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 Ashiraya wrote:
I love all races, in truth, I believe they all have their place, but I agree with both Raiden and Ailaros.

Marines are extremely few. As in, there's millions, if not billions, if not trillions, if not quadrillions (Etc) of Guardsmen whereas there is but one million Marines.

Neither the power to kill a hundred Orks nor the tactical acumen they are famed for would be enough. It is all those factors combined that make up for their low numbers and make them such a relevant force as they are.

It makes most sense that way.

Remember that Space Marines are trained in and capable at all forms of warfare. This includes fighting a far more numerous foe, or a siege.


And this is why I play Space Marines. Shame their Codex doesn't do them any justice.

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Space marines can wade through a lot of lasgun fire, sure. In game terms, it takes NINE guardsmen spraying at a space marine with rapid fire weapons to force one down. That's pretty beefy.

But it's not friggin invincible. Space marines have good equipment and are good fighters, but they tend to lose and lose badly in pitched battles because they're not THAT much better than regular humans.

Which is why space marines never fight pitched battles. It's what they have the imperial guard for. Space marines are smart enough to get into situations where they don't have 9 guardsmen with lasguns pointing at them at once. They know how to attack weakness, not get sucked into grinding battles of attrition they can't win.



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From a body to body comparison, straight up it has to be grots.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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 TheCustomLime wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
I love all races, in truth, I believe they all have their place, but I agree with both Raiden and Ailaros.

Marines are extremely few. As in, there's millions, if not billions, if not trillions, if not quadrillions (Etc) of Guardsmen whereas there is but one million Marines.

Neither the power to kill a hundred Orks nor the tactical acumen they are famed for would be enough. It is all those factors combined that make up for their low numbers and make them such a relevant force as they are.

It makes most sense that way.

Remember that Space Marines are trained in and capable at all forms of warfare. This includes fighting a far more numerous foe, or a siege.


And this is why I play Space Marines. Shame their Codex doesn't do them any justice.


Unbound exists. Use an army of 100% captains or chapter masters. Movie Marines?

Have fun!

 Ailaros wrote:
Space marines can wade through a lot of lasgun fire, sure. In game terms, it takes NINE guardsmen spraying at a space marine with rapid fire weapons to force one down. That's pretty beefy.

But it's not friggin invincible. Space marines have good equipment and are good fighters, but they tend to lose and lose badly in pitched battles because they're not THAT much better than regular humans.

Which is why space marines never fight pitched battles. It's what they have the imperial guard for. Space marines are smart enough to get into situations where they don't have 9 guardsmen with lasguns pointing at them at once. They know how to attack weakness, not get sucked into grinding battles of attrition they can't win.



You forgot to throw in a few 'In my opinion...' there.

Aside from your first segment, what you are saying is not objective, but this is what you seem to be implying.

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Start providing some evidence of space marines winning long battles of attrition while massively outnumbered in open, pitched battles.

In every example of SM fluff that I can think of, SM are never that stupid.


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 Ailaros wrote:
Start providing some evidence of space marines winning long battles of attrition while massively outnumbered in open, pitched battles.

In every example of SM fluff that I can think of, SM are never that stupid.



As far as I know, sieges and similar gruelling battles of attrition is exactly what the Iron Warriors excel at.

Storm of Iron? Sure they had human auxiliaries but the IW did most of the job.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/27 22:29:04


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Well, without equipment I'd say a Tau Firewarrior.

It's all in the rolls. 
   
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There's gotta be some IF stuff on that front too, surely?

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Also, note I said 20 marines would beat 2000 orks any day because of there increased strength durability, AND there tactics. They wouldn't fight in an open field, they would strike and retreat hitting key parts of the enemy the entire time.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Because Plague Marines have the evasion abilities of a drunk elephant.


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 liquidjoshi wrote:
There's gotta be some IF stuff on that front too, surely?


Yep, IF too.

They are great at 'line duty', even if they of course excel at all other types of warfare as well like Marines tend to.

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Yes, when an ENTIRE LEGION OF SPACE MARINES descended on a single planet back during the early days, they could certainly beat some face. That doesn't happen anymore, though. Not even close.

Even then, they're not that great of an example for this, because the iron warriors, at least, were there to make lightning assaults at the beginning or end of campaigns. All of that talk of iron warriors besieging stuff cloaks the fact that they had vast armies of traitor guardsmen who did a majority of the work.



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 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, when an ENTIRE LEGION OF SPACE MARINES descended on a single planet back during the early days, they could certainly beat some face. That doesn't happen anymore, though. Not even close.

Even then, they're not that great of an example for this, because the iron warriors, at least, were there to make lightning assaults at the beginning or end of campaigns. All of that talk of iron warriors besieging stuff cloaks the fact that they had vast armies of traitor guardsmen who did a majority of the work.




Storm of Iron was not during 'early days'

Neither was it a whole Legion.

Neither did their 'vast armies' do the majority of the work.

It was a gruelling siege, simply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To put it like this; Marines are proficient at all kinds of warfare. This we know. Does anything more have to be said?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/27 23:13:32


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 TheSilo wrote:
This is what happens when you let a bunch of heretics onto the forums.

The Imperial Guardsman is the epitome of strength. Armed with an unshakeable faith in the one true emperor, a Guardsman is invincible. A force to strike fear in the corrupt heart of every putrid xenos polluting the Emperor's glorious galaxy.

Equipped with his mighty lasgun with which to vanquish the foes of the Emperor!

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Or at least play the little-red-dot game with errant squigs..

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 Ascalam wrote:
If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

I wish TT Orks were as good as Relic Orks.

Relic is definitely an Ork loving company.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
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 Kain wrote:
 Ascalam wrote:
If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

I wish TT Orks were as good as Relic Orks.

Relic is definitely an Ork loving company.


You bet they are. Catachans hit harder than 'Uge Choppa Nobz in retail Retribution.

wait wtf

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Krieg! What a hole...

And stormtroopers hellguns have longer range than lasguns, of if only :(

And the Manticore can re-spawn its missiles.

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 Bobthehero wrote:
And stormtroopers hellguns have longer range than lasguns, of if only :(

And the Manticore can re-spawn its missiles.


The manticore thing I assume is okay. The Guard probably have supply lines but having units for that is just too much clutter. That much abstraction is OK. In my mod, I may increase its cooldown and damage though as right now it is rather short but deals low damage considering the size of the missiles...

May change Hellguns to do plasma damage but have equal DPS to Lasguns? Maybe that would make sense?

Or no, they would probably do a bit more damage than that. At least like 3-4 lasguns even against unarmoured targets.

I am sorta mod-obsessed atm as I just got back to working on it. Sorry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 21:41:13


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Tau. Ignoring Wargear, they're absolutely miserable considering their lack of melee skills and poor eyesight. Even the most pathetic Chaos Cultists armed with butter knives mentioned earlier could take a Tau Firewarrior in a fight ignoring wargear. However if they count, Grots definitely take the cake as the most pathetic infantry.

As for Astartes, it's the fluff. They go so high that I can even pull an example of a Space Marine psyker who turned into a bloody super sayain, no exaggeration involved at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 23:19:45


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Maybe the deal with Grots vs Fire Warriors is that you fully expect the Grots to be worthless. That's their job.

But Fire Warriors are supposed to be the pride of the Tau Empire. Their staunch defenders. Yet they almost seem to completely ignore the existence of melee combat and don't teach anything practical. Not even techniques to disengage from melee so you can bring your ranged weapons to bear.

Its a serious hole in Tau doctrine.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
Maybe the deal with Grots vs Fire Warriors is that you fully expect the Grots to be worthless. That's their job.

But Fire Warriors are supposed to be the pride of the Tau Empire. Their staunch defenders. Yet they almost seem to completely ignore the existence of melee combat and don't teach anything practical. Not even techniques to disengage from melee so you can bring your ranged weapons to bear.

Its a serious hole in Tau doctrine.


Tau Fire Warriors with Hit and Run would cost more points. GW can't allow this- it would mean you need less of them for the same army size.

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Grots definitely. It's their job, as was said, they are intentionally the weakest, cheapest troops in the game (though conscripts are just as cheap and alot better in every way).
Firewarriors are kinda junk without gear.
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Grey Templar wrote:But Fire Warriors are supposed to be the pride of the Tau Empire. Their staunch defenders. Yet they almost seem to completely ignore the existence of melee combat

They don't have to. Hell, even the US army doesn't teach bayonet drill anymore.

And Firewarriors should be proud, they're a very, very effective fighting unit. Firewarriors aren't bad, it's just that their statline is somewhat crummy, but that's because they're tau. They're the best of what you can make of them, racially. Well, without giving them even better equipment.

Your complaint is akin to saying that stormtroopers should have a lot better statline because they're the best humanity has to offer. Which is true, but that doesn't mean their statline is going to be the same as super-human space marines.



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It's amazing how everybody seems to think that tau have bad eyesight even though the only place where that is mentioned (IIRC) is The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, which is officially propaganda.

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If GW carry on shafting BA at the rate they are, my money is on death company marines. Take a few of them to take down a grot in a years time...
   
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 Ailaros wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:But Fire Warriors are supposed to be the pride of the Tau Empire. Their staunch defenders. Yet they almost seem to completely ignore the existence of melee combat

They don't have to. Hell, even the US army doesn't teach bayonet drill anymore.

And Firewarriors should be proud, they're a very, very effective fighting unit. Firewarriors aren't bad, it's just that their statline is somewhat crummy, but that's because they're tau. They're the best of what you can make of them, racially. Well, without giving them even better equipment.

Your complaint is akin to saying that stormtroopers should have a lot better statline because they're the best humanity has to offer. Which is true, but that doesn't mean their statline is going to be the same as super-human space marines.


No, but the US army does still teach close combat techniques.

And Stormtroopers already have a pretty good statline. No complaints there.

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Krieg! What a hole...

Meh, they should have the stat line of a Grenadier.

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 Ashiraya wrote:
 Kain wrote:
 Ascalam wrote:
If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

I wish TT Orks were as good as Relic Orks.

Relic is definitely an Ork loving company.


You bet they are. Catachans hit harder than 'Uge Choppa Nobz in retail Retribution.

wait wtf


There are people who don't use the hammers of kill everything?

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Kain wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 Kain wrote:
 Ascalam wrote:
If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

I wish TT Orks were as good as Relic Orks.

Relic is definitely an Ork loving company.


You bet they are. Catachans hit harder than 'Uge Choppa Nobz in retail Retribution.

wait wtf


There are people who don't use the hammers of kill everything?


To be fair, the hammers' base damage is less than 10% higher than the choppas'.

It is the stacking damage buff that quickly gets ridiculous.

My point stands- a 5 model swiss army knife T1 unit should not outdamage a dedicated heavy melee T3 unit that also is more expensive and lacks all the utility abilities and ludicrous ranged damage of the former...

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Temple Prime

 Ashiraya wrote:
 Kain wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 Kain wrote:
 Ascalam wrote:
If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

I wish TT Orks were as good as Relic Orks.

Relic is definitely an Ork loving company.


You bet they are. Catachans hit harder than 'Uge Choppa Nobz in retail Retribution.

wait wtf


There are people who don't use the hammers of kill everything?


To be fair, the hammers' base damage is less than 10% higher than the choppas'.

It is the stacking damage buff that quickly gets ridiculous.

My point stands- a 5 model swiss army knife T1 unit should not outdamage a dedicated heavy melee T3 unit that also is more expensive and lacks all the utility abilities and ludicrous ranged damage of the former...

Yeah in spite of 1d4chan's raging about "OP eldar" I generally found the Guard and Venom cannon spamming Tyranids (especially Carnifexes oh man the Carnifexes) to be much more of a problem.


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
 
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