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Kangodo wrote:
Oh my freaking God..
How many times do we have to explain how even a non-Sergeant can absorb MSS if you just activate it BEFORE the challenge?

You know in 7ed they remove the part about challenges being only in B2B with with each other? So now being in a challenge has no effect on randomly determining who takes the MSS test.

Hey guys. Anyone got an opinion on these two lists:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/618255.page#7264697

I've got a tourney this weekend and, due to work commitments, I'm going in a bit blind. Everything is painted. A lot is not play tested. (Only used CCB 2 times and he didn't have the phase shifter - never run them in pairs).

Anyway, if my fellow Phaerons have a minute to glance over the list, that'd be great.

morgoth wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Taking mindshackle scarabs out of the equation, the math lines up like this . . .

Taking everything good from Necrons away from them lines up like this ... autowin against them.

Yes, there are counters to MSS, but in general they will cost you about 150 points (fast squad with a sarge to absorb the challenge) and still require you to avoid the charge from a 12"+2d6" model.

Even just spending a turn to line up perfectly or to avoid that BargeLord is already making its points back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1. The Bargelord without 3++ transfer is very competitive. The competitive scene proves it.
2. The 3++ does not transfer where it matters, i.e. tournaments.
3. The new dex is here soon.

So please, drop this discussion, and let's go back to something that's actually relevant to the game and not one perverted interpretation of the rules suggested by a player who insists the CCB as played in tournaments is not worth its points.

Your opinion is not relevant in this thread. You have shown in this thread and others that you will argue whatever line of thinking in order to nerf units that threaten your eldar army. This thread is for reasoned discussions only and ones that aren't bent on punishing Necrons.

I am merely presenting RAW and RAI so that Necron players know that they are effectively acquiescing to house rules when they choose to not play the 3++ on the chariot. If anyone wants to counter my RAW and RAI argument feel free to do so. But in my opinion, necron players should be pushing to play it as per RAW and RAI at every available opportunity to get the larger community used to it. I have been playing it that way for a while and there really is no issue. In this case, the community overreacted and corrected a problem that didn't need to be corrected and the wisest course of action is to play the Necron chariot as is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Oh my freaking God..
How many times do we have to explain how even a non-Sergeant can absorb MSS if you just activate it BEFORE the challenge?

You know in 7ed they remove the part about challenges being only in B2B with with each other? So now being in a challenge has no effect on randomly determining who takes the MSS test.

Yes, MSS is easily dealt with by generals who understand the interaction.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Oh my freaking God..
How many times do we have to explain how even a non-Sergeant can absorb MSS if you just activate it BEFORE the challenge?

You know in 7ed they remove the part about challenges being only in B2B with with each other? So now being in a challenge has no effect on randomly determining who takes the MSS test.

I know! But with challenges there is even a small percentage chance your 'big guy' will get MSS'ed by using that trick.

So on the charge: Declare that MSS resolved before challenge and sacrifise a stupid model.
When being charged by Necrons (lol lol lol): Make sure your character is not the only one in B2B during the challenge.
Against non-'single model' units it's kinda of okay.

I don't know if we can trust that they really went over the CCB rules for the FAQ, since it changed the vehicle type to Chariot. Not fast skimmer chariot, just chariot. So RAW it is no longer a fast skimmer and that couldn't possibly be the intended rule. Maybe let common sense play into this phase shifter nonsense

 SmilingKnight wrote:
I don't know if we can trust that they really went over the CCB rules for the FAQ, since it changed the vehicle type to Chariot. Not fast skimmer chariot, just chariot. So RAW it is no longer a fast skimmer and that couldn't possibly be the intended rule. Maybe let common sense play into this phase shifter nonsense

It still is listed fast skimmer, look at the amendments list

 SmilingKnight wrote:
I don't know if we can trust that they really went over the CCB rules for the FAQ, since it changed the vehicle type to Chariot. Not fast skimmer chariot, just chariot. So RAW it is no longer a fast skimmer and that couldn't possibly be the intended rule. Maybe let common sense play into this phase shifter nonsense

Common sense isn't really on your side. The Space Wolves codex shows that chariots can have Invul saves (Grimnar's chariot gets the 4++ of the Belt of Russ) and makes it clear that the USR of the rider and his wargear will confer to the chariot unless blocked (note language used in the handling of the rider's IC and deep strike of the terminator armour).

Moreover, I have shown that a bargeLord with a 3++ applied to the chariot gets a buff but it doesn't make the bargeLord OP. In fact, with that buff he performs at the power level we would expect based on his power level when he is off the barge. For his point investment you are looking at a unit that is still inferior to a WK, riptide, or chapter master, leave alone any comparisons to invisi-stars of various types.

Your argument seems to take as a core premise that GW radically messed up its handling of the necron chariot in the FAQ. My argument is that GW did not mess up in its handling of the chariot in the necron FAQ. If you follow RAW of the necron chariot, it all actually works (and works according to the way chariots have been clarified to work in the Space Wolves codex).

OK, so you think that they didn't mess up the FAQ, therefore you actually believe that CCB isn't a skimmer anymore. So you can't pass over enemy units anymore and the sweep attack rules are what? Just fluff or something?

 SmilingKnight wrote:
OK, so you think that they didn't mess up the FAQ, therefore you actually believe that CCB isn't a skimmer anymore. So you can't pass over enemy units anymore and the sweep attack rules are what? Just fluff or something?

Read the Ammendments section of the necron FAQ. They didn't mess up.

The amendments and the errata differ IN THE SAME DOCUMENT! If that doesn't show it's a flawed document, then what does?

Now you could be right about them wanting a phase shifter to cover 8 times the space it normally would because he's now standing on something, but I'm saying we can't start mashing three books and 2 FAQs together looking for the correct intenstions with this as one of the 5 things because it is clearly messed up

 SmilingKnight wrote:
OK, so you think that they didn't mess up the FAQ, therefore you actually believe that CCB isn't a skimmer anymore. So you can't pass over enemy units anymore and the sweep attack rules are what? Just fluff or something?

It's on the FAQ's FIRST PAGE. Come on.

 SmilingKnight wrote:
The amendments and the errata differ IN THE SAME DOCUMENT! If that doesn't show it's a flawed document, then what does?

Now you could be right about them wanting a phase shifter to cover 8 times the space it normally would because he's now standing on something, but I'm saying we can't start mashing three books and 2 FAQs together looking for the correct intenstions with this as one of the 5 things because it is clearly messed up

Huh? There is no flawed document. You are getting confused in your reading for some reason. The codex went from stating that the Catacomb Command Barge is a "Vehicle" to a "Vehicle (chariot)" Everything is as it should be. The amendments make everything crystal clear and there are no internal contradictions. Not sure how you are botching your reading of it.

In a world where Annihilation Barges weren't ridiculous for their cost, Canoptek Scarabs would probably be the best HS unit, period.

Requizen wrote:
In a world where Annihilation Barges weren't ridiculous for their cost, Canoptek Scarabs would probably be the best HS unit, period.

Canoptek Scarabs are Fast Attack

 adamsouza wrote:

Requizen wrote:
In a world where Annihilation Barges weren't ridiculous for their cost, Canoptek Scarabs would probably be the best HS unit, period.

Canoptek Scarabs are Fast Attack

He likely meant Spyders


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 SmilingKnight wrote:
I don't know if we can trust that they really went over the CCB rules for the FAQ, since it changed the vehicle type to Chariot. Not fast skimmer chariot, just chariot. So RAW it is no longer a fast skimmer and that couldn't possibly be the intended rule. Maybe let common sense play into this phase shifter nonsense

Moreover, I have shown that a bargeLord with a 3++ applied to the chariot gets a buff but it doesn't make the bargeLord OP. In fact, with that buff he performs at the power level we would expect based on his power level when he is off the barge. For his point investment you are looking at a unit that is still inferior to a WK, riptide, or chapter master, leave alone any comparisons to invisi-stars of various types.

Hm. I would beg to differ, and here is my rational argument:

1) Comparing to other units of equivalent cost, he's insane
Assuming he has Weave, MSS, CCB, Warscythe, Phase Shifter, and Res Orb, he's 285. That's alot of points admittedly. However, being able to decide where wounds are allocated is incredibly powerful, as it makes the CCBLord immune to anything s6 or less, and anything with ap3(not s10) will go to the Lord, for a 2+ armor, with 3w. Now, if this was all the CCB had going for it, then yeh I would agree, the Phase Shifter should help the chariot out too, but the Lord can get back up on a 4+, and this isn't limited to once a game either. You literally have a 50% chance to get back your 285 pt model and charge something your turn. Nothing else gets back like and has that amount of durability, and I have almost never heard Cron players complain about this. Most realize how crazy it is.

2) TO's target the CCBLord unfairly
As a Screamerstar player I beg to differ, quite alot actually! For instance, the BAO(whose rules are used by most big tournaments on the west coast) set a 2+ rerollable to become a 2+/4+, limited a unit with multiple Psykers to casting a power once if in a unit, and a few other minor tweaks. Those hurt alot, and even though some will try to debate whether or not those issues were already solved in the BRB, the fact remains that my Daemons became marginally worse. Did I complain, or urge other Daemon players to assert their ability to use their models a certain way? No. I recognized that perhaps it was being FAQ'd because it was too powerful, and played with the slightly toned down version.

In the case of the CCBLord, You can always Jink for a 4+ anyways, which is only slightly worse, and has hardly any negatives for you.

In conclusion: Having a av13 vehicle with a 2+/3++ sv close combat dude on top who gets back up 50% of the time and then complaining about how the TO's ruled a contentious issue not in Cron favor is illogical at best

Yep, Spyders, brain no worky

jathomas2013 wrote:


Hm. I would beg to differ, and here is my rational argument:

1) Comparing to other units of equivalent cost, he's insane
Assuming he has Weave, MSS, CCB, Warscythe, Phase Shifter, and Res Orb, he's 285. That's alot of points admittedly. However, being able to decide where wounds are allocated is incredibly powerful, as it makes the CCBLord immune to anything s6 or less, and anything with ap3(not s10) will go to the Lord, for a 2+ armor, with 3w. Now, if this was all the CCB had going for it, then yeh I would agree, the Phase Shifter should help the chariot out too, but the Lord can get back up on a 4+, and this isn't limited to once a game either. You literally have a 50% chance to get back your 285 pt model and charge something your turn. Nothing else gets back like and has that amount of durability, and I have almost never heard Cron players complain about this. Most realize how crazy it is.

2) TO's target the CCBLord unfairly
As a Screamerstar player I beg to differ, quite alot actually! For instance, the BAO(whose rules are used by most big tournaments on the west coast) set a 2+ rerollable to become a 2+/4+, limited a unit with multiple Psykers to casting a power once if in a unit, and a few other minor tweaks. Those hurt alot, and even though some will try to debate whether or not those issues were already solved in the BRB, the fact remains that my Daemons became marginally worse. Did I complain, or urge other Daemon players to assert their ability to use their models a certain way? No. I recognized that perhaps it was being FAQ'd because it was too powerful, and played with the slightly toned down version.

In the case of the CCBLord, You can always Jink for a 4+ anyways, which is only slightly worse, and has hardly any negatives for you.

In conclusion: Having a av13 vehicle with a 2+/3++ sv close combat dude on top who gets back up 50% of the time and then complaining about how the TO's ruled a contentious issue not in Cron favor is illogical at best

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

However, you need to really provide some comparisons if we are going to talk about how OP the bargeLord is. How does he compare to a Wave Serpent, WK, Riptide, Chapter Master, or Centurion-star? And when you make that comparison take a good look at his damage output and susceptibility to tarpitting. The bargeLord is a top player in the tournament scene but he is not warping it and as you note it is a small step from a 4+ jink to a 3++.

When BAO made their ruling they thought they were making a RAI argument. There is a frontlinegaming radio cast in which they discussed this very matter and which can be dug up to prove that. Let me know if you want me to dig it up for you. I agreed with their line of thinking on that issue until the Space Wolves codex came out and the RAI argument evaporated out from under them. We now have new information about how to handle chariots and TOs need to revisit the matter or they aren't doing their job. What's very important is for players and TOs to understand is there is no longer a RAI argument for taking away the 3++ of the chariot. If TOs want to now institute a power level nerfing of the bargeLord then so be it, but that seems awkward to do, when there are other units like the Wave Serpent which are warping the meta and screaming for a power level edit, and the bargeLord with or without the 3++ on the chariot will not warp the meta.

col_impact wrote:

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

However, you need to really provide some comparisons if we are going to talk about how OP the bargeLord is. How does he compare to a Wave Serpent, WK, Riptide, Chapter Master, or Centurion-star? And when you make that comparison take a good look at his damage output and susceptibility to tarpitting. The bargeLord is a top player in the tournament scene but he is not warping it and as you note it is a small step from a 4+ jink to a 3++.

When BAO made their ruling they thought they were making a RAI argument. There is a frontlinegaming radio cast in which they discussed this very matter and which can be dug up to prove that. Let me know if you want me to dig it up for you. I agreed with their line of thinking on that issue until the Space Wolves codex came out and the RAI argument evaporated out from under them. We now have new information about how to handle chariots and TOs need to revisit the matter or they aren't doing their job. What's very important is for players and TOs to understand is there is no longer a RAI argument for taking away the 3++ of the chariot. If TOs want to now institute a power level nerfing of the bargeLord then so be it, but that seems awkward to do, when there are other units like the Wave Serpent which are warping the meta and screaming for a power level edit, and the bargeLord with or without the 3++ on the chariot will not warp the meta.

Well any of the above comparisons can be relied upon to stay dead. The Bargelord creates a whole new level of paranoia when facing a pair of them because the opponent can no longer say "Got that unit dead, move onto next plan of attack" until the end of the phase. And while I yield that it does not warp the meta of the game, that does not mean it is not a significant power player. Any veteran Cron player can tell you how powerful of an asset the Bargelords are, and besides Destroyer Lords, I haven't seen any other Cron HQ used(except for Zanhdrekh once...did I spell that right?)

I also admit this may be a biased argument, as I had the worst time of dealing with a pair of these monsters.

jathomas2013 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

However, you need to really provide some comparisons if we are going to talk about how OP the bargeLord is. How does he compare to a Wave Serpent, WK, Riptide, Chapter Master, or Centurion-star? And when you make that comparison take a good look at his damage output and susceptibility to tarpitting. The bargeLord is a top player in the tournament scene but he is not warping it and as you note it is a small step from a 4+ jink to a 3++.

When BAO made their ruling they thought they were making a RAI argument. There is a frontlinegaming radio cast in which they discussed this very matter and which can be dug up to prove that. Let me know if you want me to dig it up for you. I agreed with their line of thinking on that issue until the Space Wolves codex came out and the RAI argument evaporated out from under them. We now have new information about how to handle chariots and TOs need to revisit the matter or they aren't doing their job. What's very important is for players and TOs to understand is there is no longer a RAI argument for taking away the 3++ of the chariot. If TOs want to now institute a power level nerfing of the bargeLord then so be it, but that seems awkward to do, when there are other units like the Wave Serpent which are warping the meta and screaming for a power level edit, and the bargeLord with or without the 3++ on the chariot will not warp the meta.

Well any of the above comparisons can be relied upon to stay dead. The Bargelord creates a whole new level of paranoia when facing a pair of them because the opponent can no longer say "Got that unit dead, move onto next plan of attack" until the end of the phase. And while I yield that it does not warp the meta of the game, that does not mean it is not a significant power player. Any veteran Cron player can tell you how powerful of an asset the Bargelords are, and besides Destroyer Lords, I haven't seen any other Cron HQ used(except for Zanhdrekh once...did I spell that right?)

I also admit this may be a biased argument, as I had the worst time of dealing with a pair of these monsters.

Just tarpit them. Their damage output is low.

col_impact wrote:


Just tarpit them. Their damage output is low.

The dilemma is that I play Daemons, Tau, and Eldar. Tau have no "tarpit" unit outside of a Riptide who novas for a 3++. Fail that one turn and man you better pray you passed your LD or else you just let a BargeLord into your ranks. For Eldar, while a Wraithknight is a great tarpit model, he also will kill himself from MSS, especially if two Bargelords get into CC, where the 8 s7 attacks ontop of wounding himself could potentially kill a Wraithknight a turn. And Daemons get mulched by Bargelords unless the Grimoire is on the unit...

So I have now started to shoot the hell outta the Bargelords, hopefully down the Quantaum Shielding(with Tau it's not terribly difficult), then assault them with the Stubborn unit of 2 Commanders, 3 Suits, and 8 Marker Drones. Even if one MSS'es himself, the rest will have the attacks to kill or wound him(if the Onager Gauntlet passed MSS then he would go to the Barge of course). I can hit and run out, shoot stuff, and go right back into combat. So far it's worked very well

I think col_impact has a pretty valid point. Whereas before it was a rather murky RAI argument, with the advent of Logan Grimnar, it's pretty hard to argue against RAI. RAW was always pretty clear at first glance, but a lot of people (myself included as a Necron player) thought, "but is that really RAI? Probably not so I won't play it". Now, it seems more clear that that is RAI, as well as RAW since the precedent has been set (even though it's ironically been set after the case in question). I'm not looking to open up any more of a can of worms by claiming clear RAW, because as is often the case with GW, what seems clear to them is actually anything but. However, to me it always seemed that a line like the one given for the CCB is GW's way of thinking they're writing a "blanket and airtight rule" that just winds up being too vague to be clear.

In any case, it's true that a new codex will surely change a number of things (although I actually doubt the CCB will change much). But bringing the Night Scythe and Annihilation Barge to a more appropriate cost, as well as likely nerfing the Storm-tek nonsense, will more than compensate for a good CCB (who is still incredibly expensive). Once the codex is brought into line with the other more recent codecies, I don't think anyone will be complaining too much. As is, it just seems like everything is going the Necrons' way from the onset of seventh.

As for the idea that the GA has not been seen at too tournament levels, I don't know if that will change unless they get buffed or the Night Scythe gets needed hard, but in casual to moderately competitive play, I think you will see many more once they (inevitably) can carry more than just warriors with the new codex. Admittedly that's just wish listing, but I can't imagine that this won't be implemented.

jathomas2013 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Just tarpit them. Their damage output is low.

The dilemma is that I play Daemons, Tau, and Eldar. Tau have no "tarpit" unit outside of a Riptide who novas for a 3++. Fail that one turn and man you better pray you passed your LD or else you just let a BargeLord into your ranks. For Eldar, while a Wraithknight is a great tarpit model, he also will kill himself from MSS, especially if two Bargelords get into CC, where the 8 s7 attacks ontop of wounding himself could potentially kill a Wraithknight a turn. And Daemons get mulched by Bargelords unless the Grimoire is on the unit...

So I have now started to shoot the hell outta the Bargelords, hopefully down the Quantaum Shielding(with Tau it's not terribly difficult), then assault them with the Stubborn unit of 2 Commanders, 3 Suits, and 8 Marker Drones. Even if one MSS'es himself, the rest will have the attacks to kill or wound him(if the Onager Gauntlet passed MSS then he would go to the Barge of course). I can hit and run out, shoot stuff, and go right back into combat. So far it's worked very well

For those presenting the CCB matchup against Tau and Eldar as a reason for CCBs being OP, I think its safe to say the CCB is probably the best necron unit against those armies as they are focused on shooting while the CCB is a mobile and durable CC unit. But simply because a unit has a good matchup doesn't mean its OP. 80pts of termagants can tarpit a 285pt CCB for an entire game but that doesn't make termagants OP. Lets consider the following two statements:

1. If a CCB gets into CC with a WK and gets its MSS activation off, it can kill a WK in one turn (4 attacks, 5 on the charge and 3 possible from MSS).
2. The WK can kill the CCB in one shot with its 2x H. Wraithcannons before the CCB ever makes it to CC(Explodes! result if taken on barge or ID if taken on rider). Furthermore, even if the CCB makes it into CC, it can still be ID from the WK standard attacks if it passes an MSS which is a 50% chance for a single model (which is the best possible scenario for a model w/ MSS).

If I only say the first the CCB seems overpowered but once you include the second statement, it exposes vulnerabilities which mitigate the impression that the CCB is overpowered. Just like anything, if you present only one side of the argument, of course its easy to make something seem OP but you have to take into account all the factors before trying to cast a judgment. I've only provided two statements but there are so many more factors that play into a unit being "OP" or not.

3. CCB is a CC focused unit. It should be winning CC contests with a WK yet it still can lose to a WK in a single round of CC via ID.
4. The WK has much more killing power than a CCB outside of CC
5. A CCB outfitted w/ the works is 45pts more than a double H. Wraithcannon WK so ideally it should be superior in a 1v1 comparison (assuming one side isn't a direct counter or doesn't have some overwhelming advantage such as having a toughness the other cannot wound)

2 CCBs vs 1 WK in CC can kill it in one turn. Yes, but that is also ~600pts of CC units vs a 240pt shooty unit. I am not claiming that the Necron CCB is or isn't OP. I think that the CCB is undoubtedly a strong model but at ~300 pts, it should be. Those are LOW and superheavy point values. But the question is it is overpowered? How would it stand up to Logan w/ Stormrider (320pts) in a 1v1. What about an Imperial Knight (~280pts)? The list of factors goes on and on but to keep from making this post any more "wall-of-text" than it already is, I'll stop and hope you see my point which is that we should be taking everything into account, not just looking at one aspect and crying "OP" without considering the rest of the factors. Lets try to keep things objective and not make claims simply because "I am a necron player and I want CCBs to be as strong as possible" or "CCBs beat me in our last game and I don't like losing".

What would people say is the best loadout for the Tranny?

I mean besides the "herp derp triple D weapon"

 IHateNids wrote:
What would people say is the best loadout for the Tranny?

I mean besides the "herp derp triple D weapon"

Seismic assault kicks ass and I'm also partial to Sky of Falling Stars. For the third power Transliminal stride is the clear winner.

It's still up for debate, but if allowed Sesmic Assault x2 and T. Slide is the best. And always bring Zandrehk.

I was considering taking Wave & Maelstrom, with either Transliminal Stride or Seismic Shockwave as the other, depending on my opponent (probably Seismic as default)

What is the general opinion on that as a loadout?

I do like Double Seismic Assault, but it makes the C'tan cost almost double his points

 IHateNids wrote:
I was considering taking Wave & Maelstrom, with either Transliminal Stride or Seismic Shockwave as the other, depending on my opponent (probably Seismic as default)

What is the general opinion on that as a loadout?

I do like Double Seismic Assault, but it makes the C'tan cost almost double his points

Some people would frown at taking the same power twice.

Personally I like SoFS because it's an apocalyptic barrage, meaning it allows you to deny cover saves and hit multiple vehicle facings (very effective against IKs- they position their ion shields to stop your Seismic assault and ten you use the SoFS power to land a bunch of S7 hits on their rear facing)

Well, there's only one Knight in our local store at the moment, so I don't find myself facing one very often at all.

A much more frequent target however, is Wraithknights. We have three, with a fourth pending completion, and theres a couple of Nid players as well. As an easy answer to Monstrous Creatures, I thought Wave is best, and I can completely see the value of SoFS over Transdimensional Maelstrom, on top of which it's 5 points cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, a friend just pointed out an article to me: http://spikeybitsblog.com/2014/10/40k-rules-conundrum-new-dark-eldar-meta.html

The Monolith may be safe from the point-blank DS issues

I don't want to wade through the comments on that link,
What's their consensus on deep striking skimmers into enemies?

TLDR If skimmers DS onto enemy/firendly units move them until they are 1" away from being on top.