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As someone who plays Orks and will be hurt by this change, I still like the change. I know the game rules are supposed to be an abstraction of combat and so often things work in counter-intuitive ways, but I have a hard time believing you can hit an open-top vehicle and not torch the occupants too. I think it makes more sense this way.

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Man...I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I think 7th ed has done a lot of good things for orks. My buddy plays mech orks, and he's pretty thrilled.

Wounds spilling over from challenges is great for charging nobz and warbosses. Vehicles being able to claim objectives is awesome, as now your troop-choice deff dreds have Objective Secured (and are slightly more durable, and get hammer of wrath).

Ramming is now more effective. Objectives will tend be closer to midfield. Yes boyz in trukks get hit with flamer templates, but how many times have people flamed your trukks? Is it so prevalent that you're throwing up your hands in defeat before even playing a single game of 7th?

Transcendant C'tan get D-strength hellstorm templates.

So I can wipe out all your trukks and fry all your boys while I'm at it.

Oh, ok, good point- a 700 point Lord of War can now kill a maximum of 6 regular orks while they're embarked in a transport. My mistake- Ork Mechanized tactics are now officially dead!

Not your one truck.

All your trucks.

Hope you got a stompa.

I feel sorry for you if that's how games you play work.

So you feel sorry for him playing 40K now? Yeah, I agree.

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Man...I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I think 7th ed has done a lot of good things for orks. My buddy plays mech orks, and he's pretty thrilled.

Wounds spilling over from challenges is great for charging nobz and warbosses. Vehicles being able to claim objectives is awesome, as now your troop-choice deff dreds have Objective Secured (and are slightly more durable, and get hammer of wrath).

Ramming is now more effective. Objectives will tend be closer to midfield. Yes boyz in trukks get hit with flamer templates, but how many times have people flamed your trukks? Is it so prevalent that you're throwing up your hands in defeat before even playing a single game of 7th?

Sure. In thruth, it's only Trukks that got hit badly. Battlewagons became harder to crack open, less explode-y and better at ramming, even without the Deffrolla (I'd keep including 'rollas, though, they are a good deterrent against anyone foolish enough to come within 12"). But Trukks are still hurt by their just-not-good-enough transport capacity. Losing five or four boyz to a bad ramshackle roll was already a crippling disaster for a Trukk-mounted squad. Now, chances for said squads to drop under the dreaded ten-boy mark before even hitting the enemy are even greater. Of course, Meganobz can shrug off flamer and ramshackle wounds with ease, but for everything else, taking a trukk has become just too risky.

 Ouze wrote:
As someone who plays Orks and will be hurt by this change, I still like the change. I know the game rules are supposed to be an abstraction of combat and so often things work in counter-intuitive ways, but I have a hard time believing you can hit an open-top vehicle and not torch the occupants too. I think it makes more sense this way.

It wouldnt be as bad if our orks didnt have pure t-shirt saves, minus ONE unit in the army being 'ard boyz. Nobody puts footnobz in a vehicle, theyre always on bikes, and MANz dont even give a crap about flamers to begin with barring horrible luck. Even the lowly Flamer pens our armor and wounds on a 4, so D6 hits at 50% wound chance means 3-4 dead boyz per flamer hitting a vehicle the flamer cant even deter let alone damage. if in the new dex the rumor on 6+ fnp is true, and/or we can have any number of 'ard boyz, it wont be as bad anymore.

Also on the c'tan topic - if i was playing in a tournament that allowed lords of war, i would never bring a trukk list even WITHOUT this rule. Trukks are the squishiest vehicle in the game, the Kareeen! rule is their saving grace. I dont play tournaments, nor do any of my opponents have a remote "tournament playstyle" at my FLGS, so i will never have to worry about that. Biggest model i know someone at the store owns is a dark eldar vehicle - the Tauntalus. Im going to buy some Barracudas soon but they are by no means big or gamebreaking powerful lol.

 Kain wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
You know, a part of me *wants* them to gak on mech orks that badly. Put an end to my involvement with this farce of a game.

Mercy kill.

Would you play if the Ork Codex made Taudar, Flying Circues, Necrons, and Screamer Stars look tame in power levels and utter cheese?

Yes, because as the bringer of the biggest cheese I can dictate the levels of cheese in the game better than I can as the player with no cheese whatsoever.

No assaulting from most transports, no consolidating into another assault, no scout/inf/outflank/deep strike assaults, the nerf to jink, the nerf to FMC. It seems like a slow normalization of valueable tools for getting stuck in. Trukks and assault transports are another easy method of getting stuck in, maybe instead of just removing assault vehicle status from things they did this so they could stop normalizing all the things the same way.

Of course I don't think this affects land raiders though. But those already suffer from limited firepower and capacity for such a high cost model they probably don't need kicked in the nuts more.

Besides it also makes some sense to me. Waiting for new codex, also excpecting to see Zagstruck's DS assault go.

EDIT: sorry the jink thing is irrelevant to my point.

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
You know, a part of me *wants* them to gak on mech orks that badly. Put an end to my involvement with this farce of a game.

Mercy kill.

Would you play if the Ork Codex made Taudar, Flying Circues, Necrons, and Screamer Stars look tame in power levels and utter cheese?

Yes, because as the bringer of the biggest cheese I can dictate the levels of cheese in the game better than I can as the player with no cheese whatsoever.

I'd call it the Gorgonzola option.

Not going to lie, the suspension of disbelief shattering rules surrounding transports, buildings, their embarked units, and various weapons fire has been one of my most hated areas for a long time.

People riding around on a flat bed pickup shouldn't be immune from weapons fire while fortified bunkers shouldn't kill half their occupants every time they take a hit (I do truly hope they fixed building rules in 7th at least).

That said, I suppose I just have to get over it for the sake of playability of the game. I personally think these rules didn't go far enough, but if it makes certain playstyles that aren't unbalanced and are enjoyable not work than I'm willing to live with the rules.

Actually i think they did remove the glances on buildings harm the occupants. Least i didnt see it, then again i didnt read it that intently. Did notice that they can lose armor value now, and actually have a condition of they "wreck" if it reaches 0. No idea how the hell thats possible without going through 3-5 HP first lol.

 Kain wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Man...I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I think 7th ed has done a lot of good things for orks. My buddy plays mech orks, and he's pretty thrilled.

Wounds spilling over from challenges is great for charging nobz and warbosses. Vehicles being able to claim objectives is awesome, as now your troop-choice deff dreds have Objective Secured (and are slightly more durable, and get hammer of wrath).

Ramming is now more effective. Objectives will tend be closer to midfield. Yes boyz in trukks get hit with flamer templates, but how many times have people flamed your trukks? Is it so prevalent that you're throwing up your hands in defeat before even playing a single game of 7th?

Welcome to Dakka. Making snap decisions based on little to no evidence is what the 40k community does best!

White knighting for GW is also a favorite past time.

Calling out people for white knighting when they suggest you read the frigging book for yourself first is another favorite past-time as well isn't it?

You can do the same thing with rhinos, right. As long as the template is over the firing point? I don't have my book yet

 Dakkamite wrote:
You know, a part of me *wants* them to gak on mech orks that badly. Put an end to my involvement with this farce of a game.

Mercy kill.

I know this is farther back in the thread but dude this is EXACTLY how I'm starting to feel at this point.

NamelessBard wrote:
You can do the same thing with rhinos, right. As long as the template is over the firing point? I don't have my book yet

Nope, the rule specifies two situations: one, firing at an open-topped vehicle, and two, firing at a firing point on a building. I imagine the distinction is that a firing point on a vehicle could theoretically be nothing more than a tiny slit where you can point a weapon out, whereas a firing point on a building is more likely to be a window.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Man...I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I think 7th ed has done a lot of good things for orks. My buddy plays mech orks, and he's pretty thrilled.

Wounds spilling over from challenges is great for charging nobz and warbosses. Vehicles being able to claim objectives is awesome, as now your troop-choice deff dreds have Objective Secured (and are slightly more durable, and get hammer of wrath).

Ramming is now more effective. Objectives will tend be closer to midfield. Yes boyz in trukks get hit with flamer templates, but how many times have people flamed your trukks? Is it so prevalent that you're throwing up your hands in defeat before even playing a single game of 7th?

Transcendant C'tan get D-strength hellstorm templates.

So I can wipe out all your trukks and fry all your boys while I'm at it.

Oh, ok, good point- a 700 point Lord of War can now kill a maximum of 6 regular orks while they're embarked in a transport. My mistake- Ork Mechanized tactics are now officially dead!

Not your one truck.

All your trucks.

Hope you got a stompa.

I feel sorry for you if that's how games you play work.

So you feel sorry for him playing 40K now? Yeah, I agree.

No, I meant I feel sorry for him because he feels the need to evaluate his selection of basic troops based on how they will fare against 700 pt Apocalypse units. We have an OP who claims that his mode of playing has been irrevocably destroyed because of the addition of a tiny rule, and then we have a dude who posits the most absurdly rare and over-the-top application of that rule to demonstrate just how game-breaking it will be.

I feel that this has become the basic Dakka forumula:

POSTER 1- Daemonology is terrible! It's totally broken!

POSTER 2 (aka GW schill, amirite guys?)- Could it be interesting, though?

POSTER 1- No! I made an unforgivingly precise list designed from the ground-up to exploit Daemonology, and it didn't make for a fun game! HOW COULD THEY HAVE DONE THIS!?!

I think it's more at the point of:

P1: Open topped vehicles, and by extension a core build of my army has been roflstomp nerfed. The hell GW?

P2: GW is fine! Everything is fine!

P3: No it really isn't, look at what it's hypothetically possible to do with this gakky ruleset.

P2: Shut up P3! Read the book! It's all fine! Forge the narrative!

Everyone else: Screw this, I'ma play Warmahordefinity.

/Thread.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
I think it's more at the point of:

P1: Open topped vehicles, and by extension a core build of my army has been roflstomp nerfed. The hell GW?

P2: GW is fine! Everything is fine!

P3: No it really isn't, look at what it's hypothetically possible to do with this gakky ruleset.

P2: Shut up P3! Read the book! It's all fine! Forge the narrative!

Everyone else: Screw this, I'ma play Warmahordefinity.

/Thread.

So you think flamer hits getting a d6 on the passengers "roflstomp nerfed" trukks? That this fact, even when taken in balance with the fact that trukks became more effective in terms of both offense and defense and can now score (uncontested), rendered trukks so laughably bad that the entire 40k experience is ruined for this poor man?

I would like to remind people that the new Ork codex is coming next week, so worrying about the current codex now is quite irrelevant tbh..

Just wait and see what's coming..

Really? Next WEEK? Not next month?

 happygolucky wrote:
I would like to remind people that the new Ork codex is coming next week, so worrying about the current codex now is quite irrelevant tbh..

Just wait and see what's coming..

Wait what?

Where is the flurry of rumors that usually precede a codex release at this point?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/840/585556.page

This thread is showing pics of the Gorkanought, showing a strong suggestion that a codex will be followed along with it..

 Orock wrote:

Brother Michael wrote:
I think even GW would think twice before giving you 40 hits on the passengers of gorgons and stormswords (or something, the one baneblade variant with transport capacity)

Why, when a battlewagon with 15 burna boys hitting 5 terminators near them with a flamer template nets you 75 hits?

nothing about the orks makes sense. That's their shtick

 ionusx wrote:

 Orock wrote:

Brother Michael wrote:
I think even GW would think twice before giving you 40 hits on the passengers of gorgons and stormswords (or something, the one baneblade variant with transport capacity)

Why, when a battlewagon with 15 burna boys hitting 5 terminators near them with a flamer template nets you 75 hits?

nothing about the orks makes sense. That's their shtick

Well, it makes sense to me. You're firing 15 flamers at them. Some guys on the receiving end are going to die, fact of life.

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
I think it's more at the point of:

P1: Open topped vehicles, and by extension a core build of my army has been roflstomp nerfed. The hell GW?

P2: GW is fine! Everything is fine!

P3: No it really isn't, look at what it's hypothetically possible to do with this gakky ruleset.

P2: Shut up P3! Read the book! It's all fine! Forge the narrative!

Everyone else: Screw this, I'ma play Warmahordefinity.

/Thread.

So you think flamer hits getting a d6 on the passengers "roflstomp nerfed" trukks? That this fact, even when taken in balance with the fact that trukks became more effective in terms of both offense and defense and can now score (uncontested), rendered trukks so laughably bad that the entire 40k experience is ruined for this poor man?

I don't, but then I'm not the OP.

But no, I suppose he should forge a narrative harder, right?

 happygolucky wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/840/585556.page

This thread is showing pics of the Gorkanought, showing a strong suggestion that a codex will be followed along with it..

I'm hoping that grot tanks become table legal. I'd convert one into a pz ii j

I honestly think that trukks should be free to take with any unit.

Mechanized ork tactics already were dead, if anything they're better now because who fires flamers at trukks anyway?

The units that have a flamer because theyre expecting orks to charge them, or in the case of my Tau, bring one because i can and its great overwatch even at S4.

Theyre not really better. They arent worse either. Mecha ork lists were dead because the KFF nerf hurt like gak and our wheelz arent anywhere near as durable as you expect for the cost. Yes we can field 125pt AV14 tanks with 20 occupants (thats 2 Bigshoota, a Rolla, and RPJ included there) but the sides are AV12 and is VERY easy to nail the sides. Also, occupants usually only have a t-shirt save so if you do pop it you wipe out about half of whos inside. Only reason theyre even remotely better is now it needs +1 to explode them. Still a 4+ against AP1 though.
And god forbid orks are nearby when it does explode, since now exterior damage is str4 as well as occupants now. Which is why i dont wanna field any walkers - if they do explode, theres always boys around that will die in droves with it.

I don't think this template rule is going to impact orks much. If you are gonna field trukks, your gonna spam trukks. I know that when one of my trukks gets hit and popped that unit is pretty much done. Unless I get a chance to charge them to soak up an overwatch, camp an objective, or maybe mop up like 5 marines.(even thats tough in 6th!).

The template change is pretty much beating a dead squig.

I haven't seen anything but I keep hoping for a return of mobbing up rule. Thats my #1 hope on a wishlist.

 ionusx wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/840/585556.page

This thread is showing pics of the Gorkanought, showing a strong suggestion that a codex will be followed along with it..

I'm hoping that grot tanks become table legal. I'd convert one into a pz ii j

Grot Tanks are legal now due to the stamp on the unit..

I personally hope Kan wall comes back with a vengeance, as Iove Ork walkers..

Ork Mech got a boost from the Vehicle Damage table and a nerf because of Template weapons hurting units inside. I would argue this is a net positive, as there are far fewer template weapons that can get the drop on Ork vehicles. Also consider that it is going to be a much rarer situation for your boyz to be taking wounds from an exploded vehicle. Especially considering that they nerfed the Heldrake today in the newly released FAQ (it's flamer is now hull-mounted, so it can no longer get 360' or measure from its base).