a rider and a vehicle part, it has a rider profle and a vehicle profile.

It is not always S10. It "counts-as" S10 against vehicles:

Dataslate: "Turbo-penetrator: Against vehicles, shots from a turbo-penetrator round count as Strength 10."

Again, from the BRB: "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile – a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model."

The rider has a non-vehicle profile, therefore the Turbo-penetrator does not count as S10.

The ammo does not check profiles. It checks unit types. It is hitting a "vehicle (chariot)".

col_impact wrote:

The ammo does not check profiles. It checks unit types. It is hitting a "vehicle (chariot)".

BRB: " unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile".

If the rider did not maintain his unit type then he would no longer be a character, whereas the BRB is also clear that "A character mounted on a Chariot is referred to as the rider."

If the Necron Overlord loses his Infantry (Character) unit type and becomes Vehicle (Chariot, Fast, Open-Topped, Skimmer) then you lose all permission to roll to wound him, and instead have to roll to penetrate. There is no rules basis for anything you are saying, which is probably why I am the only one here who has quoted from the BRB or Dataslate.

Ok then.

The different types of vehicle are: Chariot, Fast, Flyer, Heavy, Hover, Open-topped, Skimmer, Tank, Transport, Walker, Super-heavy vehicle, Super-heavy Walker and Super-heavy Flyer. These types can be combined to define, for example, a Fast Skimmer or an Open-topped Walker, in which case, the vehicle has all of the rules for all of its types.

This is located near the beginning of the vehicle section.
It flat out tells you that the chariot is a type of vehicle.

Tekron wrote:

col_impact wrote:

The ammo does not check profiles. It checks unit types. It is hitting a "vehicle (chariot)".

BRB: " unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile".

If the rider did not maintain his unit type then he would no longer be a character, whereas the BRB is also clear that "A character mounted on a Chariot is referred to as the rider."

If the Necron Overlord loses his Infantry (Character) unit type and becomes Vehicle (Chariot, Fast, Open-Topped, Skimmer) then you lose all permission to roll to wound him, and instead have to roll to penetrate. There is no rules basis for anything you are saying, which is probably why I am the only one here who has quoted from the BRB or Dataslate.

You are correct that indeed you would lose all permission to wound the Necron Overlord and instead have to roll to penetrate, except that the Chariot rules include specific rules detailing the implementation of a rider profile and a chariot profile. Without those specific rules you would indeed be stuck and have to roll to penetrate because you are dealing with one model that is a vehicle.

The real question is what does the ammo check? The profile or the unit type? You are only given specific permission to use profiles, otherwise you don't have access to a notion of profile and are just checking "what is the thing I am hitting".

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ok then.

The different types of vehicle are: Chariot, Fast, Flyer, Heavy, Hover, Open-topped, Skimmer, Tank, Transport, Walker, Super-heavy vehicle, Super-heavy Walker and Super-heavy Flyer. These types can be combined to define, for example, a Fast Skimmer or an Open-topped Walker, in which case, the vehicle has all of the rules for all of its types.

This is located near the beginning of the vehicle section.
It flat out tells you that the chariot is a type of vehicle.

Obviously the chariot is a vehicle. It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that the rider is a vehicle. In fact is says very specifically that it has a "non-vehicle profile".

Arguing that the rider with a "non-vehicle profile" has a vehicle unit type is bizarre.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

You are correct that indeed you would lose all permission to wound the Necron Overlord and instead have to roll to penetrate, except that the Chariot rules include specific rules detailing the implementation of a rider profile and a chariot profile. Without those specific rules you would indeed be stuck and have to roll to penetrate because you are dealing with one model that is a vehicle.

The real question is what does the ammo check? The profile or the unit type? You are only given specific permission to use profiles, otherwise you don't have access to a notion of profile and are just checking "what is the thing I am hitting".

The chariot rules are actually not very specific when resolving shooting attacks against it. It never gives specific permission to roll to wound against the rider.

BRB: "The player controlling the Chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit. If several pools of hits need to be allocated, the player making the attacks must decide in which order they are resolved. All hits from a single pool must be allocated and resolved before moving on to the next pool of hits. Hit pools from Blast and Template weapons are always resolved against the Chariot. If the Chariot model is hit by a Precision Shot, that hit is allocated by the firer, not the owning player.
When resolving successful hits that have been assigned to a Chariot, work out which of its Armour Values to use as you would for any other vehicle, based on the position of the model compared to the model firing at it."

The only way you get permission to roll to wound against the rider is because of "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile – a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself." You get to roll to wound against the "non-vehicle profile".

Speaking of assassins, I noticed that the callidus can ignore invulnerable saves again.

Hopefully this means crons will be able to next codex release.

Anyway, back on topic,
So to clarify, are you saying that the S10 turboshot cannot applied to the chariot, or to the rider? Because one of those seems wrong.

Tekron wrote:


Against vehicles, shots from a turbo-penetrator round count as Strength 10.

According to the FAQ the Catacomb Command Barge is a Vehicle (Chariot, Fast, Open-Topped, Skimmer)

Tekron wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ok then.

The different types of vehicle are: Chariot, Fast, Flyer, Heavy, Hover, Open-topped, Skimmer, Tank, Transport, Walker, Super-heavy vehicle, Super-heavy Walker and Super-heavy Flyer. These types can be combined to define, for example, a Fast Skimmer or an Open-topped Walker, in which case, the vehicle has all of the rules for all of its types.

This is located near the beginning of the vehicle section.
It flat out tells you that the chariot is a type of vehicle.

Obviously the chariot is a vehicle. It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that the rider is a vehicle. In fact is says very specifically that it has a "non-vehicle profile".

Arguing that the rider with a "non-vehicle profile" has a vehicle unit type is bizarre.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

You are correct that indeed you would lose all permission to wound the Necron Overlord and instead have to roll to penetrate, except that the Chariot rules include specific rules detailing the implementation of a rider profile and a chariot profile. Without those specific rules you would indeed be stuck and have to roll to penetrate because you are dealing with one model that is a vehicle.

The real question is what does the ammo check? The profile or the unit type? You are only given specific permission to use profiles, otherwise you don't have access to a notion of profile and are just checking "what is the thing I am hitting".

The chariot rules are actually not very specific when resolving shooting attacks against it. It never gives specific permission to roll to wound against the rider.

BRB: "The player controlling the Chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit. If several pools of hits need to be allocated, the player making the attacks must decide in which order they are resolved. All hits from a single pool must be allocated and resolved before moving on to the next pool of hits. Hit pools from Blast and Template weapons are always resolved against the Chariot. If the Chariot model is hit by a Precision Shot, that hit is allocated by the firer, not the owning player.
When resolving successful hits that have been assigned to a Chariot, work out which of its Armour Values to use as you would for any other vehicle, based on the position of the model compared to the model firing at it."

The only way you get permission to roll to wound against the rider is because of "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile – a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself." You get to roll to wound against the "non-vehicle profile".

In order for you to get what you want, there would have to be specific permission along the lines of "treat any special rules being triggered in the resolution of hits and wounds against the rider profle as being resolved against unit type infantry"

What you are advocating makes sense from a design perspective. The problem is there is missing logic. The ammo just checks what it is hitting.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Anyway, back on topic,
So to clarify, are you saying that the S10 turboshot cannot applied to the chariot, or to the rider? Because one of those seems wrong.

I'm saying against the chariot, it counts as S10. Against the rider, it is S:X Sniper, doing D3 wounds.

"Turbo-penetrator: Against vehicles, shots from a turbo-penetrator round count as Strength 10. Against all other targets, shots from a turbo-penetrator round inflict D3 Wounds, rather than just 1."