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Getting no perils helped

Thanks for the new signature.

 jy2 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
That's actually not true it states clearly in the rulebook that Daemons ( Ie all daemons) have access to Malefic. Now Daemons get their Gods signature spell for free automatically so Pink Horrors would get Flickering Fire and then have to roll on the Malefic chart.

By your logic Heralds shouldn't get it either as the only thing listed for them is Change and Divination.

In fact no one would get access by your logic.

Again, it's stated CLEARLY in the rulebook that Daemons have access to Malefic now as one of their choices.

It's even mentioned in the White Dwarf of Pink Horrors casting Sacrifice.

The BRB says "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers....can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

The codex states that Horrors can only cast from the Tzeentch powers in the codex. That satisfies the "unless otherwise stated" clause from the BRB.

Of course, we will see what happens when the new FAQ's come out.

And I wouldn't be surprised if GW got their own rules wrong in their own battle report.

Space Marines Librarians generate powers from Telekinesis, Telepathy, etc...

Wydrvane Psykers generate powers from Divination, Telepathy, etc...

Daemon Princes generate powers from Telekinesis, Biomancy, etc...

Horrors generate powers from the Change discipline

Heralds of Tzeentch generate powers from Change or Divination.

The verbiage is the same for every psyker in all of the 6th books. If you are going to say Horrors cannot take Daemonology, you are arguing that no psyker in the entire game can whether you realize it or not.

Since it is plainly stated by the rulebook that every psyker in the game can take Daemonology unless otherwise prohibited (Daemons can't take Sanctic), and there is no special language prohibiting Horrors from doing so, they are allowed to roll Malefic, and then swap the power for Summoning.

 Red Corsair wrote:
It is actually late given their history which is troubling, especially since the old FAQ was put back up a few weeks back on BL. I wouldn't hold my breath this time.

That's because they are still internally debating on whether people are going to be angry/upset/rage quit when the new edition FAQs come out, are digital download only, and cost $3.99 a piece. After all, GW gives N-O-T-H-I-N-G away nowadays. If they can charge admission to a retail store (Games Day) don't be surprised, in their desperation for revenue, if the FAQs are now charged for.

Wish I could say I was being sarcastic, but I am not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

slaede wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
That's actually not true it states clearly in the rulebook that Daemons ( Ie all daemons) have access to Malefic. Now Daemons get their Gods signature spell for free automatically so Pink Horrors would get Flickering Fire and then have to roll on the Malefic chart.

By your logic Heralds shouldn't get it either as the only thing listed for them is Change and Divination.

In fact no one would get access by your logic.

Again, it's stated CLEARLY in the rulebook that Daemons have access to Malefic now as one of their choices.

It's even mentioned in the White Dwarf of Pink Horrors casting Sacrifice.

The BRB says "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers....can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

The codex states that Horrors can only cast from the Tzeentch powers in the codex. That satisfies the "unless otherwise stated" clause from the BRB.

Of course, we will see what happens when the new FAQ's come out.

And I wouldn't be surprised if GW got their own rules wrong in their own battle report.

Space Marines Librarians generate powers from Telekinesis, Telepathy, etc...

Wydrvane Psykers generate powers from Divination, Telepathy, etc...

Daemon Princes generate powers from Telekinesis, Biomancy, etc...

Horrors generate powers from the Change discipline

Heralds of Tzeentch generate powers from Change or Divination.

The verbiage is the same for every psyker in all of the 6th books. If you are going to say Horrors cannot take Daemonology, you are arguing that no psyker in the entire game can whether you realize it or not.

Since it is plainly stated by the rulebook that every psyker in the game can take Daemonology unless otherwise prohibited (Daemons can't take Sanctic), and there is no special language prohibiting Horrors from doing so, they are allowed to roll Malefic, and then swap the power for Summoning.

It should be noted, they were very specific to say Tyranids could not, Daemons could only have Malefic and GK only has Sanctic. If they didn't intend on summoned Deamons getting it, I am pretty sure they would have spelled that out along with the other exclusions. People are hoping they can't summon, when I think they made it very CLEAR they can.

One has only think about the intent behind the rule to begin with - to sell lots and lots and lots of boxes of daemon models to people no matter what army they are running (except Tyranids). GW wants you to be able to summon 2,000 extra points of models (after all that's 20 boxes of models per player). They want other players to be steamrolled by it so you have to do the same to have a competitive game (and thus you buy 20 boxes of models). And so on.

You need to stop kidding yourselves that this was done for the "fun" of the game and realize this is nothing more than a direction sheet on how to enjoy the best part of the hobby - spending your money of plastic men. There is nothing more to the hobby. No game, no painting, no converting - just spending your cash on GW, because you know that is your absolute favorite part of the hobby. Everything else is just a waste.

I am not done watching the battle report yet but I have heard them say double 6s perils for daemonolgy spells. If I remember my rule book correctly(its not in front of me) the rules doe daemonology say that ANY doubles peril. Am I wrong in that? If needed I will provide page and paragraphs when I get home tonight.

Was this game played with only bouble 6 being perils? That may have changed the game if so.(Although I don't play daemons so I do not know if they have the means to negate perils)

slaede wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
That's actually not true it states clearly in the rulebook that Daemons ( Ie all daemons) have access to Malefic. Now Daemons get their Gods signature spell for free automatically so Pink Horrors would get Flickering Fire and then have to roll on the Malefic chart.

By your logic Heralds shouldn't get it either as the only thing listed for them is Change and Divination.

In fact no one would get access by your logic.

Again, it's stated CLEARLY in the rulebook that Daemons have access to Malefic now as one of their choices.

It's even mentioned in the White Dwarf of Pink Horrors casting Sacrifice.

The BRB says "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers....can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

The codex states that Horrors can only cast from the Tzeentch powers in the codex. That satisfies the "unless otherwise stated" clause from the BRB.

Of course, we will see what happens when the new FAQ's come out.

And I wouldn't be surprised if GW got their own rules wrong in their own battle report.

Space Marines Librarians generate powers from Telekinesis, Telepathy, etc...

Wydrvane Psykers generate powers from Divination, Telepathy, etc...

Daemon Princes generate powers from Telekinesis, Biomancy, etc...

Horrors generate powers from the Change discipline

Heralds of Tzeentch generate powers from Change or Divination.

The verbiage is the same for every psyker in all of the 6th books. If you are going to say Horrors cannot take Daemonology, you are arguing that no psyker in the entire game can whether you realize it or not.

Since it is plainly stated by the rulebook that every psyker in the game can take Daemonology unless otherwise prohibited (Daemons can't take Sanctic), and there is no special language prohibiting Horrors from doing so, they are allowed to roll Malefic, and then swap the power for Summoning.

Well, in that case, let me slay the psyker with Vortex of Doom cast from my GK rhino.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Druid13 wrote:
I am not done watching the battle report yet but I have heard them say double 6s perils for daemonolgy spells. If I remember my rule book correctly(its not in front of me) the rules doe daemonology say that ANY doubles peril. Am I wrong in that? If needed I will provide page and paragraphs when I get home tonight.

Was this game played with only bouble 6 being perils? That may have changed the game if so.(Although I don't play daemons so I do not know if they have the means to negate perils)

Any double=Perils apply to every non-daemon psykers. Daemons peril normally (on 6,6) only with regards to Malefic powers.

Some people are getting carried away. Nids have Tervigons and Necrons have their Scarabs. No one is on a crusade to ban hammer them.

Wait, in one casting the daemons player rolled 3 4+ on a psychic test for a charge 3 power, and it was stated the GK player needed 3 6's to deny. Wouldn't he need just one?

You have deny each successful die... If you just needed one it would be the end of psychic powers.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Some people are getting carried away. Nids have Tervigons and Necrons have their Scarabs. No one is on a crusade to ban hammer them.

A tervigon is overpriced as a base MC because it produces termagaunts. Daemon units do not have a price adjustment. Scarabs are just... bad.

Scarabs are awesome and will be stronger now with the return of armor. Plus they can score now. Except for maybe daemonettes I think overall they are better than the other troop choices for daemons.

If we head towards a vehicle type meta considering scarabs are now scoring they will swing back to very good quickly..

You only need 450 points of Spyders and 135 points of "starting scarabs" for the farm also, lots of extra points to spend on other things.

i keep seeing players cry out for warp charge caps, or to ban demonology.

well like others have said, lets cap shooting potential, maybe you can only roll 12 dice in the shooting phase, this includes running. sounds fair to demons, lets cap your strongest phase, since you feel the need to cap mine.

lets also ban s6-s7 weapons, they're too powerful and game breaking. you think my strongest weapons should be banned, lets ban yours too then.

game balance!

 zachwho wrote:
i keep seeing players cry out for warp charge caps, or to ban demonology.

well like others have said, lets cap shooting potential, maybe you can only roll 12 dice in the shooting phase, this includes running. sounds fair to demons, lets cap your strongest phase, since you feel the need to cap mine.

lets also ban s6-s7 weapons, they're too powerful and game breaking. you think my strongest weapons should be banned, lets ban yours too then.

game balance!

Stop committing logical fallacies

By the math of build, the Tzeentch Clown Car is busted. We don't need to wait for a confident level of battle reports to look at the game and the numbers to see it's busted.

We either choose as a community to fix what's broken to play it or remained a divided set of players, each with their own unique interpretation of how the game should be played.

in comparison to the assault phase, the shooting phase is busted. if wwe're looking to alter and change the way one phase is working, then we should as a community be willing to alter the other busted overpowered phase.

what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 jy2 wrote:
Well, in that case, let me slay the psyker with Vortex of Doom cast from my GK rhino.

No. Page references, for your benefit:

Codex: Chaos Daemons, page 38.

Codex: Grey Knights, page 33.

The Rules, page 23 and page 28.


Horrors, for example, generate their powers from the Change discipline. Page 28 from the rules adds Malefic to the disciplines from which they can generate powers, as it is not otherwise stated that they cannot get it.

GK Rhinos don't roll on any discipline. They get a specific power. Page 28 still states that they get Sanctic unless otherwise stated. On page 23 of the rules book, otherwise is stated.

Seems clear cut to me. Of course, GW being GW, it's probable that there's another rule buried somewhere that turns all this on its head, or an FAQ may be released where they have changed their minds.

What if we tried this:

Only a psker with a mastery level 3 or higher can generate or use psychic powers requiring 3 or more warp charges.

Horrors are ML 1, their rule doesn't change that.

Then the herald can still be summoned, but the wound helps balance that. It's not perfect, but better.

Also I would believe based on reading the conjuration type, there will soon be more things to conjure in upcoming publications. So it won't just be daemon boxes you'll want to buy.

Has anyone considered that this is WAI by GW. This exact thing was done before by GW in 7th edition Fantasy and it completely broke the game. Thus the fixes that came in 8th edition Fantasy corrected it.

Now in 7th edition 40k (ironic the edition numbers match to the same that broke Fantasy), and they put in the exact same thing that broke Fantasy (and as an aside, completely decimated the player base).

I would contend that GW, in their overzealousness to "sell more models" has proven, by adding a mechanic they KNOW was a major disaster with Fantasy in 7th, that they do NOT care about this being in any way, shape or form out of balance. They just know that if you can reliably summon another 2,000 point of daemons in every army, it is another $200-$250 out of every player. Never mind what they will make with all the additions that come around because of the revised FoC and Unbound.

And before anyone starts with the we have to balance it because of this Forge the Narrative crap, might I remind everyone that Warhammer World still regularly hosts tournaments and GW themselves were the originators of the RTT and GTs. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in any of their former or current marketing or books have they stated that the game is NOT meant for tournaments. The Forge The Narrative is just one way to play the game (by building a story, not having to fix a completely half-a--ed effort at game rules).

If my last statement is correct, no one should get up any hope this is going to be "fixed" in any FAQ. We can all probably expect that 40k 7th will follow the same direction as Fantasy 7th. Not a good thing indeed.

 zachwho wrote:
in comparison to the assault phase, the shooting phase is busted. if wwe're looking to alter and change the way one phase is working, then we should as a community be willing to alter the other busted overpowered phase.

what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

You don't understand what math and statistics are, do you?

Daemons summon spam wont win tourney's for 1 simple reason.

All their games will time out.

demons made a LOT of lucky rolls... makeing a 3 charge power, with only three charges, is a 12% chance...

added to them rollin gbuckets of dice with no perils, and its not a good indicator of what actually will happen.. this is a worst case bat rep when daemons make every single roll with no perils... this is not statistically probable by a long shot.

 easysauce wrote:
demons made a LOT of lucky rolls... makeing a 3 charge power, with only three charges, is a 12% chance...

added to them rollin gbuckets of dice with no perils, and its not a good indicator of what actually will happen.. this is a worst case bat rep when daemons make every single roll with no perils... this is not statistically probable by a long shot.

What? Demons failed their first power of the game and it was a WC 1. Obviously dice happen. Statistically speaking, the impact of perils will be nothing compared to new nit generation. Even if you perils on every success turn one you talking about trading 1 wound for 10 every time. You do realize that right? Not to mention if wouldn't even kill any of the original casters so they can do it again turn 2.

 Thud wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Well, in that case, let me slay the psyker with Vortex of Doom cast from my GK rhino.

No. Page references, for your benefit:

Codex: Chaos Daemons, page 38.

Codex: Grey Knights, page 33.

The Rules, page 23 and page 28.


Horrors, for example, generate their powers from the Change discipline. Page 28 from the rules adds Malefic to the disciplines from which they can generate powers, as it is not otherwise stated that they cannot get it.

GK Rhinos don't roll on any discipline. They get a specific power. Page 28 still states that they get Sanctic unless otherwise stated. On page 23 of the rules book, otherwise is stated.

Seems clear cut to me. Of course, GW being GW, it's probable that there's another rule buried somewhere that turns all this on its head, or an FAQ may be released where they have changed their minds.

Well FAQs are up and they made a point of clarifying that Pink Horrors do indeed get summoning...just like it says in the rulebook. So it was not played wrong at all as some posters claimed and was in fact just reiterated that you played it correctly.

im curious, how did he get so many warp charges,

two lvl 3 hq's + every FOC filled with BOP's only equals 21WC+d6, so I am questioning the 6 sucesses on turn one that require 36 warp charges to get a 65% chance to summon... esp since apparently, they ALL passed, with no perils taking out guys... which is not statistically likely.


considering nothing mishapped, nothing periled, and every single roll the demons rolled, was made, even the unlikely ones, all to end up with a tie, especially since that IG list was not even close to what you will see from them at a tournament.

Im not sure why people think the sky is falling.

TBH, it seems like a predetermined point was being made here.

 Wayshuba wrote:

I would contend that GW, in their overzealousness to "sell more models" has proven, by adding a mechanic they KNOW was a major disaster with Fantasy in 7th, that they do NOT care about this being in any way, shape or form out of balance. They just know that if you can reliably summon another 2,000 point of daemons in every army, it is another $200-$250 out of every player.

Uh, isn't the whole point of Daemonology that it's NOT reliable for non-Daemons?

Quote to remember from the battle report "longest game ever!"

Daemons factory is not a threat to tournaments as they will never get past turn 3.

Backfire wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:

I would contend that GW, in their overzealousness to "sell more models" has proven, by adding a mechanic they KNOW was a major disaster with Fantasy in 7th, that they do NOT care about this being in any way, shape or form out of balance. They just know that if you can reliably summon another 2,000 point of daemons in every army, it is another $200-$250 out of every player.

Uh, isn't the whole point of Daemonology that it's NOT reliable for non-Daemons?

Supposed to be. Of course, the whole point of it at that some armies shouldn't have access to it at all (in keeping with the fluff), but that is something else. However, there are so many mitigating things for Perils, or, from what I have seen of the battle reports, the Perils from the Warp doesn't seem as "penalizing" as it should be for what you get in return. We'll have to see how it plays out. Of course, then we still have Invisibility, which avoids the extra perils

After reading the FAQs, it is clear they want EVERYONE summoning daemons all over the place. I still the abuses that can come with Sacrifice followed by Summoning in any army. I also think it was intentional. Sacrifice a WC1 power, most likely not to have a non-Daemon army peril. If it goes off, you have a Herald - which are basically your staple summoning machines. Now anyone has Daemons, summoning Daemons. Since they reiterated (I won't say clarified because it was already clear) in the FAQs that summoned Daemons can do this, it is apparent anyone can build a Daemon Summoning Factory - just may take one extra turn to get it rolling.

Of course, these are just early battle reports ignoring the most important part of the rules the "if you have the proper models" part. Which is the most important aspect of the rule GW wanted you to focus on - the pay to win part of it. Because apparently, after 20,000 plus years of some races fearing the warp and the creatures from it, they have now chosen to embrace it and all become best pal love kittens.

Still looking to see a battle report with someone who builds Eldar focused on summoning. Can't wait to see a bunch of Eldar running around, all wearing soulstones because of their utter fear of ending in the warp, and Wraithguards, lords, knights who embody those soulstones because it is better than being in the warp, next to a bunch of warp summoned daemons... because it fits the fluff so well.

Personally, I am not against the theory behind the Malefic powers (though the implementation leaves a heck of a lot to be desired), but it should have been limited to Chaos Daemons (with the aforementioned much better implementation to prevent such abuses) and Chaos Space Marines. That would have fit the fluff.

A daemon factory list on a city fight board, everyone knows I love good terrain but that board was a feature board.

The other was a guy using a new army in a new edition, didnt know the rules for necrons very well let alone HOW to play it while Reece was using his Eldar which he has used plently of times before. Hardly a good representation of 7th Edition except for what they wanted it to be,

MarkyMark wrote:
A daemon factory list on a city fight board, everyone knows I love good terrain but that board was a feature board.

The other was a guy using a new army in a new edition, didnt know the rules for necrons very well let alone HOW to play it while Reece was using his Eldar which he has used plently of times before. Hardly a good representation of 7th Edition except for what they wanted it to be,

If anything the terrain helped the imperials not the demons.

I agree that there are two major problems with the psychic phase. It is NOT the unlimited nature of warp charges as you would be reducing the range output for Tzeentch flickering fire based armies to less dakka over the course of many games than six heavy bolters...does that sound "fair" to you?

There are several broken powers (invisibility, fortune, and conjuration powers) which need fixing and the ability to close out your opponent's psychic phase is awful.

These are relatively easy to fix though;
-When generating DtW dice you can not have more than 2x your opponent's WC dice. This still makes psyker based armies difficult to get things off but they cannot overwhelm you. In fact the averages would be on your side, heavily on your side.
-Invisibility is a 4 WC power and fortune is a 3 WC power. A 4 WC power will need 7 dice to even have a 50% shot at it. To get it off at a 90% rate like people would want it would require 12 dice. This makes getting fortune and invisibility off in the same turn pretty tough and you will be taking perils like crazy.
-The summoning powers need an upkeep tax or a limit. I would recommend an upkeep of 1 WC per summoned unit as artificial limits don't scale well. I would also implement a standard setup for conjured units to speed the games up. I know that it would be a major nerf but the list just plays too slow due to the rolling up powers and gifts every turn.

I also think that people are way over reacting to the "power" of the factory as the factory lists are slow and lack any significant punch until turn ~3+ when they have finally summoned units who are not only capable of summoning. In terms of mobility, firepower, and even melee ability the factory list is pathetic. If the opponent even bother to use witchfire powers then they will severely reduce their ability to summon...thereby negating their entire strategy. The interesting thing is that the objectives deck actually actively work against this type of list as the summoned units lack objective secured (they are not part of a battleforged detachment) and the ability to pick up objective before the factory really picks up can cause the game to be won already.

I totally agree that the unbound armies is just not fun when you are trying to have a balanced game with variety. This is mostly due to a homogenizing effect from it.