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Hi Dakka,

ERB pg 559 "Unbound Armies" paragraph.

"The Unbound method is the easiest way to organise an army: simply use whichever units from your collection you want. Besides being a quick way to get your models on the tabletop, the Unbound method also allows you to try out exciting combinations in your army, such as fielding a whole force of Tanks or Flyers, or even of special characters" (last emphasis mine).

There don't appear to be any other rules in respect of unbound in the ERB which restrict which models/units can be included. In particular, there is no reference to models/units having to comply with codex requirements for their use.

So, in an unbound army can I take "support" characters, like Mordrak's ghost knights or Necron Royal Court characters, with Mordrak or an Overlord? (or Henchmen without an inquisitor?)

I think the answer is yes as the ERB/BRB overrules the Codex FOC requirements and there is specific permission to take whichever units you want.

Comments?

edit: for clarity

I asked a similar question about dedicated transports and the gereral opinion was why the hell not it does say take anything. The big question is does unit size still apply???

As some believe, any model I own I can take. I have 2 Imotekh the Stormlords, so I'm taking them both for double lightning.

I have 20 crypteks modelled with Chronometrons, so I'll take them all.

Unbound literally removes all restrictions and I can do whatever I want right?

You can only take 1 unique model in any army. So no taking both Stormlords.

Unbound removes all restrictions except that one I think.

Proof? If I can ignore codex restrictions of any way shape and form, how can I not take two Imotekhs by ignoring the Unique rule?

katfude wrote:
Proof? If I can ignore codex restrictions of any way shape and form, how can I not take two Imotekhs by ignoring the Unique rule?

You're told you can ignore Detachment restrictions, not codex restrictions.

It's a very grey area, and really in need of an FAQ.

The closest rule is "simply use whichever units from your collection you want". But this is unclear as to which restrictions the force is still bound by if any. Points value is certainly one restriction still in place.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

MarkCron wrote:

ERB pg 559 "Unbound Armies" paragraph.

" simply use whichever units from your collection you want. "

I'd have to say "simply use whichever units from your collection you want" means "simply use whichever units from your collection you want."

It does specifically say "units," therefore making me believe you still have to build the unit legally. IE no single tactical marines with missile launchers.

But as for unique characters, they tend to be unit selections by themselves. So if you have five Mephistons in your collection, then you can have Mephiston, Nephiston, Joephiston, Jimphiston, and Clyde from 5 different BA and BA descendent chapters.

However, according to RAW, you cannot borrow a Mephiston model for this purpose. It must be part of YOUR collection.

katfude wrote:
Thank you for agreeing with me.

Actually I'm going to ask you back up your proposal with some rules

Is this the only rule you're using? "simply use whichever units from your collection you want"

So first of all, do you believe this removes the need for points cost?

I don't see all that "grey area"...
" [...] simply use whichever unit (et cetera)" is pretty self-explanatory, it's sufficient not trying and add any interpretation.

E.G (please, disregard the effectiveness in play)
Unbound gk 2kish points
Unit: callidus (unit desc says it is unique)
Unit: culexus (unit desc says it is unique)
Unit: eversor (unit desc says it is unique)
Unit: vindicare (unit desc says it is unique)
Unit: purifiers (unit desc says at least 5 models)...
Unit: grand master
5x Unit: brotherhood champion (desc does not limit it, so it may be taken more than once)
2x Unit: librarian (not unique, again)

So do points limits still apply?
In a thousand points, I want to take my 10 Superheavies!
And the rule says "simply use whichever units from your collection you want"
A points restriction would seem to go against that rule.

So if that restriction applies, why does the "Unique" rule not?
Bit of a double standard. Is there a rules-based justification why one restriction applies but not another?

So, in answer to a couple of points:

ERB pg 560 Flyout box called "Unique Models" in "The Force Roster Section" it says : "Some models are noted as being Unique in their Army List Entry. Unique models include named charachters and extraordinary units or vehicles, of which there is only one known example in the whole galaxy. Because of this, you can only ever include one of each Unique model in an army."

Note that this does not specify whether the army is battle forged, has detachments or in unbound and so it appears that only 1 Unique applies to unbound armies as well.

Re points limits ERB 558, in the Preparing Your Army Section under the subheading Army Selection Methods.

"The first thing to determine is whether or not you and your opponent will be using points limits, and if so, what they are. Usually, both players will use the same points limit, but this does not need to be the case and is entirely up to you."

@Katfude : it appears that taking an unbound army allows you to ignore codex restrictions providing you take a "unit". However, the Rule book specifically prohibits Unique models.

@niv-mizzet : I agree that you need to build the unit legally, in terms of the wargear etc you can take (so no necron warriors with synaptic disintegrators). However, a ghost ark is a legal unit, even though it is a dedicated transport....so I can take that?

The question is, for the Royal court, which specifically says that the army has to include an overlord, can I take the Cryptek without the overlord?

It seems to come down to the meaning of "unit" and whether the army list rules applying to the unit are effective.

Logic dictates that the rules applying to the unit (eg wargear) must apply, but I can't find anything to support that.

So, that means that RAW, if I have a GK Strike squad armed with Railguns, I can use them as they are "models in your collection".

Seems like this issue is in need of an FAQ.

Rulebook says with Unbound, I can bring whatever I want.

Codex says that Royal Court can only be taken with an Overlord.

I'd be inclined to say the Codex restriction trumps the Rulebook, but its unclear.

I think it's worth noting here that "Detachment restrictions" are a very specific set of rules that are included in the FOC chart, not elsewhere. See p120 for a definition, and p122 for an example.

Things like:
"Draigo makes Paladins Troops"
and "Honour Guard only when you have a CM"
are NOT Detachment Restrictions. They're restrictions put in place by the codex.

 jasper76 wrote:
Seems like this issue is in need of an FAQ.

Rulebook says with Unbound, I can bring whatever I want.

Codex says that Royal Court can only be taken with an Overlord.

I'd be inclined to say the Codex restriction trumps the Rulebook, but its unclear.

There's a common misconception there. Codex does not automatically trump Rulebook. Specific trumps general, which often means the specific rule is in the codex as an exception to the general rules in the main rulebook. That does not mean Codex > Rulebook.

 spycer wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Seems like this issue is in need of an FAQ.

Rulebook says with Unbound, I can bring whatever I want.

Codex says that Royal Court can only be taken with an Overlord.

I'd be inclined to say the Codex restriction trumps the Rulebook, but its unclear.

There's a common misconception there. Codex does not automatically trump Rulebook. Specific trumps general, which often means the specific rule is in the codex as an exception to the general rules in the main rulebook. That does not mean Codex > Rulebook.

Except in 6th where it was explicitly true. Did they remove it in 7th?

It was never true. The specific rule from sixth was this:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

 spycer wrote:
It was never true. The specific rule from sixth was this:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

Really? Page 7 of the 6th edition BRB:

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence.

I mean, sure - if you ignore that rule then it was never true... but I wouldn't recommend ignoring it.

That sentence is at the end of a long clarification on the basic rule itself and you are taking it out of context. The only time the codex > the BRB is when they DIRECTLY conflict, which is nearly never.

The way I see it:

BRB = take anything you want.
Codex = This transport is only available to this unit.

In this case the codex is more specific than the BRB. The BRB is a blanket statement. The codex says that a particular unit is only available if you have another specific unit.

I think the same logic applies to ghost knights, royal court, archon's court, henchmen, etc.

It one of those weird moments where your meant to actually apply narrative and ask your opponent as i cannot see unbound being allowed in any competitive environment so it comes down to narrative and opponenent agreeing.

I mean if my opponent was played pre-fall crisom slaughter and his lib was haunted by ghosts of his fallen squad and wanted to use the ghost knights rule i would let him.

But yes i would be nice to have a little structure even if the poibt is no structure just for these situes but I am inclined down the path of the codex says it has to be this thus applying structure to a blank canvas of take anything you want (heh reminds me of a japanese advert about being mugged 'take anythijg you want')

katana100 wrote:
It one of those weird moments where your meant to actually apply narrative and ask your opponent as i cannot see unbound being allowed in any competitive environment so it comes down to narrative and opponenent agreeing.

GW's own Throne of Skulls tournament is battleforged only (with detachment limitations.. so not much different than 6th to be honest).

With the unbound can I take chaos, space marines, and IG all in one list?

And do the still follow come the apocalypse rules or do unbound not follow the allies matrix?

You can take chaos, SM and IG in a battleforged list as long as you comply with the Detachment requirements (and the points limit).

And, unbound and bound both follow Allies matrix (BB, AoC, DA, CtA).

UsmcMidn,
They have greatly rewritten the Matrix and now include instructions for Armies with Come the Apocalypse alliance level units.

usmcmidn wrote:
With the unbound can I take chaos, space marines, and IG all in one list?

And do the still follow come the apocalypse rules or do unbound not follow the allies matrix?

Yes you can but you still have to follow rules for allies...

Nice think to try in case so as house rule is on make ig roll the desperate allies as choas marines dont give a damn we had a game like that it it work quite well and fluffy but obs talk it over with opponent. Remember unvound is meant to be so you can have a littlw fun and gw are trying to make it so you play with mission structure ans rules a bit yourself in friendly narrative games have fun!

 grendel083 wrote:

katfude wrote:
Proof? If I can ignore codex restrictions of any way shape and form, how can I not take two Imotekhs by ignoring the Unique rule?

You're told you can ignore Detachment restrictions, not codex restrictions.

It's a very grey area, and really in need of an FAQ.

The closest rule is "simply use whichever units from your collection you want". But this is unclear as to which restrictions the force is still bound by if any. Points value is certainly one restriction still in place.

This is how I pretty much interpret it. I can't take a royal court until I have an overlord even if I'm unbound because the codex restricts me. Unbound, I believe, is so you can field units of whatever you want. It doesn't mean that I can take the same special character over and over again or 100 squads composed of a single tactical marine sergeant.

It's more for people like me who when asked to play a low point skirmish or narrative campaign, don't want to spend 220 points on an overlord and 2 5 man warrior squads before I'm allowed to pick what I want for my army. Instead, I can decide I want a small elite detachment of units that are more suitable for a small skirmish making them more fun. I find myself enjoying lower points games as a result as, generally, you had to deck out the overlord and fill out the warrior squads so that they aren't just dead weight.

If someone wants to push the limits, then I'm going to assume that the players they play against are very patient.