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col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
My point was there is no way to actually determine what the RAI is so it shouldn't be used at all.

So what do you want to call a rules correction measure that restores the rules environment before things became broken?

Why would I restrict myself to such a specific set ruleset if I'm already changing the rules to begin with? I can change what ever I want.

Having relentless isn't the part that makes Sentry Pylons broken, other things are (such as the poor wording on focused death ray or the artillery rules in general) Why don't I just fix those instead?

You can advocate any kind of fix you want. I am just saying there are different types of fixes that can be employed. Banning Sentry Pylons is a different kind of fix than preventing relentless on Sentry Pylons and we justify them using different rationales.

RAI isn't a rational argument though. If you think it shouldn't have relentless for balance fine, but trying to justify it because you think thats the RAI for in from 6ed is stupid.

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
My point was there is no way to actually determine what the RAI is so it shouldn't be used at all.

So what do you want to call a rules correction measure that restores the rules environment before things became broken?

Why would I restrict myself to such a specific set ruleset if I'm already changing the rules to begin with? I can change what ever I want.

Having relentless isn't the part that makes Sentry Pylons broken, other things are (such as the poor wording on focused death ray or the artillery rules in general) Why don't I just fix those instead?

You can advocate any kind of fix you want. I am just saying there are different types of fixes that can be employed. Banning Sentry Pylons is a different kind of fix than preventing relentless on Sentry Pylons and we justify them using different rationales.

RAI isn't a rational argument though. If you think it shouldn't have relentless for balance fine, but trying to justify it because you think thats the RAI for in from 6ed is stupid.

Lol. Looks like I am having a discussion with someone who is not capable of having a discussion.

Anyway, it looks like Xmas time for Nids. Nids is one of our tougher matchups and a rise in Nids is problematic for Necrons.

I am also seeing a rise in Orks. Orks have proven to be a real issue for Necrons. What are some of things Necrons can do to adress this?

I proved why RAI isn't valid, if your going to ignore that there is no point to continue this debate.

The last 20+ posts are you two discussin RAI. Can you take it to PMs ?

 CrownAxe wrote:
I proved why RAI isn't valid, if your going to ignore that there is no point to continue this debate.

I don't consider discussions with people who resort to "that's stupid" as actually debating. So stepping away from this non-debate we were having. Carry on. As you were.

####

Anyway, it looks like Xmas time for Nids. Nids is one of our tougher matchups and a rise in Nids is problematic for Necrons.

I am also seeing a rise in Orks. Orks have proven to be a real issue for Necrons. What are some of things Necrons can do to adress this?

With all the new Nids released this month, I am sure we will see more Tyranids coming out of hybernation and onto the gaming table.

Tryanid Drop pods are going to be the biggest nuisance, delivering bitey things right up to our metal feet.

I have two gut reactions to counter Tyranids, Scarab Farm and Cron Air. Use scarabs to bubblewrap what you don't want tied up in melee with bugs and rely on Scythes to dismember anything they have not tied up.

When I play orks the biggest issue I have when fighting Necrons is volume of fire and tissue saves. Anything we can do to keep out of assualt and force a shooting match is going to go in the Necrons favor.

TL;DR for the last couple pages-

Things most people are concerned with about SentryStar: the FDR's wording is not clear.
(A conservative interpretation simply doubles hits. A broken interpretation creates a bajillion hits under the right circumstances (eg. stick a bunch of your own Warriors next to a Wraithknight, draw line over 4 of them plus WK, suddenly WK is getting hit 10 times instead of 2... Wtf?!).)

Things one person is concerned with about SentryStar: artillery should not be able to benefit from relentless.

 adamsouza wrote:
With all the new Nids released this month, I am sure we will see more Tyranids coming out of hybernation and onto the gaming table.

Tryanid Drop pods are going to be the biggest nuisance, delivering bitey things right up to our metal feet.

I have two gut reactions to counter Tyranids, Scarab Farm and Cron Air. Use scarabs to bubblewrap what you don't want tied up in melee with bugs and rely on Scythes to dismember anything they have not tied up.

When I play orks the biggest issue I have when fighting Necrons is volume of fire and tissue saves. Anything we can do to keep out of assualt and force a shooting match is going to go in the Necrons favor.

What Ork list you running? I run 3 x 5 BullyBoyz in trukks, 15 TankBoyz in a Wagon, 15 lootas in ruins, 11 hardboyz in a trukk with a PK BP nob, 5 DeffKoptas attached to a Painboy and a Warboss both on bikes who scout, and a unit of gretchins in reserves. That list puts up a lot of right in your face pressure!

My Orks lists revolve around whatever Ork models I kustomized last, so they don't look conform to competitive templates. I also almost never play against Orks, and I can't remember the last time I had to fend off an Orkish invasion with crons.

The last time I had to fight crons with orks I stuck 15 tankbustas and 30 'ard boyz, both with painboyz, on skyshield landing pad, just to see 4++ saves with 5+ FNP on 45 models.

I want to know what new models necrons will get. Every other new army seems to have got on...

Ffyllotek wrote:
I want to know what new models necrons will get. Every other new army seems to have got on...

Ask Grey Knights about that.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
I want to know what new models necrons will get. Every other new army seems to have got on...

Ask Grey Knights about that.

In that current rumors point to minimal update (like Grey Knights), we're probably not getting anything but fixes and nerfs.
If we're lucky, the theory that 'Crons could some how fit into one of the upcoming campaign boxes could pan out and we could get a new Overlord model (like the Orks and SW did with the Storm Claw campaign. After all, Grey Knights did factor in at the end of Storm Claw, did they not?).
...
But this is probably a conversation for news and rumors, not tactics.

col_impact wrote:

Anyway, it looks like Xmas time for Nids. Nids is one of our tougher matchups and a rise in Nids is problematic for Necrons.

I am also seeing a rise in Orks. Orks have proven to be a real issue for Necrons. What are some of things Necrons can do to adress this?

Nids are actually deceptively good, and they've just got better with the slew of new unit releases recently. However, as much as a problem Tyranids present to Necrons, necrons can be just as problematic for Tyranid players as well. We've got all the tools to really hurt them and their flyers. Mindshackles stop their assault beasts and MC's dead in their tracks. Teslas bring down their flyrants easily. Volume of fire can deal with the gribblies. Bugs cannot reliably deal with AV13-spam, especially when that AV13 platform is shooting down their bugs as they try. More importantly, we can just out-maneuver them in most cases. Drop their new drop pod spores and we can just get out of the way. Frankly, I see Necrons as having the advantage on average against bugs.

As for orks, I really don't have much experience against the new orks, but if history is any indication, orks traditionally have had problems with necrons as well. But I'd rather defer advice here to someone who has had some more experience against them.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ffyllotek wrote:
I want to know what new models necrons will get. Every other new army seems to have got on...

Me too!

We will get more info from the web as it gets closer to our new release.

 jy2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Anyway, it looks like Xmas time for Nids. Nids is one of our tougher matchups and a rise in Nids is problematic for Necrons.

I am also seeing a rise in Orks. Orks have proven to be a real issue for Necrons. What are some of things Necrons can do to adress this?

Nids are actually deceptively good, and they've just got better with the slew of new unit releases recently. However, as much as a problem Tyranids present to Necrons, necrons can be just as problematic for Tyranid players as well. We've got all the tools to really hurt them and their flyers. Mindshackles stop their assault beasts and MC's dead in their tracks. Teslas bring down their flyrants easily. Volume of fire can deal with the gribblies. Bugs cannot reliably deal with AV13-spam, especially when that AV13 platform is shooting down their bugs as they try. More importantly, we can just out-maneuver them in most cases. Drop their new drop pod spores and we can just get out of the way. Frankly, I see Necrons as having the advantage on average against bugs.

As for orks, I really don't have much experience against the new orks, but if history is any indication, orks traditionally have had problems with necrons as well. But I'd rather defer advice here to someone who has had some more experience against them.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ffyllotek wrote:
I want to know what new models necrons will get. Every other new army seems to have got on...

Me too!

We will get more info from the web as it gets closer to our new release.

Here is the post Nova meta for how necrons compete on average vs other armies. Looking down each column shows an army’s win percentage by opponent.

I too would like to know some good strats for taking out up in your face armies. My good friend plays drop pod Space Wolves and my other friend plays aggressive/horde Orks.

That's a daft table. Necrons beat Necrons 51.1% of the time.

Ff

Ffyllotek wrote:
That's a daft table. Necrons beat Necrons 51.1% of the time.

Ff

There is a margin of error of 1.1%. Its on all of them (as in every mirror match is 51%)

 Gamerely wrote:
I too would like to know some good strats for taking out up in your face armies. My good friend plays drop pod Space Wolves and my other friend plays aggressive/horde Orks.

What I like to do in a lot of my lists is to include a squad or two of Scarabs and then Spyders as a backline defense can keep scary close combat units from getting to my squishy gunline. Spyders will add extra bases, and even though Scarabs are not going to win many Assaults, they're 4 wounds each and Fearless. 10 Scarab Bases can hold up anything that's not S6+ for a while, and Spyders themselves are no slouches in close combat (W3 T6 3+). They're also pretty cheap for what they do.



In a separate discussion, can we talk about HQs for a second? The way our HQs are set up are just so confusing to me. For being a shooting army, we have a woefully small number of HQs that empower our shooting or even have decent shooting attacks themselves. In fact, many of them, including the basic HQs of DLords and Overlords, are much better in Assault than they are at shooting. The DLord is an exception, because he's Jump and can roll with Wraiths, and the CCB is good sure, but most of our foot HQs just feel very counter intuitive. There are no decent retinues for them to get into Assault with - Lychguard/Praetorians are pretty bad, and the only Assault vehicle we have is the Ghost Ark, which can only be ridden in with Warriors (Rapid Fire and also crap in CC) or Royal Court (extremely expensive).

I always get jealous of our Tau players that have HQs that buff their shooting or have fantastic shooting attacks of their own. Heck, even Nids have better shooting HQs than us. If my HQ isn't on a Barge, I always just end up taking Nemesor Zahndrekh because hey, at least he can give some extra USRs and has a Res Orb. That's more than most of our characters can boast, and way more than a similarly kitted Overlord can do.

Requizen wrote:

 Gamerely wrote:
I too would like to know some good strats for taking out up in your face armies. My good friend plays drop pod Space Wolves and my other friend plays aggressive/horde Orks.

What I like to do in a lot of my lists is to include a squad or two of Scarabs and then Spyders as a backline defense can keep scary close combat units from getting to my squishy gunline. Spyders will add extra bases, and even though Scarabs are not going to win many Assaults, they're 4 wounds each and Fearless. 10 Scarab Bases can hold up anything that's not S6+ for a while, and Spyders themselves are no slouches in close combat (W3 T6 3+). They're also pretty cheap for what they do.



In a separate discussion, can we talk about HQs for a second? The way our HQs are set up are just so confusing to me. For being a shooting army, we have a woefully small number of HQs that empower our shooting or even have decent shooting attacks themselves. In fact, many of them, including the basic HQs of DLords and Overlords, are much better in Assault than they are at shooting. The DLord is an exception, because he's Jump and can roll with Wraiths, and the CCB is good sure, but most of our foot HQs just feel very counter intuitive. There are no decent retinues for them to get into Assault with - Lychguard/Praetorians are pretty bad, and the only Assault vehicle we have is the Ghost Ark, which can only be ridden in with Warriors (Rapid Fire and also crap in CC) or Royal Court (extremely expensive).

I always get jealous of our Tau players that have HQs that buff their shooting or have fantastic shooting attacks of their own. Heck, even Nids have better shooting HQs than us. If my HQ isn't on a Barge, I always just end up taking Nemesor Zahndrekh because hey, at least he can give some extra USRs and has a Res Orb. That's more than most of our characters can boast, and way more than a similarly kitted Overlord can do.

It does feel counter-intuitive a bit, since they're SO effective in CC. I'm still new to Necrons and haven't read through the whole codex yet but do they have anything that would grant them preferred enemy? I know the stalker grants twin linked so there's that at least.

... man, you really MUST be new to 'Crons!
(yes, the Destroyer Lord grants any infantry unit he joins PE)

D-lords can be quite good with the proper retinue ...

- Primary CAD Necrons - 885
HQ: Destroyer Lord - Warscythe - Mindshackle Scarabs - ResOrb - 175
TR: 2x 5 Warriors - Night Scythe 330
FA: Tomb Blade - Particle Beamer - 30
HS: 2x Doomsday Ark 350

- Allied Dark Harvest - 965
HQ: Destroyer Lord - Warscythe - Mindshackle Scarabs - ResOrb - 175
TR: 2x 20 Flayed One Pack - 520
HS: 3 x Anihilation Barge - 270

D-lords DS with PE flayed ones which are troops. Only the arks and barges need to start on the table.

And yes, it is a silly list but ... interesting. I'm not a huge fan of flayed ones but they are troops here and they have a whopping 4 attacks on the charge with preferred enemy and a murderous d-lord.

... uhh, pro-tip: if you're taking any Necron HQ, don't skimp on the Sempiternal Weave (ESPECIALLY on a Destroyer Lord).

Also, D.Lords attached to Deathmarks can be particularly nasty.
Tesla Immortals aren't a horrible unit to stick him in as well, but there's usually better options for him on the table.
Basically, if there is someone who has something good happen on a to-hit/to-wound roll of a 6, you want some way to give them the chance to reroll. At the moment, you're mostly restricted to D.Lords and Stalkers.

 felixcat wrote:
D-lords can be quite good with the proper retinue ...

- Primary CAD Necrons - 885
HQ: Destroyer Lord - Warscythe - Mindshackle Scarabs - ResOrb - 175
TR: 2x 5 Warriors - Night Scythe 330
FA: Tomb Blade - Particle Beamer - 30
HS: 2x Doomsday Ark 350

- Allied Dark Harvest - 965
HQ: Destroyer Lord - Warscythe - Mindshackle Scarabs - ResOrb - 175
TR: 2x 20 Flayed One Pack - 520
HS: 3 x Anihilation Barge - 270

D-lords DS with PE flayed ones which are troops. Only the arks and barges need to start on the table.

And yes, it is a silly list but ... interesting. I'm not a huge fan of flayed ones but they are troops here and they have a whopping 4 attacks on the charge with preferred enemy and a murderous d-lord.

That doesn't look like allies. It looks more like dual-CAD.

BTW, it's kinda stupid, but the Maynark Necrons are only Allies of Convenience to regular Necrons. Thus, you won't be able to attach the primary D-lord to the 2nd unit of flayed ones.

2 more suggestions:

1) As skoffs said, don't skimp out on the 2+ for your D-lords.

2) Get Flensing Scarabs for the Flayed Ones. Just 10-pts more to give them rending is totally worth it.

 jy2 wrote:

 felixcat wrote:
D-lords can be quite good with the proper retinue ...

- Primary CAD Necrons - 885
HQ: Destroyer Lord - Warscythe - Mindshackle Scarabs - ResOrb - 175
TR: 2x 5 Warriors - Night Scythe 330
FA: Tomb Blade - Particle Beamer - 30
HS: 2x Doomsday Ark 350

- Allied Dark Harvest - 965
HQ: Destroyer Lord - Warscythe - Mindshackle Scarabs - ResOrb - 175
TR: 2x 20 Flayed One Pack - 520
HS: 3 x Anihilation Barge - 270

D-lords DS with PE flayed ones which are troops. Only the arks and barges need to start on the table.

And yes, it is a silly list but ... interesting. I'm not a huge fan of flayed ones but they are troops here and they have a whopping 4 attacks on the charge with preferred enemy and a murderous d-lord.

That doesn't look like allies. It looks more like dual-CAD.

BTW, it's kinda stupid, but the Maynark Necrons are only Allies of Convenience to regular Necrons. Thus, you won't be able to attach the primary D-lord to the 2nd unit of flayed ones.

2 more suggestions:

1) As skoffs said, don't skimp out on the 2+ for your D-lords.

2) Get Flensing Scarabs for the Flayed Ones. Just 10-pts more to give them rending is totally worth it.

Sadly, Flensing Scarabs only gives Shred in the first round of combat. It does not grand Rending.

Still a nice boost, but sadly not that good.

Makes them better than they currently are...
(we can only hope new codex gives them this option, too)

 skoffs wrote:
Makes them better than they currently are...
(we can only hope new codex gives them this option, too)

What's so bad about flayed ones? I kid, I'm not THAT new. I wonder what changes they're going to make. Or if they'll add any new units. I'm really hoping Necrons are part of a battlebox like Stormclaw.

I feel stupid - I totaaly missed that they were allies of convenience. So I pretty much need dual CAD and two d-lords just for the Maynarkh CAD. Doable - just needs a bit of a tweak. i can drop a doomsday ark and use a CCB Overlord maybe drop one Ani barge too. Put the overlord in the Necron CAD ... still lots of barges and one ark.

What is the "correct" Necron response to tough units with good saves? Things like Riptides, Dreadknights, etc? We don't particularly have a lot of High Strength/Low AP shooting - only Destruction Crypteks, Stalkers, Doomsday Arks and Doom Scythes. Warscyhes work, but if you are unlucky with MSS, many MCs or assault-focused enemy characters will beat DLords and Overlords.

I've had issues in the past with MC focused Nid lists. Sure, I can put out a lot of shots with Annihilation Barges and eventually those Tyrants/Carnifexes/Tervigons will fail their saves, but I feel like we don't have any sure-fire ways to deal with heavy targets. We don't particularly have a "Devastator Squad" or "Heavy Weapons Team" analogy, which can be irksome in some situations.

How do you guys deal with these sorts of lists?

My answer has always been Barges and Flyers. Plus any other guns not poised to hit something squishier

Requizen wrote:
What is the "correct" Necron response to tough units with good saves? Things like Riptides, Dreadknights, etc? We don't particularly have a lot of High Strength/Low AP shooting - only Destruction Crypteks, Stalkers, Doomsday Arks and Doom Scythes. Warscyhes work, but if you are unlucky with MSS, many MCs or assault-focused enemy characters will beat DLords and Overlords.

I've had issues in the past with MC focused Nid lists. Sure, I can put out a lot of shots with Annihilation Barges and eventually those Tyrants/Carnifexes/Tervigons will fail their saves, but I feel like we don't have any sure-fire ways to deal with heavy targets. We don't particularly have a "Devastator Squad" or "Heavy Weapons Team" analogy, which can be irksome in some situations.

How do you guys deal with these sorts of lists?

Answer: Fast attack

Option 1:
Wraiths. Many attacks, rending, High Str, CC specialists with a good invuln save is not something most MC's want to play with. Add a D-lord for Preferred enemy

option 2:
Scarabs with entropic strike scare the hell out of my nidzilla opponent. Yes the MC's can ID a base of scarabs but it only takes one failed save to remove his armor for the rest of the game.
Alternatively the IA:12 scarabs can gain rending but lose entropic strike. the massive number of attacks with rending is good but vs high T mc's the wraiths do this job much better.

other options that are not fast attack

Option 3:
Tesla lots and lots of tesla.

option 4:
royal court, Honestly these guys are the elites of our codex. you want a devastator squad? royal court crypteks. heavy weapon team? royal court crypteks. Terminator cc squad? royal court lords. Terminator shootie squad? royal court mixed.