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Kyutaru wrote:


But let's talk about that crippling attempt of yours... with a single toe in any ruins, Be'lakor is essentially invincible on his own,

Area terrain no longer exists. He has to be 25% obscured for cover.

Ruins you just need to touch for a 4+ cover save. Check out the rules for any of the battlefield terrain ruins.

Kyutaru wrote:


But let's talk about that crippling attempt of yours... with a single toe in any ruins, Be'lakor is essentially invincible on his own,

sorry, why am I shooting at the one or two units with inviisbility or cover saves again?

instead of the low hanging fruit?

also, was all the "ignores cover stuff" magically dissapeared in 7th... i think not.

I guess if the guy you play against is really bad at the game and wants to waste all his shooting on the toughest unit to kill... but thats not a problem with D factory.

if you are casting 6 summons on 6-7 dice, using up 36-42 WC's, how are you also casting two invis on 4+ dice each... getting a bit carried away with your sky is falling crazyness there my man.

not to mention, how are you shooting anything with your witchfires without WC's...

also, you only get one shot with the pink horrors to summon, at some point, a herald or non BOP's is going to have to make the roll, perils does in fact matter. even if a pink horror perils, its one model down, in what is likely a MSU, can force a morale/instability check, and can even blow up the rest of the unit, or make him FORGET A SPELL/lose warp charges.


add to this the fact that I am guaranteed to be removing models, let alone sniping and barraging out your biggest WC" producers like heralds, and you are essentially trying to spawn more units per turn then I can kill, and not hurting me at all while doing it.

add to this that any mobile army can crowd out your table edge and totally shut down your summons,

as for playing against demons... did you not notice the poll? expect a bat rep next week.

Kyutaru wrote:You're not believable unless you've actually played against daemons, part of the reason this entire topic is worthless.

Firstly, that's a fallacy. Several of them, in fact.

Secondly, what makes demons different than any other foot list?

Because a demon factory is going to be going up against missileside tau, and shuriken spam eldar, and venom/splinter spam DE, and FRF lasguns backed up by punishers. The list goes on and on and on of armies that can easily throw away whatever flimsy units you're spawning. I used to play INFINITELY RESPAWNING guard, and that still didn't cut it, and old conscripts didn't rely on units summoning them.

You just have to look at the numbers to see the kinds of killing power problems going both ways that a demon army has. Of course, you can use fallacies to dismiss objective reality all you want, but that won't change it.

 Ailaros wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:You're not believable unless you've actually played against daemons, part of the reason this entire topic is worthless.

Firstly, that's a fallacy. Several of them, in fact.

Secondly, what makes demons different than any other foot list?

Because a demon factory is going to be going up against missileside tau, and shuriken spam eldar, and venom/splinter spam DE, and FRF lasguns backed up by punishers. The list goes on and on and on of armies that can easily throw away whatever flimsy units you're spawning. I used to play INFINITELY RESPAWNING guard, and that still didn't cut it, and old conscripts didn't rely on units summoning them.

You just have to look at the numbers to see the kinds of killing power problems going both ways that a demon army has. Of course, you can use fallacies to dismiss objective reality all you want, but that won't change it.

What separates Daemon Factory from respawning Guard or Tyranids/Tervigons/Scarab swarm is that they can spawn most units in their codex and that they can have the spawned units spawn more things.

It'd be like if Tervigons could birth more Tervigons (ignoring the looney toons physics needed for that).

Now anyone who can kill foot hordes can kill an exponentially growing sea of horrors too. Just make sure you get them quickly before their side of the board is nothing but an endless ocean of pink with flecks of blue LoCs and Daemon Princes.

But it's not exponentially growing. It only does that in a complete vacuum where your opponent refuses to hurt your units.

And remember, that exponent curve cuts both ways. If you can quickly put the hurt on the demon player, he will fold just as quickly as he will blossom if left alone.

Most 16x horror units won't last more then three CC phases with basic CC units like scorpions or assault marines. Add some shooting on the way in and you are likely to eliminate the unit in 2.

Now you need 9 dice to get a summon off reliably. So three units of horrors allow you to summon one unit each turn. So the 6 units will generate two units each turn if unopposed.

Horrors are still approximately the cost of a Assault Marine, right? So you could easily face 6x assault marine squads plus some support by turn 2.

So on turn 2, your 8 horror units (6+2 summoned) get 2-3 more summoned units, then you lose 6. So now for turn 3, you are down to 5 squads and the potential to lose another 6.

40 dice is only enough for 4-5 summonings. You also are taking 2 perils each turn. Can you out summon the damage? If the dice are with you perhaps, but it is by no means assured.

It's got seriousy strengths and serious weaknesses.

 Ailaros wrote:
Because a demon factory is going to be going up against missileside tau, and shuriken spam eldar, and venom/splinter spam DE, and FRF lasguns backed up by punishers. The list goes on and on and on of armies that can easily throw away whatever flimsy units you're spawning. I used to play INFINITELY RESPAWNING guard, and that still didn't cut it, and old conscripts didn't rely on units summoning them.

So... more theorycrafting is your response. Gotcha.

If I need assistance inventing new vacuum techniques to use against hypothetical daemon players, I'll hit you up. Experience counts a lot more currently. This isn't debate class either, just a forum where opinions are dropped, so all the fallacious claims in the world aren't going to make your side any more realistic, rather they'll decrease the chances of them being taken seriously. Attempting to depose my stance when it's founded in actual gameplay doesn't make your argument any better.

Kyutaru wrote:So... more theorycrafting is your response. Gotcha.

It's a basic deconstruction of the rules.

I mean, are you saying that missileside tau doesn't exist, or that there are no armies with FRF lasguns, or that DE players don't take splinter spam?

The game allows you to do things that can easily tackle a demon factory. You just need to read the rules to be able to see that it is true. If you insist on subjectivity, then all I can ask is how many anecdotes you need to see to be convinced that something which is possible is, in fact, possible?

I play tyranid as a main, and I can't really see a counter to this deamon factory, which means I have at least 2 codex's that my army is useless against.
That god I bought an AM list, or I'd be completely out of this game for this expansion.

Honestly, been hearing a lot of good things about warmachine, was thinking about trying to start it up, think my local gaming store is probably going to be moving away from 40k anyhow, since it seems like there selling practices have gotten worse and very few people have been playing recently (alot have moved on the playing MTG)

So far, we've seen Daemon Factory lists winning. Unless you tailor to beat them, I doubt you stand much of a chance.

I think it's broken, but let's just stay in a hold pattern until more battle reports come out.

And I mean battle reports that don't involve the random cards of "I drew a better first hand, thus I win!" Because almost every report using them has said they're garbage.

Durandal wrote:
Most 16x horror units won't last more then three CC phases with basic CC units like scorpions or assault marines. Add some shooting on the way in and you are likely to eliminate the unit in 2.

Now you need 9 dice to get a summon off reliably. So three units of horrors allow you to summon one unit each turn. So the 6 units will generate two units each turn if unopposed. (you cant cast the same power, one unit, gets ONE chance to summon per turn, if it fails, thats it, done)
Horrors are still approximately the cost of a Assault Marine, right? So you could easily face 6x assault marine squads plus some support by turn 2.

So on turn 2, your 8 horror units (6+2 summoned) get 2-3 more summoned units, then you lose 6. So now for turn 3, you are down to 5 squads and the potential to lose another 6.

40 dice is only enough for 4-5 summonings. You also are taking 2 perils each turn. Can you out summon the damage? If the dice are with you perhaps, but it is by no means assured.

just FYI, its actually worse for the D factory then you think, cant summon more then one unit per unit, you only get one shot to manifest a power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sorris wrote:
I play tyranid as a main, and I can't really see a counter to this deamon factory, which means I have at least 2 codex's that my army is useless against.
That god I bought an AM list, or I'd be completely out of this game for this expansion.

Honestly, been hearing a lot of good things about warmachine, was thinking about trying to start it up, think my local gaming store is probably going to be moving away from 40k anyhow, since it seems like there selling practices have gotten worse and very few people have been playing recently (alot have moved on the playing MTG)

what?


nids are one of the best counters to this.. you have loads of cheap, fast flyers like gargoyles to swamp the demons table side with to prevent summonng, you have lots of large rate of fire guns, on flying MC's no less, who also have huge bases to swamp the demons table side with, again, preventing summoning....

he is EITHER shooting you with those WC's or summoning, he cant do both UBER well... his perils will also be much worse due to your SITW...

I think you are jumping to a false conclusion, NIDS are one of the best lists to counter this.

Kyutaru wrote:

 easysauce wrote:


But let's talk about that crippling attempt of yours... with a single toe in any ruins, Be'lakor is essentially invincible on his own, but then he starts casting Invisibility. Have you ever attempt to leaf-blow an invisible Daemon unit? Good luck on that. This even assumes you're playing against a friendly Daemon Factory devoted to summoning, not one of the unfriendly ones devoted to Possession. They typically carry Fateweaver with them. Have you ever fought an invisible Fateweaver before? It's not an experience I recommend trying. He is impossible to kill.

By all means, attempt an alpha strike. Not everyone plays with zero terrain on the field and no objectives to go after. Heck, one game at our store, the guy playing Daemons had horrible luck rolling his summons. But it didn't matter because he still won just by controlling the most objectives, tying up the enemy army with just enough summoned nuisances to stall him. If you think you can stop these armies using these tactics, then DO IT. But please... don't patronize the rest of us with different experiences. There's a single topic on this forum claiming Daemons are not a threat and countless more stating the opposite. Play it yourself and come up with an informed decision.

The daemon factory has a lot of units. they cant all have invisibility. Shoot the units of horrors that don't have invis and their warp change, and units capable of summoning without caring about perils decreases dramatically.

At ~1500-1850 a Deamon Factory will likely average around 36WC/Turn.

With 6 Dice you have a ~2/3 chance of success and ~1/4 chance of perils.
6 Attempts yields on average 4 Summoned units which bring an additional 4 WC or another 1/3 Unit.

Pumping Summoning an average Daemon factory pumps out ~300pt/turn focusing their entire army on Summoning and averaged ~1 Perils/Turn.


Denying a 3WC power is nigh impossible, so save all those Deny dice for Sacrifice which is by far the nastiest Summoning power on the list as it brings in 2WC.

No double up castings of Summoning per unit, nor any power. Which means Heralds may not be hiding within the Horrors if they intend to manifest summoning powers.


Now, I haven't gotten to put the models on the table and face a Daemon Factory yet, but I see many points of possible failure with the mainstays facing fast assault or shooty armies, getting second turn, and a low offensive potential.


IMO I've far less worried about Daemon Factory than I was of the nasty ScreamerStar and Flying Circus builds which have now taken a major hit.

exergy, you might want to fix the quotes in your post two above this one lol


to the post directly above, exactly! so many ways for d factory to go wrong, and even when it goes right, a competent opponent will either be removing more models then you add each turn, or will use mobility to shut down your summoning completly.

Kyutaru wrote:

See, if you say things like this, it just goes to show you're theorycrafting rather than actually testing. You're not believable unless you've actually played against daemons, part of the reason this entire topic is worthless. The lists I've created and fought against can conjure up 38 warp charges per turn. If I split those evenly, you're looking at 7+ warp charges devoted to each summoning attempt. Perils? Feth perils. You lose a single pink horror every time one perils, and it's unlikely to begin with in a daemon army. Once pink horrors start summoning pink horrors, you're getting way more daemon summoning power per turn, it ramps up in effectiveness turn after turn unless you can cripple it from the beginning.

Ok lets do theoryhammer and make it simple, if you have a unit of 16 horrors I have to kill 6 to turn 3 warp charges to 1 warp charge. WIth drop pods, barrage, smart missiles this should not be hard to do. If you are using heralds then most of my fire power is going into that squad especially when its most likely in a squad of horrors(2 for 1). Heralds have 2 wounds if you are rolling 6-9 dice to summon more daemons you will perils leaving you with one wound and in danger of barrage.

Offensively what does the daemon factory has going for itself, it needs to kill stuff right?

I don't have to kill all your horrors I just have to kill a handful to reduce your warp charge pool, I think a Tau or IG gun line can kill 18 horrors from 3 different squads in 1 turn, which turns 9 warp charges into 3.

Against cc armies your small conjured squads have to fight for objectives against dedicated cc units and we both know how daemonic instability works, which means you are in danger of losing multiple units in one charge.

The whole point is yes they can have 30+ warp charges but your 6 t 3 models away from reducing it down. Once you have reduce all the big squads to only one warp charge each they literally will have to have 6 horror squads on the board to have enough warp charges to on average summon another squad. 4 lv 3 heralds mean you have 12 dice which means 2 summons worth of warp charges. Its not theoryhammer its stats.

Just going to point out that everyone talking about " Needing 9 dice reliably".

Yeah uh.. no.

Blue Scribes can cast a spell for free.

Chaos Sorcerers with a Spell Familiar can reroll failures. Oh and Crimson Slaughter can make that guy a Daemon. So yeah . ... NO. Or just take a Daemon Prince.

Getting spells off is the least of the armies worries.

Hollismason wrote:
Just going to point out that everyone talking about " Needing 9 dice reliably".

Yeah uh.. no.

Blue Scribes can cast a spell for free.

Chaos Sorcerers with a Spell Familiar can reroll failures. Oh and Crimson Slaughter can make that guy a Daemon. So yeah . ... NO. Or just take a Daemon Prince.

Getting spells off is the least of the armies worries.

That's because most of the suggestions in here are coming from people who don't own half the books their talking about. It really shows.

Barraging heralds isn't as easy as you'd think, putting them in chariots or buildings solves this real easy and the chariots are awesome now. Slaanesh heralds would be choice number one for me if I played demons. Ignoring wyverns, fast and adding more invisibility attempts? Yes please.

all summoning attempts should come from horrors anyway so perils is a joke.

I don't think the list is that much a problem if you play reasonable point levels. At 1500 pretty much all the worst offenders in this edition vanish or become much more tame.

Y'all keep claiming that Psyker ICs in a BoP unit will have severely limited casting ability.

If you are correct, then you can, I'm sure, easily answer a few simple questions.
Three Tzeentch Heralds all attached to a unit of Pink Horrors. Please explain:
1. Whether the Pink Horrors could, at that point, cast a power known to one of the Tzeralds.
2. How you would resolve a Perils if one of the Psykers in the unit rolled a double 6.
Use some quotations from the BRB in your explanation.
(debate is in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/597151.page#6878341)

When you come to the logical conclusion, that the rules in fact are broken and do not cover this situation, feel free to read the Proposed Rules I drew up.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597632.page

Why would you attach 3 Heralds to a pink horror squad?

I also agree that 9 dice is not what will happen. You will 5 dice it on multiple units of pink horrors as this gives you the best output.

Perils and sacrifice are a joke on the pink horrors as well.

Your heralds are cheap WC and help you fish for other powers than summoning. Sacrifice is probably the best conjuration, possession is extremely useful, and cursed earth is a very important power to get off at least once (1 dice it btw if you have multiples) due to no scatter DS.

Heralds in buildings are often bad idea as they can no longer use any of the conjurations and barrage became a lot more reliable with how they treat roofs now.

Blue scribes have a 1/3 chance to get a witchfire and a 50% chance to use a conjuration. They would be broken good if getting the conjuration off anytime during the game was equal but getting the right daemon in the right place at the right time is how this list can actually win games. Not by just conjuring random dudes anywhere and hoping the opponent waits 3 turns for you to prepare.

Chaos sorcerer will murder himself for sure if you use any of the high WC powers on the malefic chart. He is awesome at getting the WC1 powers off and possession could be worthwhile if you use it well but a CSM sorcerer with the ML and spell familiar you are likely to bring to get those powers is pretty expensive compared to 5 WC and pink horrors.

 ansacs wrote:

Blue scribes have a 1/3 chance to get a witchfire and a 50% chance to use a conjuration. They would be broken good if getting the conjuration off anytime during the game was equal but getting the right daemon in the right place at the right time is how this list can actually win games. Not by just conjuring random dudes anywhere and hoping the opponent waits 3 turns for you to prepare.

That's why the people who have actually PLAYED these lists keep attesting to the Daemonic power. Whereas all we're seeing from the rest of them is even -- more -- theorycrafting. In a perfect world, Tau would get overrun by Khorne Berserkers and be useless every game because clearly melee is their weakness. How often does that actually happen?

I've only played with Daemons once in this edition (or rather I only played one game this edition) thus far, but I've simply failed to cast Summoning. How many dice do you people usually throw down to try and cast this?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596200.page
You need 5 dice for a 50% chance to summon. If you have multiple summoning units 5 dice on each is optimal. If you have 1 summoning unit you will need 7+ dice to give a good chance. CSM with spell familiar have much better chances.

 Red Corsair wrote:
That's because most of the suggestions in here are coming from people who don't own half the books their talking about. It really shows.

I do own all the books and it shows!

 Red Corsair wrote:
Barraging heralds isn't as easy as you'd think, putting them in chariots or buildings solves this real easy and the chariots are awesome now. Slaanesh heralds would be choice number one for me if I played demons. Ignoring wyverns, fast and adding more invisibility attempts? Yes please.

At which point you are spending points on other things lowering the number of warp charges you have, and hiding in a building tactic doesn't work in 7th edition.

 Red Corsair wrote:
all summoning attempts should come from horrors anyway so perils is a joke.

Killing horrors is a joke, a player can kill enough horrors to lower your warp charge count with ease, I stated it earlier how hard is it to kill 6 of 16 horrors?

 Red Corsair wrote:
I don't think the list is that much a problem if you play reasonable point levels. At 1500 pretty much all the worst offenders in this edition vanish or become much more tame.

You are right here my friend not because its omg to powerful but because of time restraints a new phase adds at a minimum 40 minutes to the game lowering points is a must.

 ansacs wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596200.page
You need 5 dice for a 50% chance to summon. If you have multiple summoning units 5 dice on each is optimal. If you have 1 summoning unit you will need 7+ dice to give a good chance. CSM with spell familiar have much better chances.

Don't forget you can always play Crimson Slaughter and make him a Daemon for like 30 points and just negate the rolling ones all together and then he gets a +1 from Cursed Earth, Yay.

Actually lot of theory crafting here.

It's a really good army but it's actually kind of complex and a lot things to keep track of and a lot of decision making.

What's not complex is when you start getting into Eldar Allied with Daemons is straight up horrific. Once you actually start digging into the other codexes codei? it gets rough. Especially with Eldar.

Also they have trouble with AV14 so yea that's a thing. Don't kill the Heralds, kill the ones that are summoned. Then kill the Heralds, target anything that has Psychic Power and is summoned.

Hollismason wrote:
Don't forget you can always play Crimson Slaughter and make him a Daemon for like 30 points and just negate the rolling ones all together and then he gets a +1 from Cursed Earth, Yay.

True though then it is limited to joining possessed units. Could still be good though.

Hollismason wrote:
Actually lot of theory crafting here.

Yeah this army has been around all of a week. I don't think anyone is an expert yet. However some things can be extrapolated.

Hollismason wrote:
It's a really good army but it's actually kind of complex and a lot things to keep track of and a lot of decision making.

This army may be the most book keeping and require the most knowledge of your codex of any army I have seen or played.

Hollismason wrote:
What's not complex is when you start getting into Eldar Allied with Daemons is straight up horrific. Once you actually start digging into the other codexes codei? it gets rough. Especially with Eldar.

GK psybacks w/ psyker/henchman and CWE farseers could both add a fair amount to the army in terms of cheap psychic batteries that are tougher than the pink horrors. However I need to make some enslaved models for them. The interesting thing is that the CD list doesn't loose too much from becoming an ally as you don't want the warp table, you want 1 HQ of 4 heralds, and 2 big units of pink horrors wouldn't be too bad if you had extra WC and something capable of putting out some damage turn 1.

Hollismason wrote:
Also they have trouble with AV14 so yea that's a thing. Don't kill the Heralds, kill the ones that are summoned. Then kill the Heralds, target anything that has Psychic Power and is summoned.

I would agree that AV14 and SH walkers are somewhat troublesome. Pretty much all of the daemon answers to these either require some serious luck rolling up the right gifts/powers or cannot charge for a turn after summoned.

Here's my proposed "Old McDaemon Had A Farm" killer.



I kept it more TAC. I can tweak points, drop a sentinel and get some more lascannon to help with higher armor. Basically, quantity has a quality all itself.

I am putting Yarrick, a Priest, and the Liber Heresius Inquisitor in one blob and scouting it forward. The other gains a priest and Inuisitor and trudges along. Both are now immune to psychic powers, to flickering fire cannot hurt me. I am a walking wall of oncoming death for the army as I now have FRF, SRF BS10 Lasguns on 50 conscripts they cannot kill without engaging in close combat. With Zealot and Warhymns, I have a good chance of crushing stuff like units of pink horrors in close combat.

The amount of S7 shots are there to make sure heralds cannot hide. Yes, they won't kill Nurgle Heralds, but applying those S7 wounds last to horrors will make them sweat for their heralds.

The scouting Sentinels are there to help snipe hidden heralds outside of LOS and not worth dropping Wyverns on.

Yes, that's 3 Hydras. They could be dead wait, but if they bring Fateweaver or any other FMC, like Be'lakor, I'm going to put the hurt on it. BAD. And then make sure they'll be eating a bunch of fearless conscripts in close combat.

The platoons blob to maximize the one Vox and I can use ignores cover orders to snipe out any plague heralds.

Yarrick is a beatstick who can at least stand up to daemon beat sticks, if necessary. And it's Yarrick.

I said screw even attempting psykers because it would seem in the early stages of 7E, either go big or stay away from the psychic phase. I'd like to think this list is fairly competitive and can really put the hurt on clown car lists and other types, as well.

 TheKbob wrote:
Here's my proposed "Old McDaemon

Spoiler:

Had A Farm" killer.

[spoiler]Imperial Guard
-Yarrick
-Priest
-Priest

Infrantry Platoon
-50x Conscripts
-PCS (Vox, Autocannon)
-Infantry Squad (Autocannon, Vox)
-Infantry Squad (Autocannon)
-HWS (3x Autocannons)

Infrantry Platoon
-50x Conscripts
-PCS (Vox, Autocannon)
-Infantry Squad (Autocannon, Vox)
-Infantry Squad (Autocannon)
-HWS (3x Autocannons)

-Sentinel Squadron (Autocannon)
-Sentinel Squadron (Autocannon)

-Hydra Battery (3x Hydras)
-Wyvern Battery (3x Wyverns)
-Wyvern Battery (3x Wyverns)

Inquision
-Ordo Hereticus (Power Armor, Liber Heresius, Psyocculum, Null Rod)
-Ordo Hereticus (Power Armor, Psyocculum, Null Rod)

I kept it more TAC. I can tweak points, drop a sentinel and get some more lascannon to help with higher armor. Basically, quantity has a quality all itself.

I am putting Yarrick, a Priest, and the Liber Heresius Inquisitor in one blob and scouting it forward. The other gains a priest and Inuisitor and trudges along. Both are now immune to psychic powers, to flickering fire cannot hurt me. I am a walking wall of oncoming death for the army as I now have FRF, SRF BS10 Lasguns on 50 conscripts they cannot kill without engaging in close combat. With Zealot and Warhymns, I have a good chance of crushing stuff like units of pink horrors in close combat.

The amount of S7 shots are there to make sure heralds cannot hide. Yes, they won't kill Nurgle Heralds, but applying those S7 wounds last to horrors will make them sweat for their heralds.

The scouting Sentinels are there to help snipe hidden heralds outside of LOS and not worth dropping Wyverns on.

Yes, that's 3 Hydras. They could be dead wait, but if they bring Fateweaver or any other FMC, like Be'lakor, I'm going to put the hurt on it. BAD. And then make sure they'll be eating a bunch of fearless conscripts in close combat.

The platoons blob to maximize the one Vox and I can use ignores cover orders to snipe out any plague heralds.

Yarrick is a beatstick who can at least stand up to daemon beat sticks, if necessary. And it's Yarrick.

I said screw even attempting psykers because it would seem in the early stages of 7E, either go big or stay away from the psychic phase. I'd like to think this list is fairly competitive and can really put the hurt on clown car lists and other types, as well. [/spoiler]

My big recommendation would be something that can scratch high toughness GUO, GMC, and AV14 buildings.

The null rods conscripts is a nice touch.