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col_impact wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Could a DespairTek Deepstrike in with a unit of Deathmarks?

Yup. Crypteks are Characters and are thereby just another trooper in the unit of Deathmarks.

Spoiler:

Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad
leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not
have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with
enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices.

Thanks, just trying to squeeze in more Stormteks in my list, going to play around with deepstriking the D+D squad rather than using the night scythe

If you take this approach, you need to deepstrike aggressively (really close to the target) to maximize the chances you will land within template range and rapid fire range. Keep in mind that 66% of the time you will scatter and scatter on a bell curve centered around 7". Sometimes people make visual guides to view the bell curve.

Could you ellaborate on the bellcurve?

 NecronLord3 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:

After all, there have been players using the 3++ on the barge, and the chariot rules are so full of shenanigans already it's easy to see how such misunderstandings can happen.

Players should be applying the 3++ on the chariot profile. Not only is that RAW, but the new Space Wolf codex indicates that that is RAI.

You are totally right but get the tournament FAQs to agree with you. FAQ rule #1 - what ever is in the necron players favor, rule against it.

I don't mind playing the BAO or Nova FAQs. But in the case of those tournaments where it's just 7th edition rules or in general pick up games, the bargeLord has RAW and RAI support for 3++ applied to the chariot profile and should be played that way.

Eldercaveman wrote:


Could you ellaborate on the bellcurve?

article: http://40kangelsofdeath.blogspot.com/2012/11/mathhammer-part-3-deep-strike.html

Eldercaveman wrote:

Could you ellaborate on the bellcurve?

Simply put there are more ways for the dice to total 7 than there is to total any other number. so you will see 7 more often. Thus expanding on earlier remark about scatter, 66% chance to scatter, then your average scatter will be 7".

Mind this applies to all 2d6 rolls, Leadership, Charge range, and so on. just something to keep in mind.

Side note:
this bell curve is exactly what the game Craps is played using, 7 being the houses number (casino wins) and all the other numbers is the players numbers. You bet on the chance that you will see any of the other numbers roll twice before a 7 is rolled once.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:

After all, there have been players using the 3++ on the barge, and the chariot rules are so full of shenanigans already it's easy to see how such misunderstandings can happen.

Players should be applying the 3++ on the chariot profile. Not only is that RAW, but the new Space Wolf codex indicates that that is RAI.

You are totally right but get the tournament FAQs to agree with you. FAQ rule #1 - what ever is in the necron players favor, rule against it.

I don't think anyone would agree with the 3++ on the chariot except perhaps a Necron who wants them to be even more broken.

You know that chariot is beyond broken and it's mostly because there's a gap between v5 codex and v7 - and certainly not intended, why do you want it to be even worse ?

morgoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:

After all, there have been players using the 3++ on the barge, and the chariot rules are so full of shenanigans already it's easy to see how such misunderstandings can happen.

Players should be applying the 3++ on the chariot profile. Not only is that RAW, but the new Space Wolf codex indicates that that is RAI.

You are totally right but get the tournament FAQs to agree with you. FAQ rule #1 - what ever is in the necron players favor, rule against it.

I don't think anyone would agree with the 3++ on the chariot except perhaps a Necron who wants them to be even more broken.

You know that chariot is beyond broken and it's mostly because there's a gap between v5 codex and v7 - and certainly not intended, why do you want it to be even worse ?

Huh? It's RAW and RAI. Read the Space Wolves codex and note that the USR of the rider conveys to the chariot unless otherwise blocked. I am sorry if the power level of the bargeLord offends you and you want to bend all logic to prevent any rules-supported buffs but its no where near the most powerful unit in 40k and there is no justification for isolating out the bargeLord for power level intervention that goes against RAW and RAI.

col_impact wrote:

Huh? It's RAW and RAI. Read the Space Wolves codex and note that the USR of the rider conveys to the chariot unless otherwise blocked. I am sorry if the power level of the bargeLord offends you and you want to bend all logic to prevent any rules-supported buffs but its no where near the most powerful unit in 40k and there is no justification for isolating out the bargeLord for power level intervention that goes against RAW and RAI.

It's RAI for the SW guy, the BargeLord was created with the v5 codex and was not intended to benefit from v7 concepts or RAI from a v7 codex.
The BargeLord is a pile of bs that's only effective because it's a v5 codex taking advantage of v7 rules, that was never intended, and the new codex will get rid of all that crap.
If you're willing to abuse the fact that RAW BargeLord has a 3++, do it, just don't ask me to say it's anything else than pure RAW abuse from an outdated codex.

It's RAI for 7ed because they left it as is for 7ed. If they didn't want the CCB to get the 3++ then you would have fixed it in the 7ed Necron FAQ when they changed the other parts of the chariot. But they left it as is so it's clear that's what they intended.

 CrownAxe wrote:
It's RAI for 7ed because they left it as is for 7ed. If they didn't want the CCB to get the 3++ then you would have fixed it in the 7ed Necron FAQ when they changed the other parts of the chariot. But they left it as is so it's clear that's what they intended.

Would be a credible argument if GW was known for fixing all mistakes / discrepancies arising from a change in versions or just basic mistakes when writing their FAQ.

If all big tournaments rule against it, it's because it's clearly not RAI and just a compatibility bug.
If you're taking that 3++, you're a RAW abuser, that's all there is to it.

GW did not intend for the Death Ray to hit invisible units or flyers, they even had a FAQ in v6 to say it wouldn't hit flyers, but somehow they forgot to put it back in v7 - guess what, now it hits flyers.
Do you think that was intended ?

Yes i do think the death ray hitting flyer is RAI because they deliberately removed the FAQ when they updated the Cron FAQ to 7th instead of just leaving it.

And you can't say my argument is invalid because they have fixed problem in the FAQ before. How do you know that the Death Ray or 3++ CCB isn't one of those cases?

Guys, take your discussion private or to YMDC, please don't flood the tactics thread with rules arguments.

No, don't. There already are multiple YMDC threads on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
RAW abuser

...wat.

GW did not intend for the Death Ray to hit invisible units or flyers, they even had a FAQ in v6 to say it wouldn't hit flyers, but somehow they forgot to put it back in v7 - guess what, now it hits flyers.
Do you think that was intended ?

Well, the fact that GW added a rule that explicitely disallows it hitting flyers kinda makes me think that they did see it coming.

I used to think that the 3++ on the chariot profile was just an easter egg that came from a 5th edition codex in a 7th edition game.

However, the Space Wolves codex clarified that the USR of the rider profile conveys to the chariot model (unless noted otherwise).

The chariot rules were an area of focused editing in the move from 6th edition to 7th edition. GW has taken a serious pass at updating the codexes to the 7th edition rules and published a 7th FAQ for each.

There are 3 chariots in the game.

2 out of 3 them make it clear that they lose their IC status and cannot join units. IC status is something that will convey unless noted as removed.

The Space Wolf codex makes it clear that the USR of things like the deep strike ability of terminator armor will convey unless noted as removed. In addition the Space Wolf chariot inherits the 4++ of the iron halo.

The Necron codex has an up to date 7th edition FAQ. These chariot items were obviously very much on the FAQ writers radar since chariots were a hot topic for the 7th edition FAQ so you play the FAQ as provided and assume it reflects RAW and RAI . To say otherwise is to maintain some "conspiracy theory" form of logic or deep cynicism about GW's competence. You can make a case for an editorial mistake on something like the dropping of the FAQ item that clarified that the CCB sweep attack can not hit flyers. However, you can't make that case for the new rules on the CCB that were intentionally written into the 7th edition FAQ.

Now it is certainly within the ability of TOs to house rule this issue and push forward a power level edit. But since the unveiling of the Space Wolves codex, its now clear that they are going against RAW and RAI in doing so. People should put the time into playing the unit as it has been provided RAW and RAI before resorting to power level editing.

Moreover, I have been playing my CCB as having both 3++ on the chariot profile and the ability to join units and it is not OP by any margin. Its just comparable yet lower in power to a Riptide or a Wraithknight. The ability to join units is very limited in the case of the CCB since you don't benefit from Look Out Sir, lose mobility, and cannot be joined by other IC. And people who think the 3++ is unfair should take a hard look at the amount of points being sunk into a CCB and how it rates to other powerful units. The damage output on those things leaves a lot to be desired for the level of point expenditure. I would rather have a Riptide or a Wraithknight or a ChapterMaster on a bike.

Just saying, though:

The 3++ isn't one of the rider's USR. The chariot gets the 3++ because the item explicitely states that the "model" gets the save and the chapter on chariots explicitely tells you to treat rider and chariot as a single model for all rules purposes.

An example for a USR carrying over would be Furious Charge.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just saying, though:

The 3++ isn't one of the rider's USR. The chariot gets the 3++ because the item explicitely states that the "model" gets the save and the chapter on chariots explicitely tells you to treat rider and chariot as a single model for all rules purposes.

An example for a USR carrying over would be Furious Charge.

Thanks for the clarification. The Space Wolves codex makes it clear that the deep strike ability of the terminator armor wargear on the rider would convey to the chariot so they explicitly noted that the chariot does not have deep strike. There is basically a line in there that reveals how to handle wargear in the case of chariots.

Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer. Think it's still worth bringing. Has everyone stopped taking wraiths to tournaments now? Considering bringing a DLord and 6 Wraiths too, for old time's sake. If I knew we would get lots of LoS blocking l would do it. Is everyone else bringing 2 CCBs to any tourney game?

Kholzerino wrote:
Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer. Think it's still worth bringing. Has everyone stopped taking wraiths to tournaments now? Considering bringing a DLord and 6 Wraiths too, for old time's sake. If I knew we would get lots of LoS blocking l would do it. Is everyone else bringing 2 CCBs to any tourney game?

It's still worth bringing, the 3++ on the chariot is never going to happen outside of bullshitland and no serious competitive player ever discussed the CCB with the assumption that it would.

You can find the lists that ranked high on previous tournaments online.

Kholzerino wrote:
Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer.

I irony would be delicious if the codex drops at the end of the month and the 3++ does transfer.

 adamsouza wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer.

I irony would be delicious if the codex drops at the end of the month and the 3++ does transfer.

I don't think you've got any idea.
If the codex drops, CCB will be nerfed hard into the ground and you won't even take them in your tournament list.

Kholzerino wrote:
Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer. Think it's still worth bringing. Has everyone stopped taking wraiths to tournaments now? Considering bringing a DLord and 6 Wraiths too, for old time's sake. If I knew we would get lots of LoS blocking l would do it. Is everyone else bringing 2 CCBs to any tourney game?

Totally. You still get to jink for a cover save against shooting and in combat your Overlord will be the one getting attack almost everytime. The 3++ being on the CCB or not barely makes a difference.

Also morgoth do you actually play necrons? All I ever see so you do in this thread is complain about how "broken" the CCB is (which i find funny since you're also adamant about the wave serapant not being broken)

morgoth wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer. Think it's still worth bringing. Has everyone stopped taking wraiths to tournaments now? Considering bringing a DLord and 6 Wraiths too, for old time's sake. If I knew we would get lots of LoS blocking l would do it. Is everyone else bringing 2 CCBs to any tourney game?

It's still worth bringing, the 3++ on the chariot is never going to happen outside of bullshitland and no serious competitive player ever discussed the CCB with the assumption that it would.

You can find the lists that ranked high on previous tournaments online.

It's not bullshitland, unless you consider the way in which chariots are being handled in the Space Wolves codex to be bullshitland. My approach is to play the Necron chariot in the manner that the Space Wolves codex has clarified that chariots are to be played. RAW and RAI is clear here. The fact that there are TOs who are still playing largely according to 6th and making small conservative steps to 7th edition (to keep attendance high) does not impact a discussion of RAW and RAI, since it is always within a TOs power to house rule anyway.

So, Morgoth, as evidenced in other threads and this one, your input is more emotional and irrational than anything else and is of little value to rules or tactical discussions. I suggest you bring less emotion and more reason and rationality to your posts.

col_impact wrote:

It's not bullshitland, unless you consider the way in which chariots are being handled in the Space Wolves codex to be bullshitland. My approach is to play the Necron chariot in the manner that the Space Wolves codex has clarified that chariots are to be played. RAW and RAI is clear here. The fact that there are TOs who are still playing largely according to 6th and making small conservative steps to 7th edition (to keep attendance high) does not impact a discussion of RAW and RAI, since it is always within a TOs power to house rule anyway.

So, Morgoth, as evidenced in other threads and this one, your input is more emotional and irrational than anything else and is of little value to rules or tactical discussions. I suggest you bring less emotion and more reason and rationality to your posts.

I don't think you know what that word means.

TOs judged the 3++ that way because that's the only judgment that made sense.
If you want to go against that because you'd rather have yet another unfair advantage on the already very broken chariot unit - which you only started taking since the rules for it were broken with v7, from the number of HoW hits, to the shooting attack allocation, to the dual HP pool, ...
Go ahead. But don't pretend it's fair or anything short of RAW abuse.

Space Wolves are a very separate case, they have been written for v7, after v7, with full knowledge of the effects of RAW.
Using the SW example to justify your CCB 3++ transfer is not logical, it's just taking any justification you can find to your conclusion.

Perhaps it is emotion that is making you see that 3++ transfer to the barge as fair.

morgoth wrote:

col_impact wrote:

It's not bullshitland, unless you consider the way in which chariots are being handled in the Space Wolves codex to be bullshitland. My approach is to play the Necron chariot in the manner that the Space Wolves codex has clarified that chariots are to be played. RAW and RAI is clear here. The fact that there are TOs who are still playing largely according to 6th and making small conservative steps to 7th edition (to keep attendance high) does not impact a discussion of RAW and RAI, since it is always within a TOs power to house rule anyway.

So, Morgoth, as evidenced in other threads and this one, your input is more emotional and irrational than anything else and is of little value to rules or tactical discussions. I suggest you bring less emotion and more reason and rationality to your posts.

I don't think you know what that word means.

TOs judged the 3++ that way because that's the only judgment that made sense.
If you want to go against that because you'd rather have yet another unfair advantage on the already very broken chariot unit - which you only started taking since the rules for it were broken with v7, from the number of HoW hits, to the shooting attack allocation, to the dual HP pool, ...
Go ahead. But don't pretend it's fair or anything short of RAW abuse.

Space Wolves are a very separate case, they have been written for v7, after v7, with full knowledge of the effects of RAW.
Using the SW example to justify your CCB 3++ transfer is not logical, it's just taking any justification you can find to your conclusion.

Perhaps it is emotion that is making you see that 3++ transfer to the barge as fair.

Your premise is flawed. Please show how the Necron chariot is more broken than the comparably costed Riptide, Wraithknight, Chapter Master on a bike, or Logan Grimnar on a chariot (leave alone a comparison with various deathstars or power units in the tournament scene). You are making a problem where there is no problem. The Necron chariot is not broken so we don't need to predispose ourselves to stamp out any minor buffs that pop in rules discussions.

If you want to see broken, look at the Wave Serpent. That is broken. The Wave Serpent is warping tournaments. The Necron chariot is not.

As stated above, my opinion on the 3++ save for the chariot has changed. At first I saw the 3++ save for the chariot as an easter egg and an artifact of a 5th edition codex in a 7th edition game. However, the Space Wolves codex made it clear that the 7th edition Necron codex is actually 100% correct as provided. The Space Wolves codex made it clear that invul saves, deep strike abilitites, and IC confer to the chariot (unless line item blocked). I have the weight of GW rules behind me. You have a predisposed view of the Necron chariot as broken fueling your discourse. If you can prove that the necron Chariot is broken (ie by showing how it is warping tournaments) then you might have a case for power level editing against RAW and RAI. Otherwise you are making a problem where there is none.

col_impact wrote:

Your premise is flawed. Please show how the Necron chariot is more broken than the comparably costed Riptide, Wraithknight, Chapter Master on a bike, or Logan Grimnar on a chariot (leave alone a comparison with various deathstars or power units in the tournament scene). You are making a problem where there is no problem. The Necron chariot is not broken so we don't need to predispose ourselves to stamp out any minor buffs that pop in rules discussions.

If you want to see broken, look at the Wave Serpent. That is broken. The Wave Serpent is warping tournaments. The Necron chariot is not.

The CCB is now the default Necron HQ, has another AV13 on the board, pretty sure it warps the Necron power level a good deal.
Necron players take less Night Scythes and Annihilation Barges because of it. If that's not a telltale sign of "this gak's awesome", I don't know what it is.

The Wave Serpent is not warping tournaments and never has.

Up until Nova, the only thing Eldar that warped tournaments were Seerstar, BeastStar with WS support. Not WS with deathstar support, the other way around, the deathstar made the game, and the WS completed it nicely.

Now if you want to look into the future, I'll just wait and see.



The chariot is broken because its rules are slowed. The fact that you can decide on which target the shots land is abnormal and gives it abnormal resilience, same for the separate HP/W pools, it doesn't make sense either.
Even if it were not competitive, it would need a fix.

It's not your fault, just GW completely messed up when they wrote chariot rules.


Either way, right now it's CCBlord or die, and that will make the next codex nerf CCBlords 99% sure, because that's how things are done in the GWverse.
I would rather have the chariot rules fixed, but that's hoping far too much.

morgoth wrote:

The Wave Serpent is not warping tournaments and never has.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/5783/united-against-the-wave-serpent

morgoth wrote:

The chariot is broken because its rules are slowed. The fact that you can decide on which target the shots land is abnormal and gives it abnormal resilience, same for the separate HP/W pools, it doesn't make sense either.
Even if it were not competitive, it would need a fix.

This way of handling chariots is coming straight from the 7th edition rule book. You seem to be having a problem with its newness more than anything else. Yup this is a new mechanic in a game where new mechanics are introduced from time to time. No need for a fix.

You have failed to show the necron chariot is broken. Moreover, you are revealing that your trouble with the necron chariot is coming more from your uncomfortability with the newness of its mechanics than anything else. Basically, your knee-jerk conservative opinion on the matter has no bearing on a serious discussion of the matter.

morgoth wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Your premise is flawed. Please show how the Necron chariot is more broken than the comparably costed Riptide, Wraithknight, Chapter Master on a bike, or Logan Grimnar on a chariot (leave alone a comparison with various deathstars or power units in the tournament scene). You are making a problem where there is no problem. The Necron chariot is not broken so we don't need to predispose ourselves to stamp out any minor buffs that pop in rules discussions.

If you want to see broken, look at the Wave Serpent. That is broken. The Wave Serpent is warping tournaments. The Necron chariot is not.

The CCB is now the default Necron HQ, has another AV13 on the board, pretty sure it warps the Necron power level a good deal.
Necron players take less Night Scythes and Annihilation Barges because of it. If that's not a telltale sign of "this gak's awesome", I don't know what it is.

The Wave Serpent is not warping tournaments and never has.

Up until Nova, the only thing Eldar that warped tournaments were Seerstar, BeastStar with WS support. Not WS with deathstar support, the other way around, the deathstar made the game, and the WS completed it nicely.

Now if you want to look into the future, I'll just wait and see.



The chariot is broken because its rules are slowed. The fact that you can decide on which target the shots land is abnormal and gives it abnormal resilience, same for the separate HP/W pools, it doesn't make sense either.
Even if it were not competitive, it would need a fix.

It's not your fault, just GW completely messed up when they wrote chariot rules.


Either way, right now it's CCBlord or die, and that will make the next codex nerf CCBlords 99% sure, because that's how things are done in the GWverse.
I would rather have the chariot rules fixed, but that's hoping far too much.

NOVA was won by an Eldar player with 5 Wave Serpents on the table. 6th place had 6 of them on the table. 4th had a single CCB and lost to Eldar and Tau. Eldar is by and far the most dominant Codex in the game at the moment, and you complaining about one model that requires at least 240 points to be effective and still has counters (and can't join any unit to boot) isn't going to change that fact.

Requizen wrote:

NOVA was won by an Eldar player with 5 Wave Serpents on the table. 6th place had 6 of them on the table. 4th had a single CCB and lost to Eldar and Tau. Eldar is by and far the most dominant Codex in the game at the moment, and you complaining about one model that requires at least 240 points to be effective and still has counters (and can't join any unit to boot) isn't going to change that fact.

FYI, according the RAW and RAI, the bargeLord can join units (just do a comparative reading of the necron chariot, the chaos chariot, and the space wolves chariot and you will see). However, since it does not get Look Out Sir and no other IC can join the unit, its a very minor buff.

Requizen wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Up until Nova, the only thing Eldar that warped tournaments were Seerstar, BeastStar with WS support. Not WS with deathstar support, the other way around, the deathstar made the game, and the WS completed it nicely.

NOVA was won by an Eldar player with 5 Wave Serpents on the table. 6th place had 6 of them on the table. 4th had a single CCB and lost to Eldar and Tau. Eldar is by and far the most dominant Codex in the game at the moment, and you complaining about one model that requires at least 240 points to be effective and still has counters (and can't join any unit to boot) isn't going to change that fact.

NOVA was won by a player who won a lot of tournaments before that, thanks to tactical versatility in his choice of units, all of which were perfectly adapted to the NOVA terrain (ghostwalk matrix no holofields, Night Spinners, etc.).

Now, the guy who should have won NOVA, 93% of the time at least, was Thomas Donslund, with a far more powerful build of Iyanden Beast Star, for which the combo failed to materialize in his last game.
That's deserved of course, because riding the spell-luck tide is bound to result in such situations.

Most of the lists that did well were based on such deathstars, all of the lists that did well took advantage of the NOVA terrain, which clearly is a godsend to a mobile army, therefore favoring Eldar even before army lists are written.

The Necron there was 720 points Orks and spamming the flyers iirc, so yeah he did pretty good, with an unexpected allied formation and the usual Necron stuff that works well.

The fact remains that the vast majority of the Eldar wins that you can see in those tournaments is SeerStar or BeastStar.
That they would not have happened without is still unknown, but to me, Tony Kopach and his NOVA tailored list is a clear outlier.



Oh and, I have no problem with the power level of the CCB, my problem is with the bs rules.
They're even dumber than me getting WK cover saves by having a foot in cover.
I want them nerfed mostly because I don't like the idea of people taking that unit only because v7 made those rules ridiculous.
If they're nerfed, Necrons will turn to other HQ choices and I won't have to look at that turd and say "hey, how would you like another S10AP2 shot in your face, mr. chariotPants ?" - chariot pants doesn't even sound good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:

The Wave Serpent is not warping tournaments and never has.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/5783/united-against-the-wave-serpent

Oh I read that article alright, it's full of junk.

I don't know if the guy who wrote it even realizes just how wrong some of his advice is.

No surprise though, there are a few people @ ToF who just post random crap.

morgoth wrote:

Requizen wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Up until Nova, the only thing Eldar that warped tournaments were Seerstar, BeastStar with WS support. Not WS with deathstar support, the other way around, the deathstar made the game, and the WS completed it nicely.

NOVA was won by an Eldar player with 5 Wave Serpents on the table. 6th place had 6 of them on the table. 4th had a single CCB and lost to Eldar and Tau. Eldar is by and far the most dominant Codex in the game at the moment, and you complaining about one model that requires at least 240 points to be effective and still has counters (and can't join any unit to boot) isn't going to change that fact.

NOVA was won by a player who won a lot of tournaments before that, thanks to tactical versatility in his choice of units, all of which were perfectly adapted to the NOVA terrain (ghostwalk matrix no holofields, Night Spinners, etc.).

Now, the guy who should have won NOVA, 93% of the time at least, was Thomas Donslund, with a far more powerful build of Iyanden Beast Star, for which the combo failed to materialize in his last game.
That's deserved of course, because riding the spell-luck tide is bound to result in such situations.

Most of the lists that did well were based on such deathstars, all of the lists that did well took advantage of the NOVA terrain, which clearly is a godsend to a mobile army, therefore favoring Eldar even before army lists are written.

The Necron there was 720 points Orks and spamming the flyers iirc, so yeah he did pretty good, with an unexpected allied formation and the usual Necron stuff that works well.

The fact remains that the vast majority of the Eldar wins that you can see in those tournaments is SeerStar or BeastStar.
That they would not have happened without is still unknown, but to me, Tony Kopach and his NOVA tailored list is a clear outlier.



Oh and, I have no problem with the power level of the CCB, my problem is with the bs rules.
They're even dumber than me getting WK cover saves by having a foot in cover.
I want them nerfed mostly because I don't like the idea of people taking that unit only because v7 made those rules ridiculous.
If they're nerfed, Necrons will turn to other HQ choices and I won't have to look at that turd and say "hey, how would you like another S10AP2 shot in your face, mr. chariotPants ?" - chariot pants doesn't even sound good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:

The Wave Serpent is not warping tournaments and never has.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/5783/united-against-the-wave-serpent

Oh I read that article alright, it's full of junk.

I don't know if the guy who wrote it even realizes just how wrong some of his advice is.

No surprise though, there are a few people @ ToF who just post random crap.

Uh no. He has statistics to back his article up. The person trying to push his junky opinion on others is you. Your opinion falls directly against the statistically verifiable dominance of Wave Serpents. Please explain why we should ignore statistics.

col_impact wrote:
Uh no. He has statistics to back his article up. The person trying to push his junky opinion on others is you.

Yeah sure.

Serpent Killing Tactic #2: Force Their Shields

Wave Serpents have an interesting problem that a lot of people seem to forget: They have two greatly different range bands. With their most common equipment, Wave Serpents have a Scatter Laser with 36″ range, a Shuriken Cannon with 24″ range, and their Serpent Shields with 60″ range. The weapons on the Serpent snowball, with the hit from the Scatter Laser twin-linking everything else, so therein lies an interesting opportunity. If you can force a Wave Serpent to use its Serpent shield because you’re able to outrange the lesser guns, you’ve given yourself an opportunity to put some pressure on the now much more vulnerable gunship. A few units can do this better than others: Dark Eldar vehicles with Night Shields, Skyrays, Manticores, etc. The key is understanding that Wave Serpents are a fast skimmer, so not only do you need to outrange the 36″ Scatter Laser, but also their 6-12″ of movement as well. This, of course, is easier said than done on a board that’s only 6′ x 4′, but with the right scenarios and firing lane maneuvers, it can be done.

1. The Scatter Laser is on a turret at the back of the WS, it only really has 34-33" range at most.
2. The Shuriken Canon is on the hull, it only really has 23-22" range at most. This is critical with regards to 12" movement, 24" charge threat bubble units.
3. Shooting the Serpent Shield from outside 34" happens once in a blue moon. It means losing most of your damage output, and your twin-link.
4. 6-12" of movement, outranging the Wave Serpent. That's ridiculous. You don't outrange a WS, you track it and you murder it. trying to outrange it smells of noob.

That's just one third, the rest is full of just as much nonsense.

The one big threat to Wave Serpents is assault. Assault from anything, even a TAC marine squad will melt Wave Serpents. Even the turn after it landed with a drop pod, at which time it rapid fired in the rear of that Wave Serpent.

The other big thing about Wave Serpents is that they only dish out S6/7 AP nothing shots, meaning they don't kill MEQ or TEQ very effectively, meaning if that's all you throw at them, you will have a build autowin.

That guy does not know what a Wave Serpent is or how its played, he has access to all the ToF statistics but he can't play WS and he can't play against WS.

Telling you to get "ignores cover" units is playing the WS game, offering high point low resilience units to let the WS (and its cargo) make their points back in an instant. Not only that but those units are usually taking up important slots, which you'd rather use on being TAC.