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Yeah the same gak I've been posting about for the last I dunno 5 days, shocking.

If you don't do gak to your opponent and bring some offense , you just sit around going " DER DERP DERP ". It's why allying is good and not going for a insane 45 or more Warp charge and just like 25 to 30 to start off with.

It's not surprising in the least but yeah , that and people functionally don't seem to understand how to play it.

gretchin!

at 2k i figured out i can take 46 units of 10 grots and a runtherd. ignore the enemy, just take tactical objecives and survive the game (and they ain't going to kill 46 separate units in a game!)

Congrats on the win, it would be nice if you could post both armies.



Here is a thread I made, Limitations to Know and Understand for Summoned Daemons



Edit: @Hollisman, would you please post a sample of one of these unbeatable Daemon Factories that uses allies, has massive amounts of WC, and still has offense and survivability?

I literally already made a thread that breaks the whole army down. Read the 99 problems thing.

I'll post something later to give a example I'm off to work.

I wanted to play test the daemon factory, hollismason could you tell me a good 1850 daemon factory list to play test. I have followed your post closely so I have a good idea of how to play just want to see it on the table top.

Hollismason wrote:
I literally already made a thread that breaks the whole army down. Read the 99 problems thing.

I'll post something later to give a example I'm off to work.

I did see your thread, and yes I did read the suggested detachments etc, but I fail to see the paramount threat you suggest.

I would like to see a sample 1850 list you believe makes the Daemon Factory unstoppable, or a serious contender. Show me the list that will crush 6 Objective Secured Wave Serpents +600pts of extras at 1850. Especially if it has to go 2nd. Show me the lists that will beat Calgar and 6 full squads Objective Secured Tacticals in Rhinos or Razorbacks + ~500pts at 1850. That is what I want to see.

I think Daemon Factory can be an effective strategy, but I just don't believe that in this edition, the edition of Mobile and Preferably Mechanized Objective Secured Scoring, that Daemon Factory will lord over everything else. I just don't see it breaking this edition.

First turn vs second is paramount for daemons BTW (unless you DS them in). The reason being is that against a competent opponent it will be getting 2-3 more conjurations off and having daemons on the table who are an actual threat rather than your conjuration daemons who are not a threat.

A pure conjuration list really is just a gimmick. I think there is probably a mix that can be brought to a tournament level however it has a major uphill fight in a 7 round GT. I would be massively more confident in serpent spam, ravenguard rhino rush, and objective secured landraider crusader inquisition with imperial knight allies than in a d factory.

Interestingly the strength of d factory is NOT conjuring a bunch of daemons. It is essentially getting a tailored list against your opponent with the draw back that your tailored list cannot act until turn ~2.

d factory just isn't the list most of the internet imagines it as.

Honestly, as a guard player, I would LOVE for someone in my locale to play this 'zomgerd totez brokez' Demon list. At 1850 it would be comical how quickly the table would be devoid of demonspawn.

On a side note, wouldn't this list be better in smaller point games? I know that lower the points means lower amount of WC spam, but even if they can get 1-2 extra units a turn, that would be pretty frustrating to deal with in say a 1k game.

Either way, friend of mine just got the new ruleset and is starting Demons, so we'll have to see just how lucky he is.

 SisterSydney wrote:

....and this was a game where he was LUCKY the first few rounds getting first turn and every summon off... just imagine if he had gone second...

With Daemon Factory, going first vs going second may not be such a big deal. The advantage they get from going first is that they get to use all their casters at least once before you start killing them.

But if they just sit there and summon, you can effectively alpha strike them even if they go first, which is...unique.

That is true but I think the point was if If I go first v a Summoning army I am going to target either as many level 3 heralds as I can and/or the casters who have the GD summoning spells. It is a big deal for the summoning army If I kill 1-2 heralds and remove the big summoning spells as well.

Fine here is a list that will cause people to hate you.

HQ
Fateweaver
Herald w/ Grimoire
Herald w/ Portaglyph
Herald w/ Disc
Herald w/ Disc
Troops
1 x 14 Pink Horrors
1 x 14 Pink Horrors

Total : 982

Allied ( Eldar)
Farseer w/ Aharahrahrharha stones, Rune of Witnessing, Jetbike


9 Warlocks 5 w/ Spears , Jetbikes

Troops
Windrider Squad x 5
Windrider Squad x 5

Also I think the eldar stuff is right but I can't remember values as I can't find my book but I think it's close.
Total : 1793
Warp Charge : 33 + 50% for 1 more + D6 Average 3 so 36 to 37.

Oh also the army is reversible, if you want to you can swap out Fateweaver save a 160 points and buy more gak. You just reverse the Primary to Eldar and take another Farseer with runes of warding.

How does this work?????????


Okay so here is a chart that has math.

Odds of getting Spell on ML1 is 1 - (5/6) = 1/6

Odds of getting Spell on ML2 is 1 - (5/6*4/5) = 1/3

Odds of getting Spel on ML3 is 1 - (5/6*4/5*3/4) = 1/2

So roughly for every "5 individual rolls you make you get like a 95% by that point to get Possession". Odds are odds , statistics are statistics.

So how does that work?

Rolling Order
Pink Horror
Pink Horror
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Stop - Should have Possession By this point.
If no Possesion you still have Summoning Spells depending on what you get.

Restart
Sanctum , your going for two very Specific Spells here either Hammerhand or Sanctuary. Since we have two choices to take we don't actually "double our odds".
So it goes
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
At this point you should have Sanctum or Hammerhand, hopefully both. Or if you are lucky Vortex of Doom. Because seriously that gak is awesome and it doesn't matter if you die or peril because the spell goes off.
Last 2 should be Conceal for each.

Farseer should fish for Fortune, if not after 3 Rolls , Oh well.

Why do we go for Sanctum?
+1 Invunerable
Why do we go for Hammerhand +2 STR
Why do we go for Vortex ?
Because its a goddamn Vortex Grenade

Remember even if they fail on a Sanctum and suffer a Perils they still have a shot of getting out of it with 2 Choices being a Leadership check and 1 Being a leadership check that makes you awesome.

Also, since it's a Warp Power 1, 2 Dice is a 75, 3 a bit better, but by 3 you'll perils like 27% of the time.

You can see where this is going....


Sanctum gives them a +1 to Invulnerable.. Fortune turns that into a 3++ Rerollable... Farseer can if getting Fortune Early go Malefic. Reduce the power by one which in turn increases his chances of success with less power dice and can use ghosthelm to ignore with one warp charge. He is a Summoning Beast.

With that much rolling on Sanctum, you should get at least Sanctuary once. If you keep rolling on it afterwards thats your business. You should just switch over everyone to trying for Possession.

You should at minimum with that many rolls get possession twice.

This isn't a overtly complicated army. It's literally two well known armies smashed together. So I mean there you go. You summon Daemons and Smash things.

Not gonna lie, I want to face that list. I think it would be fun. I think it would lose if I went first but it would be interesting to see how it worked. Wish my local scene was more tournament competative.

Still I might just have to bust out my own minis and proxy it.

If it goes first the first thing that's going to happen is 2 to 3 Greater GDs are gonna pop up its worth it to just burn 9 dice and suffer the perils if it's a squad or a individual because they get the spell off anyway and die. If you want to you can also swap thearmy . Eldar can be the Primary with a Farseer, drop Fateweaver and you have another 140 Points to spend. So you can get another 2 squads of Pinks. If you get Fortune from the first one, go all Malefic with the one that has the Ahaharahahrhahaha stones or even Sanctum to get a chance at Sanctuary and Vortex or Hammer Hand or Gate of Infinity which you don't really need I guess.

You can try to wipe it off the board on turn one but there's a reason there's two 5 man "these men are ablative wound squads".

All of the Heralds go in the Pink Horror Squads. That's another 28 Ablative wounds if you kill all 28 of them the armies lost 4 Warp Charge.

Also it can have Deathstars, with Cursed Earth and Grimoire. <- That's going to happen.

It can have another unit that has a 3++ <- that's like at a 70 to 80% likely hood. If it doesn't get Fortune , Oh well. It can still have a squad with a 2+ cover and 3+ invulnerable.

It's literally both Daemonology charts in one army, one of which gives you access to a ST D weapon. The other gives you Greater Daemons. Both of which are worth dieing for to get off.

Hollismason wrote:Sanctum gives them a +1 to Invulnerable.. Fortune turns that into a 3++ Rerollable... Farseer can if getting Fortune Early go Malefic. Reduce the power by one which in turn increases his chances of success with less power dice and can use ghosthelm to ignore with one warp charge. He is a Summoning Beast.

This is not actually true. The helm lets you ignore the wound from the perils but you could still loose the power, loose WC dice, or take wounds on the unit. With trying to get off sanctic powers each turn you will likely take one of the bad perils at some point.

Also D weapons are not what they were. I would not agree that a 3" blast is worth loosing the farseer in most cases. For the number of WC you have to dump into it, 3" blast, and the short range vortex of doom is not as useful as people think.

Also seer council lost it's game winning ability to break apart and contest all objectives turn 5. Without objective secured troops alive at the end of game you are almost assured to loose all the objectives to objective secured wave serpents.

Warlocks make pretty great possession fodder but they also generate a large number of warlocks that are worth far less than a herald as they perils every summoning attempt.

There is also the problem that your farseer does not have an invulnerable save due to the stones...there are a lot of tricks to kill off an unprotected psykers. Focus fire may be gone but vindicare assassins, LoS sniping, barrage sniping, and precision shot IG blobbs are all things.

You can go back and forth with scenarios and counter measures and it would be this weird Wizard dual that we started " I become a Dragon, Well I become a FLea".



The only goal your trying to get really is Possession on Warlocks and boosting how much Warp Charge you have. If you get Sanctuary or you get Vortex that's bonus with working with Sanctum.Also if their in the same squad you can only cast Sanctuary once. Same thing with the other spells. Except your possession guys. You only want to get Sanctuary Once.

No one is going to be around by the 6th turn.

This army isn't designed to "win" with a death star unit. The Eldar are there because it gives a a massive boost in ability. Shooting fighting, etc..Also the stones , allow a reduction in warp cost which increases your odds. Yeah he loses his invulnerable but he's still in a squad of 10 dudes with invulnerables.

IF he uses Malefic. Its really a possession engine, that's all it does is try to maximize the number of times you get possession if I get 2+ possessions and you don't wipe those units out. Well, that's 2 plus Greater Daemons on turn one.

The whole purpose is to get possession. There's not a single army that can stop 4 or more Greater Daemons in one turn. Especially if you go with Flyers. Flyers who can summon or Combat beasts like KofS.

It's actually kind of better to fish for Invisibility as well.

You have to kill every thing that has possession in one turn.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its a win big or go home army. Also your ignoring the other half of the army. Just saying.

Not to mention the 12 inch apocalypse rule, imagine rolling a one at the wrong time if you bunch up to avoid the bubble then template weapons will eat you up. Also that seer council which is basically what the list is has no hit and run, so it can and will be tied up. I see weaknesses in the list but its strengths are obvious also so I will give it a go.

Its not hard to keep your dudes away from each other. Also it's a 6inch bubble. You can't deploy with in 12. Also, Fateweaver let's you reroll it if you some how don't managed to keep it away from each other. If you go the other route with invisibilty instead of trying to get fortune, you can have the squad be 6s to hit, 2+ saves from conceal.

Tarpitting this unit is a cool idea until you realize they can summon Daemons while still in combat. Or just you know the entire rest of the army charges you. Or one of them turns into a KoS.

So, basically what I thought.

You have four objective secured units, all of which are extremely easy to kill. You have no effective way of deme hint an OS enemy army. By default you have pretty much lost most objective games versus good opponents with good lists.

And wow, can that army be alpha struck. Heck even a pair of Thunderfire Cannons makes this list cry.

Kill 16 T3 5++ troops and eliminate 8WC. Not to mention that Council can be hit hard T1 as well. Every perils kills a Warlock, almost. This list is so reliant on getting the right powers and many times it gets the power but not on a model that can keep it.

If you do get Possession you could feasible throw enough dice to bring in 3 Greater Daemons. Heck, that may even happen occasionally, but you aren't likely to have Possession more than 1-2 times. And it may be tough to keep that to more than two units. They aren't free and aren't assaulting for two turns. And that is if the Possession holder doesn't die. Or fail to cast, or actually get Denied.

Warlock rolls a Sanctuary, darn hell get to use it one or two turns before he kills himself.


Is this a potentially strong army, yes? Is it going to break 7th over its knee like Objective Secured Wave Serpents? No. Is this list going to consistently win GTs? No.

It's strong, I'm not denying that, but it's not broken strong. IMO, the scariest thing is Fateweaver with a 2++, but hey! you may be sacrificing me that Herald anyway, or I can just kill him.

 Zagman wrote:
So, basically what I thought.

You have four objective secured units, all of which are extremely easy to kill. You have no effective way of deme hint an OS enemy army. By default you have pretty much lost most objective games versus good opponents with good lists.

And wow, can that army be alpha struck. Heck even a pair of Thunderfire Cannons makes this list cry.

Kill 16 T3 5++ troops and eliminate 8WC. Not to mention that Council can be hit hard T1 as well. Every perils kills a Warlock, almost. This list is so reliant on getting the right powers and many times it gets the power but not on a model that can keep it.

If you do get Possession you could feasible throw enough dice to bring in 3 Greater Daemons. Heck, that may even happen occasionally, but you aren't likely to have Possession more than 1-2 times. And it may be tough to keep that to more than two units. They aren't free and aren't assaulting for two turns. And that is if the Possession holder doesn't die. Or fail to cast, or actually get Denied.

Warlock rolls a Sanctuary, darn hell get to use it one or two turns before he kills himself.


Is this a potentially strong army, yes? Is it going to break 7th over its knee like Objective Secured Wave Serpents? No. Is this list going to consistently win GTs? No.

It's strong, I'm not denying that, but it's not broken strong. IMO, the scariest thing is Fateweaver with a 2++, but hey! you may be sacrificing me that Herald anyway, or I can just kill him.

Possession will succeed every single time. Here's why : It doesn't matter if you die or Perils. 8 Dice I think is a 90%/ 88% chance because I don't care if my guy dies.

You're also ignoring the fact that you have to kill those 16 guys in one turn. Also, losing a squad of Pink Horrors does not affect the army at all. Hell kill all of them. Doesn't matter.Alpha strike is the main thing that kills it you have to kill every single summoner and reduce it below 20 Warp Charge before the end of the next turn or it just re ups and goes again.

I have to run out but yeah. It's a Possession engine. That's all it does. That's all it cares about. You need to kill every single model that has Possession on turn 1 and reduce it to below 20 Warp Charge. Other wise it starts back up and dumps a bunch of gak on you.

Your not going to have troops. We don't play to 2 turns. After the first turn is over and you don't kill those models. It's going to put an additional 1000 more points on the board.

Thunderfires "make this list cry?" , sure you will kill some models with thunderfire, but I'm going to get my LOS rolls. Each level 1 I get rid of, I get 2 Warp Charge. If I kill 4 Warlocks and summon 2 Greater Daemons and 2 Heralds of Tzeentch. The last of which have a about a 80 percent chance of getting another possession. That's 8 more points.You absolutely have to kill every summoner on turn one and reduce it below 20 Warp charge. You have to wipe out all ten of those Warlocks, every herald, every squad of Pink Horrors . If you do that you win.

that's letting you get the first turn. That was the goal you get the first turn, and try and wipe the army. So first turn that's what you have to do. Kill all of it.The Warlocks are there to die. I don't care if they get killed from Perils. that's what everyone is so worried about and it doesn't matter because we're not playing the same game. I'm playing point trade, your playing shoot my models that I point traded and still keep trying to stop me from point trading. Okay here you kill over half the army on turn one and we are in a wide open field. Let's just keep making up scenarios.Drop in half your army lets say 30 Sternguard in Drop Pods all with hellfire. That's not the point of the army. The point is to be viable and it is. It will wipe you off the board if it gets a initial summoning. You have to stop this.

Another one would be same list similar but dump the Eldar and go for a Leafblower from Imperial Guard.

Hollismason wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
So, basically what I thought.

You have four objective secured units, all of which are extremely easy to kill. You have no effective way of deme hint an OS enemy army. By default you have pretty much lost most objective games versus good opponents with good lists.

And wow, can that army be alpha struck. Heck even a pair of Thunderfire Cannons makes this list cry.

Kill 16 T3 5++ troops and eliminate 8WC. Not to mention that Council can be hit hard T1 as well. Every perils kills a Warlock, almost. This list is so reliant on getting the right powers and many times it gets the power but not on a model that can keep it.

If you do get Possession you could feasible throw enough dice to bring in 3 Greater Daemons. Heck, that may even happen occasionally, but you aren't likely to have Possession more than 1-2 times. And it may be tough to keep that to more than two units. They aren't free and aren't assaulting for two turns. And that is if the Possession holder doesn't die. Or fail to cast, or actually get Denied.

Warlock rolls a Sanctuary, darn hell get to use it one or two turns before he kills himself.


Is this a potentially strong army, yes? Is it going to break 7th over its knee like Objective Secured Wave Serpents? No. Is this list going to consistently win GTs? No.

It's strong, I'm not denying that, but it's not broken strong. IMO, the scariest thing is Fateweaver with a 2++, but hey! you may be sacrificing me that Herald anyway, or I can just kill him.

Possession will succeed every single time. Here's why : It doesn't matter if you die or Perils. 8 Dice I think is a 90%/ 88% chance because I don't care if my guy dies.

You're also ignoring the fact that you have to kill those 16 guys in one turn. Also, losing a squad of Pink Horrors does not affect the army at all. Hell kill all of them. Doesn't matter.Alpha strike is the main thing that kills it you have to kill every single summoner and reduce it below 20 Warp Charge before the end of the next turn or it just re ups and goes again.

I have to run out but yeah. It's a Possession engine. That's all it does. That's all it cares about. You need to kill every single model that has Possession on turn 1 and reduce it to below 20 Warp Charge. Other wise it starts back up and dumps a bunch of gak on you.

Your not going to have troops. We don't play to 2 turns. After the first turn is over and you don't kill those models. It's going to put an additional 1000 more points on the board.

Thunderfires "make this list cry?" , sure you will kill some models with thunderfire, but I'm going to get my LOS rolls. Each level 1 I get rid of, I get 2 Warp Charge. If I kill 4 Warlocks and summon 2 Greater Daemons and 2 Heralds of Tzeentch. The last of which have a about a 80 percent chance of getting another possession. That's 8 more points.

You absolutely have to kill every summoner on turn one and reduce it below 20 Warp charge. You have to wipe out all ten of those Warlocks, every herald, every squad of Pink Horrors . If you do that you win.

that's letting you get the first turn. That was the goal you get the first turn, and try and wipe the army. So first turn that's what you have to do. Kill all of it.

Objective Secured.



1000pts a turn, not happening, don't forget to subtract out the MLs you lose to make that happen. And the Turns those GDs don't do much.

Don't care about the Horrors, they are Objective Secured and protecting the Heralds. Possession a unit of Horrors, two Heralds out in the open. Lose a Herald for Possession, look at Net gain.

You make a lot of assumptions, cheery pick your points, and assume things are favorable. In a year, I'll gladly PM you an apology if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Actually if the unit of horrors uses possession while the herald is attached, the herald also dies I believe

Its a seer council list with no hit and run, that relies on the psychic powers for offense that's a serious problem in my opinion psychic powers are not guaranteed. What happens when only 1 warlock or 1 horror squad gets the power you need your in trouble, not to mention what happens if you don't get the power at all. Seer council without hit and run is hard for me to comprehend as a serious threat.

One thing people keep forgetting,

if you put a psyker character into a UNIT, making him a part of that unit for all purposes.

and that UNIT casts the summon greater demon power,

That UNIT is dead, including the IC's who are a part of it...

im sorry. what was that about spamming summons on greater demons?

have fun not doing anything for a min of 2 turns just to get a walking greater demon (3 turns if it has wings since it has to arrive, not move 1st turn, 2nd turn change flight modes, 3rd turn charge)

 Zagman wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
So, basically what I thought.

You have four objective secured units, all of which are extremely easy to kill. You have no effective way of deme hint an OS enemy army. By default you have pretty much lost most objective games versus good opponents with good lists.

And wow, can that army be alpha struck. Heck even a pair of Thunderfire Cannons makes this list cry.

Kill 16 T3 5++ troops and eliminate 8WC. Not to mention that Council can be hit hard T1 as well. Every perils kills a Warlock, almost. This list is so reliant on getting the right powers and many times it gets the power but not on a model that can keep it.

If you do get Possession you could feasible throw enough dice to bring in 3 Greater Daemons. Heck, that may even happen occasionally, but you aren't likely to have Possession more than 1-2 times. And it may be tough to keep that to more than two units. They aren't free and aren't assaulting for two turns. And that is if the Possession holder doesn't die. Or fail to cast, or actually get Denied.

Warlock rolls a Sanctuary, darn hell get to use it one or two turns before he kills himself.


Is this a potentially strong army, yes? Is it going to break 7th over its knee like Objective Secured Wave Serpents? No. Is this list going to consistently win GTs? No.

It's strong, I'm not denying that, but it's not broken strong. IMO, the scariest thing is Fateweaver with a 2++, but hey! you may be sacrificing me that Herald anyway, or I can just kill him.

Possession will succeed every single time. Here's why : It doesn't matter if you die or Perils. 8 Dice I think is a 90%/ 88% chance because I don't care if my guy dies.

You're also ignoring the fact that you have to kill those 16 guys in one turn. Also, losing a squad of Pink Horrors does not affect the army at all. Hell kill all of them. Doesn't matter.Alpha strike is the main thing that kills it you have to kill every single summoner and reduce it below 20 Warp Charge before the end of the next turn or it just re ups and goes again.

I have to run out but yeah. It's a Possession engine. That's all it does. That's all it cares about. You need to kill every single model that has Possession on turn 1 and reduce it to below 20 Warp Charge. Other wise it starts back up and dumps a bunch of gak on you.

Your not going to have troops. We don't play to 2 turns. After the first turn is over and you don't kill those models. It's going to put an additional 1000 more points on the board.

Thunderfires "make this list cry?" , sure you will kill some models with thunderfire, but I'm going to get my LOS rolls. Each level 1 I get rid of, I get 2 Warp Charge. If I kill 4 Warlocks and summon 2 Greater Daemons and 2 Heralds of Tzeentch. The last of which have a about a 80 percent chance of getting another possession. That's 8 more points.

You absolutely have to kill every summoner on turn one and reduce it below 20 Warp charge. You have to wipe out all ten of those Warlocks, every herald, every squad of Pink Horrors . If you do that you win.

that's letting you get the first turn. That was the goal you get the first turn, and try and wipe the army. So first turn that's what you have to do. Kill all of it.

Objective Secured.



1000pts a turn, not happening, don't forget to subtract out the MLs you lose to make that happen. And the Turns those GDs don't do much.

Don't care about the Horrors, they are Objective Secured and protecting the Heralds. Possession a unit of Horrors, two Heralds out in the open. Lose a Herald for Possession, look at Net gain.

You make a lot of assumptions, cheery pick your points, and assume things are favorable. In a year, I'll gladly PM you an apology if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's going to happen.

It's not assumptions it's math, if you summon 3 Greater Daemons, if they were all Lords of change that's 775 points using 24 warp charge @ 8 dice. 4 Greater Daemons at 32 Dice.

that's the issue, your not playing my game, I am playing something completely different. I'm using "points" to get rolls to get "more points". You have to stop my points.

Also I still need to maximize that list because it's only goal really is to roll for possession. I'm not going to use notation.

Okay let me explain it in math.

X is the amount I have to spend to get a % to get Y.
X is equal to the number of points I have to spend to get Y. When I get to 100% I get Y.
My efficiency is using my points to get higher percentage to get Y

That's it I only care about getting Y and getting more Y.

Because while we both start at 1850 , my goal is to go way beyond that.

This is why 5 50 point models or 250 points to get 94% is more efficient than 2 125 Point squads that are 250 that give me 33%.

I want each of my units to just give me percentages. The higher the percentage, the more likely I am to get Y.

So X = Points spent to raise my % to get Y


We're not playing 40k, I'm playing a dice game. You're playing 40k , your job is to stop me from playing my dice game. I'm going to try to maximize my points to get more chances at my dice game and prevent you from stopping me.

This is why

4 Heralds at Level 4
6 Squads of 11 Pink Horrors

And

1 Eldar Farseer
1 Eldar Farseer
10 Warlocks
5 Jetbikes
5 Jetbikes

Is 40 Warp Charge and a better "dice game for me" Why?
Because it increases my chances of getting 5 Ys to 99 Percent.

Oh hope that makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
One thing people keep forgetting,

if you put a psyker character into a UNIT, making him a part of that unit for all purposes.

and that UNIT casts the summon greater demon power,

That UNIT is dead, including the IC's who are a part of it...

im sorry. what was that about spamming summons on greater demons?

have fun not doing anything for a min of 2 turns just to get a walking greater demon (3 turns if it has wings since it has to arrive, not move 1st turn, 2nd turn change flight modes, 3rd turn charge)

Nope. That's only for units that have the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. Not for units of Psykers. There's a difference. If I have a unit of Pink Horrors with Sacrifice and a Herald with them and the Pink Horrors cast Possession. all of the pink horrors die . Not the Herald.

You can play the would could should rules, but your ignoring the fact that I can summon Greater Daemons that can in fact charge on the first turn. Or fly around and summon more Daemons.

nope, its for all powers, you need to re read the psychich powers section hollis...

its very VERY clear, you select a UNIT to cast a power.

a psyker in a unit of non psykers, the unit is ok, psyker dies.

but a IC pskyer in a unit with the BOP rule, the psyker and unit are both gone as the unit has the BOP rule, and the psyker is part of the unit for all purposes

No it isn't. Take it to YMDC you are just wrong. Also warlocks don't have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. The only one that has it is the Pink Horrors and it still doesn't even work that way.

Go make the thread I'll argue with you there. I hate rules derails in threads.

Possession

"If this power is successfully manifested, the Psyker is immediately removed as a casualty (if the Psyker was part of a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule, remove the entire unit as casualties). If, when using this power, the Psyker fails his Psychic test, he automatically suffers Perils of the Warp."


Under Independent Characters
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."



Very clear, Possess while Heralds are in a Unit of Pink Horrors loses the whole unit. Very very clear.

Kind of a moot point since you know thier ICs and can just leave the unit, but let's argue it out over in YMDC


Zagmon do you understand what I am saying about how I'm not playing the game the same way? Like I don't care if things die as long as I get my dice game? My goal is to protect my dice game , I don't care what you do.

Hollismason wrote:
Kind of a moot point since you know thier ICs and can just leave the unit, but let's argue it out over in YMDC


Zagmon do you understand what I am saying about how I'm not playing the game the same way?

And leave your Heralds out in the open or attach them to different Horrors. Works if you detach the Herald who has possession or detach the Herald(s) if the Horrors have it.

Either way, its a huge handicap if the detached Herald fails to cast the power, or is forced to be left in the open. Huge pain if you are going for Possession with Heralds and Horrors.

 Zagman wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Kind of a moot point since you know thier ICs and can just leave the unit, but let's argue it out over in YMDC


Zagmon do you understand what I am saying about how I'm not playing the game the same way?

And leave your Heralds out in the open or attach them to different Horrors. Works if you detach the Herald who has possession or detach the Herald(s) if the Horrors have it.

Either way, its a huge handicap if the detached Herald fails to cast the power, or is forced to be left in the open. Huge pain if you are going for Possession with Heralds and Horrors.

Not really so much on Pink Horrors, also probably gonna get the power off because Perilling doesn't matter. It's not a huge "handicap". Even if it does work that way ( which it might just not going argue here about it and it looks like what you posted is pretty clear".

@Holisman

Actually, I do. When It takes 1-3 turns to sacrifice a 120pt Herald to Summon a 230pt LOC, you have an opportunity cost involved. And if that Herald happens to be the one holding onto the Grimior, it is very costly. More than a Points trade, a capability reduction.

I look at Opportunity cost. Now, sacrificing a Warlock for a GD is a good trade, but with only one roll they is a very low chance of actually getting one. With 9 Warlocks its 20%. And not all Warlocks are rolling for it.

And every time a Possession goes off, that eliminates that capability from the army. You aren't rolling more Possessions on your GDs. Now, when summoning Heralds, yes, then you have the potential to add GDs the next turn assuming my army can't counter and kill lone Heralds by prioritizing any Herald that rolls Possession.


You see exponential growth through rose colored glasses, I see Opportunity cost.

And don't forget about how much Objective Secured can dominate this army by simple surviving and moving to win.