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morgoth wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Uh no. He has statistics to back his article up. The person trying to push his junky opinion on others is you.

Yeah sure.

Serpent Killing Tactic #2: Force Their Shields

Wave Serpents have an interesting problem that a lot of people seem to forget: They have two greatly different range bands. With their most common equipment, Wave Serpents have a Scatter Laser with 36″ range, a Shuriken Cannon with 24″ range, and their Serpent Shields with 60″ range. The weapons on the Serpent snowball, with the hit from the Scatter Laser twin-linking everything else, so therein lies an interesting opportunity. If you can force a Wave Serpent to use its Serpent shield because you’re able to outrange the lesser guns, you’ve given yourself an opportunity to put some pressure on the now much more vulnerable gunship. A few units can do this better than others: Dark Eldar vehicles with Night Shields, Skyrays, Manticores, etc. The key is understanding that Wave Serpents are a fast skimmer, so not only do you need to outrange the 36″ Scatter Laser, but also their 6-12″ of movement as well. This, of course, is easier said than done on a board that’s only 6′ x 4′, but with the right scenarios and firing lane maneuvers, it can be done.

1. The Scatter Laser is on a turret at the back of the WS, it only really has 34-33" range at most.
2. The Shuriken Canon is on the hull, it only really has 23-22" range at most. This is critical with regards to 12" movement, 24" charge threat bubble units.
3. Shooting the Serpent Shield from outside 34" happens once in a blue moon. It means losing most of your damage output, and your twin-link.
4. 6-12" of movement, outranging the Wave Serpent. That's ridiculous. You don't outrange a WS, you track it and you murder it. trying to outrange it smells of noob.

That's just one third, the rest is full of just as much nonsense.

The one big threat to Wave Serpents is assault. Assault from anything, even a TAC marine squad will melt Wave Serpents. Even the turn after it landed with a drop pod, at which time it rapid fired in the rear of that Wave Serpent.

The other big thing about Wave Serpents is that they only dish out S6/7 AP nothing shots, meaning they don't kill MEQ or TEQ very effectively, meaning if that's all you throw at them, you will have a build autowin.

That guy does not know what a Wave Serpent is or how its played, he has access to all the ToF statistics but he can't play WS and he can't play against WS.

Telling you to get "ignores cover" units is playing the WS game, offering high point low resilience units to let the WS (and its cargo) make their points back in an instant. Not only that but those units are usually taking up important slots, which you'd rather use on being TAC.

I get that you're an upset Eldar player, but this isn't the thread for you to stand on your soapbox and tell people how much you hate their unit and defend what is almost unanimously agreed to be one of the best models in the entire game. You can make a new post about how much you hate the CCB and how it keeps you up at night.

Requizen wrote:

I get that you're an upset Eldar player, but this isn't the thread for you to stand on your soapbox and tell people how much you hate their unit and defend what is almost unanimously agreed to be one of the best models in the entire game. You can make a new post about how much you hate the CCB and how it keeps you up at night.

I'm just answering that guy you know.

And sharing my opinion that the CCB will get the nerf bat.

What are your expectations on that new codex ?

morgoth wrote:
The one big threat to Wave Serpents is assault. Assault from anything, even a TAC marine squad will melt Wave Serpents. Even the turn after it landed with a drop pod, at which time it rapid fired in the rear of that Wave Serpent.

How do you propose Necrons, predominately a shooty race, get into CC with it?

Scarabs, Wraiths or a CCB (doesn't even need to charge) all can catch up and annihilate it

 IHateNids wrote:
Scarabs, Wraiths or a CCB (doesn't even need to charge) all can catch up and annihilate it

I can agree with the CCB and maybe the Wraiths, but Scarabs? Wouldn't they be Insta-killed? I guess a 210 (min) model wiping out 75 points has a trade off in the long run

10 Scarabs run to 150 points, and a Serpent runs to 210 decked out.

While yes, they are insta-gibbed by all the weapons the Serpent totes, the Serpent would have to not move to bring them all to bear. If that happens, if even a single scarab survives, and they can take armour against the shield and scatter laser, the odds show that the Serpent is most likely dead by the end of the next turn.

 IHateNids wrote:
10 Scarabs run to 150 points, and a Serpent runs to 210 decked out.

While yes, they are insta-gibbed by all the weapons the Serpent totes, the Serpent would have to not move to bring them all to bear. If that happens, if even a single scarab survives, and they can take armour against the shield and scatter laser, the odds show that the Serpent is most likely dead by the end of the next turn.

Scarabs are awesome at hopping around and hiding out of LoS and are most often not the priority target. Run them up, hugging LoS, with other higher priority targets drawing fire.

The CCB will most certainly get nerfed. You guys can't seriously expect it to keep the 3++.

It shouldn't even have the 3++ rules wise. The phase shifter is on the overlord, not the CCB.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The CCB will most certainly get nerfed. You guys can't seriously expect it to keep the 3++.

Logan Grimnar has 2+,4++ (on rider and chariot), Eternal Warrior, 4 wounds, 3 force glanced hull points on av 12, WS 7, 4 rending S5 + 5 S8 AP2 attacks. The only way CCB keeps up with that damage output is by banking hard on MSS and having 3++. So look again at Grimnar and play a battle out against those two. Heck, considering Grimnar, you could almost expect an overall buff (especially if MSS gets nerfed).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It shouldn't even have the 3++ rules wise. The phase shifter is on the overlord, not the CCB.

Check the rules on phase shifter. Check the rules on chariots and how they are defined. Check the Space Wolves codex for how to handle Invul saves from relics, USR from wargear (like deep strike from Terminator armour).

Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

You can fully kit out a bargeLord and get them equal or similar in points. Logan is 320. A competition kitted out bargeLord is 255-285 and you can fill up the points differential with arrow, phylactery, etc.

The easiest way to keep on top of all these codexes is to use BattleScribe.

Your argument seems to be that an invul save on a chariot is outrageous. Well, the existence of Logan directly disagrees with that summation.

redacted

A chariot is treated as one model, the model purchases the phase shifter. The CCB is wargear, as much as the Warscythe. That is RAW.

col_impact wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

You can fully kit out a bargeLord and get them equal or similar in points. Logan is 320. A competition kitted out bargeLord is 255-285 and you can fill up the points differential with arrow, phylactery, etc.

The easiest way to keep on top of all these codexes is to use BattleScribe.

Your argument seems to be that an invul save on a chariot is outrageous. Well, the existence of Logan directly disagrees with that summation.

What makes the CCB effective is the area denial and anti-armor it provides - having a 3++ on top is buff. Being able to squeeze 2+ of them into a list is awesome as well and it still has some neat gimmicks like the Sweeping Attacks. Hm. Thanks for the heads-up, though, while Logan still is more expensive (50-70 pts), they aren't that far apart.

col_impact wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

You can fully kit out a bargeLord and get them equal or similar in points. Logan is 320. A competition kitted out bargeLord is 255-285 and you can fill up the points differential with arrow, phylactery, etc.

The easiest way to keep on top of all these codexes is to use BattleScribe.

Your argument seems to be that an invul save on a chariot is outrageous. Well, the existence of Logan directly disagrees with that summation.

One can argue that it is easier to kill Logan than it is to kill a bargelord. AV13 vs AV12. Lack of MSS and only a 4++ on Logan means that he usually won't survive as long as a bargelord against many foes.

More importantly, Logan cannot get back up on a 4+.....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BTW, here are some stats for you. How many melta shots (from marines) does it take to kill Logan versus a bargelord? Assuming all shots are allocated on the characters as opposed to the chariots:

Logan (4W, 4++) = 14.4 shots

Bargelord (3W, 3++) = 16.2 shots


Thus, against AP1/2 non-S10 shots, the bargelord is slightly more resilient, requiring 1.8 more shots to down than Logan.

 jy2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

You can fully kit out a bargeLord and get them equal or similar in points. Logan is 320. A competition kitted out bargeLord is 255-285 and you can fill up the points differential with arrow, phylactery, etc.

The easiest way to keep on top of all these codexes is to use BattleScribe.

Your argument seems to be that an invul save on a chariot is outrageous. Well, the existence of Logan directly disagrees with that summation.

One can argue that it is easier to kill Logan than it is to kill a bargelord. AV13 vs AV12. Lack of MSS and only a 4++ on Logan means that he usually won't survive as long as a bargelord against many foes.

More importantly, Logan cannot get back up on a 4+.....

People are hard countering the bargeLord by instant killing him or tarpitting. The smash attack of any monstrous creature can insta gib the bargeLord. You can't instant kill Logan (outside of a D weapon) and you can't tarpit him anywhere nearly as easily. Logan's damage output is much greater than the bargeLord and he can plow through most any tarpit. He has 9 attacks base! And pile-in shenanigans! Plus, once you take the quantum shields down, the bargeLord goes down REALLY fast so it's not like the bargeLord has a firm AV13 compared to Logan's actually immutable and glance-only AV12. Those quantum shields do go down. The bargeLord relies heavily on MSS in CC to keep tactically effective and good opponents are able to minimize the impact of MSS - further leveling the comparison when dealing with good opponents. Sure the bargeLord can get up on a 4+ with 1 hit point but that's just FNP activated on a wound that would kill. Reanimation is misperceived as stronger than it actually is. Put the bargeLord up against a wraithknight and grimnar up against a wraithknight and see who comes out victorious. Put a bargeLord and grimnar up against blobs of anything and see who comes out victorious.

As you note, the bargeLord has a modest edge against Logan in terms of survivability until we get to weapons that instant kill, S10, or CC attacks with armourbane or tankhunter or smash or their ilk, or attacks that can hit the bargeLord from behind. Once we get into weapons like that, the bargeLord goes down really fast and hard and Logan shows his true resilience against just about anything you throw against him. Logan's damage output is 3-4 times as much as the bargeLords! This is huge! Not only does this increased damage output boost his overall survivability by removing threats, this enables Logan to plow through the tarpits that would effectively "kill" the bargeLord. Even if S10 or cc attacks with armourbane are rare, just about any army with a good general can tarpit the bargeLord.

Plus, something that is hard to quantify is Logan's ability to access his full 7 effective wounds (4 wounds + 3 hull points). If someone shoots a s9 (or s8) attack on the bargeLord, you pretty much have to choose to tank that on the rider profile since you can get penetrated, which will take the AV13 down and threaten an instant kill. This means you seldom have access to more than 3 effective wounds. Logan can easily tank s8 or s9 or s10 on the vehicle profile since without fail he only ever risks 1 hull point. Ever. With Logan you have access to 7 wounds always. The bargeLord on the other hand can go down in 1 hit!

 IHateNids wrote:
10 Scarabs run to 150 points, and a Serpent runs to 210 decked out.

While yes, they are insta-gibbed by all the weapons the Serpent totes, the Serpent would have to not move to bring them all to bear. If that happens, if even a single scarab survives, and they can take armour against the shield and scatter laser, the odds show that the Serpent is most likely dead by the end of the next turn.

Listen, I play Wave Serpents, and I tell you two WS will get rid of the 10 scarabs unless they have ruins + night fighting stealth.
I know you don't get it, but I calculated it, I playtested it, try to run the numbers, I think you'll get it. Instant Death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:

morgoth wrote:
The one big threat to Wave Serpents is assault. Assault from anything, even a TAC marine squad will melt Wave Serpents. Even the turn after it landed with a drop pod, at which time it rapid fired in the rear of that Wave Serpent.

How do you propose Necrons, predominately a shooty race, get into CC with it?

That part is simple, no matter the army.

If you want CC, you just need to restrict your opponent.

As a Necron, that means advancing on him from the front, and invasion beaming warriors up close.

For a shooty race, every model will still get 2 S4 attacks on the charge, base troops glance on a 6.

col_impact wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

You can fully kit out a bargeLord and get them equal or similar in points. Logan is 320. A competition kitted out bargeLord is 255-285 and you can fill up the points differential with arrow, phylactery, etc.

The easiest way to keep on top of all these codexes is to use BattleScribe.

Your argument seems to be that an invul save on a chariot is outrageous. Well, the existence of Logan directly disagrees with that summation.

One can argue that it is easier to kill Logan than it is to kill a bargelord. AV13 vs AV12. Lack of MSS and only a 4++ on Logan means that he usually won't survive as long as a bargelord against many foes.

More importantly, Logan cannot get back up on a 4+.....

People are hard countering the bargeLord by instant killing him or tarpitting. The smash attack of any monstrous creature can insta gib the bargeLord. You can't instant kill Logan (outside of a D weapon) and you can't tarpit him anywhere nearly as easily. Logan's damage output is much greater than the bargeLord and he can plow through most any tarpit. He has 9 attacks base! And pile-in shenanigans! Plus, once you take the quantum shields down, the bargeLord goes down REALLY fast so it's not like the bargeLord has a firm AV13 compared to Logan's actually immutable and glance-only AV12. Those quantum shields do go down. The bargeLord relies heavily on MSS in CC to keep tactically effective and good opponents are able to minimize the impact of MSS - further leveling the comparison when dealing with good opponents. Sure the bargeLord can get up on a 4+ with 1 hit point but that's just FNP activated on a wound that would kill. Reanimation is misperceived as stronger than it actually is. Put the bargeLord up against a wraithknight and grimnar up against a wraithknight and see who comes out victorious. Put a bargeLord and grimnar up against blobs of anything and see who comes out victorious.

As you note, the bargeLord has a modest edge against Logan in terms of survivability until we get to weapons that instant kill, S10, or CC attacks with armourbane or tankhunter or smash or their ilk, or attacks that can hit the bargeLord from behind. Once we get into weapons like that, the bargeLord goes down really fast and hard and Logan shows his true resilience against just about anything you throw against him. Logan's damage output is 3-4 times as much as the bargeLords! This is huge! Not only does this increased damage output boost his overall survivability by removing threats, this enables Logan to plow through the tarpits that would effectively "kill" the bargeLord. Even if S10 or cc attacks with armourbane are rare, just about any army with a good general can tarpit the bargeLord.

Plus, something that is hard to quantify is Logan's ability to access his full 7 effective wounds (4 wounds + 3 hull points). If someone shoots a s9 (or s8) attack on the bargeLord, you pretty much have to choose to tank that on the rider profile since you can get penetrated, which will take the AV13 down and threaten an instant kill. This means you seldom have access to more than 3 effective wounds. Logan can easily tank s8 or s9 or s10 on the vehicle profile since without fail he only ever risks 1 hull point. Ever. With Logan you have access to 7 wounds always. The bargeLord on the other hand can go down in 1 hit!

Actually, it's more like 6 Wounds for Logan. As soon as he loses 2 HP's from the chariot, he's going to have to start allocating wounds to himself and not his ride.

Not a lot of races can insta-kill a bargelord. Basically from range, you've got wraithknights and vindicators as probably the most common units. It's only when you get to assault where S10 matters, that is, if the attacker can get pass Mindshackles. And Smash attacks isn't reliable at all. You need to pass MSS, hit and then get pass the Lord's 3++. Not very reliable indeed, unless you are a dreadknight or wraithknight.

Don't have the SW codex with me, but how does Logan have 9 attacks base?

4+ chance to get back up is better than no chance to get back up once your wounds go down to 0. On top of that, the bargelord could potentially get back up multiple times. Ironically enough, that is how he can get out of tarpit situations sometimes.

If you are going up against a tarpit unit, then just get out of the way. The bargelord has a specific purpose. He can tarpit the tarpit unit if the unit costs more than him. Otherwise, just zoom him 30" into the opponent's backfield to deal with units that are vulnerable to him while softening up the tarpit unit with a bunch of teslas/gauss shooting from the rest of the army.

Here's a better test. Instead of pitting a bargelord up against a wraithknight or blob and instead of pitting Logan up against a unit of 5 assault terminators or Daemon Prince, just pit the bargelord up against Logan and see who kicks whose ass. Haha....

Insta-killing weapons have a 50% or greater chance to be deflected back to the attacker thanks to Mindshackles. As for Logan, he just has to take it.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

morgoth wrote:
The one big threat to Wave Serpents is assault. Assault from anything, even a TAC marine squad will melt Wave Serpents. Even the turn after it landed with a drop pod, at which time it rapid fired in the rear of that Wave Serpent.

How do you propose Necrons, predominately a shooty race, get into CC with it?

That part is simple, no matter the army.

If you want CC, you just need to restrict your opponent.

As a Necron, that means advancing on him from the front, and invasion beaming warriors up close.

For a shooty race, every model will still get 2 S4 attacks on the charge, base troops glance on a 6.

No Necron player in their right minds would beam warriors down onto the table in the hopes to assault.....unless it is on Turn 5 and within claiming range of an objective and the game continues and they survive their opponent's shooting the next turn.

So... Is anyone rocking wraiths in 7th. Just to get back to the less contentious part of my question. I stopped playing them at the end of 6th as I found the weight of small arms fire around was biting me on the ass. I've noticed more CC in my local meta, but not sure if this is a local flux or something I can expect in a competitive environment...

I still run them once in a while, though if I take them, I also tend to take a Destroyer Lord as well as 1 bargelord. They can be still effective, and they do address one of the weaknesses of the bargelord, which is his lack of volume-of-attacks.

I also have another list where I run 2 bargelords and 2x5 wraiths as distraction units.

morgoth wrote:


As a Necron, that means advancing on him from the front, and invasion beaming warriors up close.

Who does not remember the most valid Necron tactic there is? Drowning his enemy in metal corpse? Space Marines tend to run in fear from a unit of 15 I2 A1 enemies.

 jy2 wrote:

No Necron player in their right minds would beam warriors down onto the table in the hopes to assault.....unless it is on Turn 5 and within claiming range of an objective and the game continues and they survive their opponent's shooting the next turn.

It's just another tool in the toolbox.

When dropping 65 points of cron warriors takes up valuable board space and presents a threat where there should be none (quasi backfield), you open up other options. Of course, after 36" movement, they're going to snap shot, but the Scythe itself is not.

Of course, counting on the warriors to win is illusory, this is about restricting enemy movement to facilitate CC.

Facilitate CC for who? Flayed ones? Both of our good assault units are very fast and very durable. You don't need to drop 5 warriors for wraiths or CCBs to punch something because anything that 5 warriors would actually be in the way of won't be getting away from either of those units. Its a waste of 65 points.

I'm interested in the "threat" a unit of 5 Necron Warriors poses. As well as "faciliating CC". For what? The 12'' moving Wraiths?

 jy2 wrote:
I still run them once in a while, though if I take them, I also tend to take a Destroyer Lord as well as 1 bargelord. They can be still effective, and they do address one of the weaknesses of the bargelord, which is his lack of volume-of-attacks.

I also have another list where I run 2 bargelords and 2x5 wraiths as distraction units.

Yep. With a D Lord was what I was thinking.

I suppose my worry is losing half my royal court. A big part of the boon is having two Stormteks in each drop squad and two Despairteks with my Deathmark unit. Really does tend to ensure the end of a knight/centurion unit or whatever it is that I need dead...

On the other hand I think a D Lord plus a CCB OLrod in a list provides a lot of other options. It's a bring your list with your army type of tournament so I don't need to decide till quite close to it.

Listen, I play Wave Serpents, and I tell you two WS will get rid of the 10 scarabs unless they have ruins + night fighting stealth.
I know you don't get it, but I calculated it, I playtested it, try to run the numbers, I think you'll get it. Instant Death.

I'm not exactly sure what point you are making here. 420 points worth of Wave Serpents will kill 150 points worth of Scarabs....grats?

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Listen, I play Wave Serpents, and I tell you two WS will get rid of the 10 scarabs unless they have ruins + night fighting stealth.
I know you don't get it, but I calculated it, I playtested it, try to run the numbers, I think you'll get it. Instant Death.

I'm not exactly sure what point you are making here. 420 points worth of Wave Serpents will kill 150 points worth of Scarabs....grats?

In one turn, making the scarabs "not a good counter" to WS.

yeah...but for the price of those WS you could almost have 30 Scarabs...

 NecronLord3 wrote:
A chariot is treated as one model, the model purchases the phase shifter. The CCB is wargear, as much as the Warscythe. That is RAW.

Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly.

I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb.