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 ansacs wrote:

My big recommendation would be something that can scratch high toughness GUO, GMC, and AV14 buildings.

The null rods conscripts is a nice touch.

Could squeeze in some Lascannons somewhere. Otherwise, a GUO would be locked up by a herd of Conscripts pretty nicely since he's slow. Av14 buildings are meh, if they hide in them, great. I'll vaporize everything else.

The only thing I can think of is to work in a Vendetta and put a SWS (3x Melta) into it. Lascannons can target fat guys and the dropped out melta can shoot the buildings. Yarrick can also pinch things, too.

I like the 2 scouting sentinels too much to drop them, though. People keep talking about hiding heralds and I'd want to stop that ASAP.

Edit:

"Old McDaemon Had A Farm; IG, IG-HO!"


Not sure if this is better, but at least I can engage with Av14 and do more herald hunting with deep striking Tempestus. Added a servo skull as bait and points filler. I could easily spam more, if I wanted to by cutting back autocannons on the Sentinels.

So now I have 4x BS4 Melta guns and lost one hydras and a bunch of Autocannons, but I think I'm still fine. The 100x BS10 vs. Psyker lasguns should put the hurt on anything in a farm star and still be painful against any other army that has psykers. You'll control where they are placed a great deal with that as it's assured to aid in squad vaporization. Yarrick's frontline orders will help with that!

Thoughts on Rev. 2?

Try to take some AV12, there's not much the army can do with destroying transports on the first turn or later as it has very low output on shooting.

I'd recommend Veterans in a Chimera w/ Flamers, H. Flamers. They get rid of things that are in mass and shrouded.

Looks like a very deadly list!!

Also replace some of the Autocannons with Mortar Squads or take H. Weapon Mortar Squads, remember if they use Sacrifice that guy is not part of the unit. He's all by his lonesome. Just snipe him. They're not super survivable unless it's a Herald of Nurgle.

Mortars really really hurt this army. Most everything troop wise has like T3.

I thought about mortars, but that's what Wyverns are for. The autocannons make it a better TAC list. Also, the outflanking sentinels are also there to snipe out hidden heralds.

And really, don't under estimate the power of those conscripts walking up complete with orders, immune to psychic powers, and BS10 versus psykers. I feel like those would do a great deal of heavy lifting in this army.

They can also reroll to hit and to wound in close combat.

 TheKbob wrote:

 ansacs wrote:

My big recommendation would be something that can scratch high toughness GUO, GMC, and AV14 buildings.

The null rods conscripts is a nice touch.

Could squeeze in some Lascannons somewhere. Otherwise, a GUO would be locked up by a herd of Conscripts pretty nicely since he's slow. Av14 buildings are meh, if they hide in them, great. I'll vaporize everything else.

The only thing I can think of is to work in a Vendetta and put a SWS (3x Melta) into it. Lascannons can target fat guys and the dropped out melta can shoot the buildings. Yarrick can also pinch things, too.

I like the 2 scouting sentinels too much to drop them, though. People keep talking about hiding heralds and I'd want to stop that ASAP.

Edit:

"Old McDaemon Had A Farm; IG, IG-HO!"

Spoiler:

IG
Imperial Guard
-Yarrick
-Priest
-Priest

-5x Tempestus (2x Melta)
-5x Tempestus (2x Melta)

Infrantry Platoon
-50x Conscripts
-PCS (Vox, Autocannon)
-Infantry Squad (Autocannon, Vox)
-Infantry Squad (Autocannon)

Infrantry Platoon
-50x Conscripts
-PCS (Vox, Autocannon)
-Infantry Squad (Autocannon, Vox)
-Infantry Squad (Autocannon)

-Sentinel Squadron (Autocannon)
-Sentinel Squadron (Autocannon)
-Sentinel Squadron (Autocannon)

-Hydra Battery (2x Hydras)
-Wyvern Battery (3x Wyverns)
-Wyvern Battery (3x Wyverns)

Inquision
-Ordo Hereticus (Power Armor, Liber Heresius, Psyocculum, Null Rod, Servo Skull)
-Ordo Hereticus (Power Armor, Psyocculum, Null Rod)

Not sure if this is better, but at least I can engage with Av14 and do more herald hunting with deep striking Tempestus. Added a servo skull as bait and points filler. I could easily spam more, if I wanted to by cutting back autocannons on the Sentinels.

So now I have 4x BS4 Melta guns and lost one hydras and a bunch of Autocannons, but I think I'm still fine. The 100x BS10 vs. Psyker lasguns should put the hurt on anything in a farm star and still be painful against any other army that has psykers. You'll control where they are placed a great deal with that as it's assured to aid in squad vaporization. Yarrick's frontline orders will help with that!

Thoughts on Rev. 2?

That ... that's a smexy list. I like it, a lot good job (que orkish applause). Not the hugest fan of sentials in general (too low damage output to points IMHO). I would instead drop them and use the points for chimeras for your PCSs as the damage output is superior, and protects order givers (plus daemons have a harder time against the AV 12). If you have to keep the sentials, at least give them heavy flamers to dig out hiding heralds.

 TheKbob wrote:
I thought about mortars, but that's what Wyverns are for. The autocannons make it a better TAC list. Also, the outflanking sentinels are also there to snipe out hidden heralds.

And really, don't under estimate the power of those conscripts walking up complete with orders, immune to psychic powers, and BS10 versus psykers. I feel like those would do a great deal of heavy lifting in this army.

They can also reroll to hit and to wound in close combat.

Honestly Multilasers do the same thing and you save yourself 15 points. Plus you get 3 more shots. The Toughest Herald has T5 and 4 wounds.

I'd absoreakinglutely take at least 2 mortar squads for more Barrage. It really is so crazy good against the army. Seriously.

Hollismason wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
I thought about mortars, but that's what Wyverns are for. The autocannons make it a better TAC list. Also, the outflanking sentinels are also there to snipe out hidden heralds.

And really, don't under estimate the power of those conscripts walking up complete with orders, immune to psychic powers, and BS10 versus psykers. I feel like those would do a great deal of heavy lifting in this army.

They can also reroll to hit and to wound in close combat.

Honestly Multilasers do the same thing and you save yourself 15 points. Plus you get 3 more shots. The Toughest Herald has T5 and 4 wounds.

I'd absoreakinglutely take at least 2 mortar squads for more Barrage. It really is so crazy good against the army. Seriously.

I'm not trying to 100% list tailor to daemons. My goal is to have a focus on stopping psykers while still being TAC. Funny enough, one of the hardest match ups for this army is the mirror of itself and really does rely on "going first."

I like the sentinels as they can come from the side AND they can engage in hand to hand if necessary, tying up the herald further. That's why I like them better than PCS Chimeras. Plus, this splits the attention of the daemons to multiple fronts. A one front war against them won't go well. The deep strikers and outflankers will make sure they stay on their toes. The autocannons do better against the side armor of vehicles, providing extra punch where a multi-laser falls short. Again, the list is designed for TAC, not just daemons.

Feel free to modify as you see fit. I don't think I'd ever build it because I'd never get anyone to play against 6 Wyverns.

Yeah Daemon Factory is tough but alot of speculation has been put into taking down Mono lists and really where the Daemon Factory really get's going is with Allies as it's so cheap to get good useful units that summon that really Eldar and Chaos Space Marines especially benefit.

Sure you may shut down a Daemon Factory that's mono it's different when it's 2 Farseers, Warlocks on Jetbikes, and Wraight Knights an the Daemons just deep strike in and start summoning.

Hollismason wrote:
Sure you may shut down a Daemon Factory that's mono it's different when it's 2 Farseers, Warlocks on Jetbikes, and Wraight Knights an the Daemons just deep strike in and start summoning.

Should we be afraid of the allies or the daemon factory? All those things cost points which means less warp charges just admit daemon factory has potential but its not the army to beat, just to early to tell. Your list is going to have daemons, farseers, warlocks on jetbikes, and wraithknights how many points are you playing?

Just admit it the daemon factory is good but not as good as it looks on paper, does it have potential ofcourse but no one should be afraid of it. You guys are like 30+ warp charges!! We respond with facts such as kill 6 horrors to take away 2 charges or 12 for 4 or focus on the heralds for 3 at a time. You than respond with what about 2 farseers, warlocks, and knights? When we give you facts and you respond with something from a different codex its like are we changing the subject? I can see it working since Eldar has a way to proctect themselves from perils but that list is a hybrid that I don't know the specifics to defend against which is most likely the point, so can you explain the new eldar demon factory to us?

I think if the farm works will come down to a gain vs loss equation. Can you kill whole daemon units faster than they are replaced? If not, then the horrors could actually charge into combat against the guard and still come out ahead; as their losses are being replaced while yours are not.

The worst offender I've seen for allies is coteaz with 6 units of henchmen (18 points each for a WC). Yes, 3 henchmen die about as fast as anything that aims at them, but it's target saturation. 208 points is really cheap for 8 warp charge.
Following that, it's another 40 points for a rhino with another warp charge, so 448 gives you 14 warp charge to feed into the daemons.

At 35 points a pop, warlocks are more expensive, and easier to target in the role of daemon battery.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think if the farm works will come down to a gain vs loss equation. Can you kill whole daemon units faster than they are replaced? If not, then the horrors could actually charge into combat against the guard and still come out ahead; as their losses are being replaced while yours are not.

The worst offender I've seen for allies is coteaz with 6 units of henchmen (18 points each for a WC). Yes, 3 henchmen die about as fast as anything that aims at them, but it's target saturation. 208 points is really cheap for 8 warp charge.
Following that, it's another 40 points for a rhino with another warp charge, so 448 gives you 14 warp charge to feed into the daemons.

At 35 points a pop, warlocks are more expensive, and easier to target in the role of daemon battery.

-Matt

Spirit Seers are more durable and an Iyanden Detachment can take 5. Attach that to a unit of Wraithguard to baby sit the backfield objective(s).

It is ridiculously cheap to generate Warp Charge w/ a Daemon Factory.

No one here knows what they are talking about. You can have a Eldar army w/ around 40 Warp Charge in 1500 points with Daemon Allies and all of those guys will be on Jetbikes with Objective Secured Troops. Flying around the board summoning Daemons and then having Daemons teleport in and Summon Daemons. Its ridiculous.

The Daemon Summoning thing get's broken when you start allying seriously.

There's no way Tournaments don't start saying " Yea come the apocalypse cannot ally together".

ansacs wrote:Yeah this army has been around all of a week. I don't think anyone is an expert yet. However some things can be extrapolated.

Exactly. There's nothing sacred about subjective experience, especially when you can just look at the statlines, run the numbers, and create a much more accurate representation of objectivity by just thinking things through.

The only way that an army full of spawning GEq's looks all that scary is when you ignore the demon player's opponent, and then assume the best possible results from die rolls and then freak out at what the hypothetical, though specious best case scenario is.

The benefit of keeping things abstract is that you get to look at people's assumptions going into things. When you give more credence to more realistic assumptions, the demon factory looks a lot less scary than the scariest it is possible to make them look.

I'm sure some people will be stubborn holdouts without seeing a demon factory go down to flaming defeat a few times, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to predict.

 Ailaros wrote:

ansacs wrote:Yeah this army has been around all of a week. I don't think anyone is an expert yet. However some things can be extrapolated.

Exactly. There's nothing sacred about subjective experience, especially when you can just look at the statlines, run the numbers, and create a much more accurate representation of objectivity by just thinking things through.

The only way that an army full of spawning GEq's looks all that scary is when you ignore the demon player's opponent, and then assume the best possible results from die rolls and then freak out at what the hypothetical, though specious best case scenario is.

The benefit of keeping things abstract is that you get to look at people's assumptions going into things. When you give more credence to more realistic assumptions, the demon factory looks a lot less scary than the scariest it is possible to make them look.

I'm sure some people will be stubborn holdouts without seeing a demon factory go down to flaming defeat a few times, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to predict.

You'd be right if it wasn't already a good base of battle reports all saying it's absolutely bat crap insane and is broken.

Because you can take the inverse of your argument; a well skilled player using the list properly. Properly meaning spawning the right daemons at the right time to apply the right pressure. The Daemon Farm is the quintessential TAC list. You can generate ANY stop gap measure for a deficiency your list has.

And do note, any list that requires "going first" means this game has gotten even more dumb. Just my opinion, but given that the dice roll to go first is so powerful now, the game leans even harder on Alpha and denied Alpha strikes.

Yeah everyone here thinks the army is " Summon gakky demons, then do nothing".

Seriously the army has a lot of versatility and becomes even worse when you ally everything the army suffers from can be completely negated by Allies. It's ridiculous and there's nothing you can do to stop these guys from summoning gak on you. I've played several games, proxy, with actual models, and with Vassal. It's really really good. It's not the best but it most certainly can be when you ally with Eldar and other armies.

Sounds like the fear is of full blown Daemon Incursions. lol. The way the fluff says it should be. >D I love it. That said, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Something I don't think some players have factored in yet are those Deny the Witches going through on some of these summons and worse than that, the great Perils of the Warp now dragging half a squad into the Warp with the deaded psyker. Sooo much awesomeness is just waiting too happen.

I hope they can expand this with other races, like Eldar setting up Webway portal beacons or something that "conjures" reinforcements and Orks using Telyporta's.

I would take an Infantry-blob with autocannons and an Inquisitor /w Psyocculum over hydras. BS10 on flyers and twin-linked against everything else is > twinlinked BS3 against flyers and twinlinked snapshots against everything else.

While all of these suggestions are good and probably very effective.....

If you can't beat them, join them!

So things to keep in mind for hard counters:


reduce their warp charge with target priority


remember, psychic powers are cast by choosing a psyker UNIT, and making an attempt to cast a spell they know. A unit with two psykers, with different spells known, will stil be able to manifest any of the powers anyone in its units knows, but is still limited to ONE attempt per spell. Who actually suffers the perils is a bit of a discussion for YMDC, but its RAW right now that the psykers in the unit will randomly be assigned perils when they happen.

IC's are part of a unit for all purposes, so a pyschic unit that tries to cast the same summon power twice, is breaking the rules.

Yeah your target Priority should be

Summoned Heralds
Heralds
Pink Horrors
Portaglyph ( Seriously, blow this up it can provide 1 warp charge a turn)
Oh try to kill any summoner on a Disc or Chariot because seriously these things are super fast, but you probably won't be able to because they can both Move Summon then Move another 15 or 18 inches to get away from you but if you can kill them.

That's only first turn though after that it all becomes situational.

For Dispelling if you have it..

Save it for if they do shooting attacks. Also it weirds the person out if you just hold onto it and messes with them because they are cautious about casting but then honestly your probably gonna at most get like 2 or 3 Denials a entire game because they can power through.

Just don't ever count on denying the army.

I think target priority should be:

1.Large Squads of horrors if they have a squad of 16 horrors producing 3 warp charges you should kill 6 to lower that number down to 1 warp charge. You do this first as it should be the easiest to accomplish.

2.Once all the horror squads are only producing 1 warp charge you kill the easiest target that is producing more than 1 warp charge a turn, usually heralds.

GK still have banishers. Load a henchman squad with a banisher inside a chimera or valk and every deamonic unit within 6" has to reroll successful invo saves.

Hollismason wrote:... even worse when you ally everything the army suffers from can be completely negated by Allies.

At which point you're not running a demon factory. This idea is only scary in the first place because when you double down on it it can, in theory, expand out of control. Once it becomes a reasonable amount of demons summoning other demons, then the threat is gone. You're just running an army that can get more dudes in, not running an army that could possibly overload your opponent's killing power.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:Sounds like the fear is of full blown Daemon Incursions. lol. The way the fluff says it should be. >D I love it..

I won't lie, old respawning conscripts was pretty fun, if not exactly the strongest options, and I can imagine it would be a blast to play for demons as well. Of course, I like the idea of a clown-car full of casualties, which is why I would play respawning conscripts or a demon factory, and not, say, grey knights.

 Ailaros wrote:

Hollismason wrote:... even worse when you ally everything the army suffers from can be completely negated by Allies.

At which point you're not running a demon factory. This idea is only scary in the first place because when you double down on it it can, in theory, expand out of control. Once it becomes a reasonable amount of demons summoning other demons, then the threat is gone. You're just running an army that can get more dudes in, not running an army that could possibly overload your opponent's killing power.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:Sounds like the fear is of full blown Daemon Incursions. lol. The way the fluff says it should be. >D I love it..

I won't lie, old respawning conscripts was pretty fun, if not exactly the strongest options, and I can imagine it would be a blast to play for demons as well. Of course, I like the idea of a clown-car full of casualties, which is why I would play respawning conscripts or a demon factory, and not, say, grey knights.

Yea the first parts just not true. I mean if you want to believe thats but that's not what the army is. It's not just producing Daemons. You can ally Chaos Space Marines with you, to shore up antitank and have massive fire power. Still producing just as many Daemons as Chaos Space Marines have some of the hands down best summoners in the game right now.

Like seriously. I don't know where you are getting this and I don't think you've played against the army or seen what it can do. Multiple people here are playing it currently and trying to "figure it out" , we've had it for a 2 week at most period since Malefic leaked. As it goes on it becomes more and more apparent that you actually need allies to deal with Fliers, Anti AV 14 and other things that you can't deal with reliably with the army.


Hrmmm trying to figure out best way to explain this. Okay so let's say you have 4 Heralds a Lord of Tzeentch and 4 Pink Horrors.

Okay , you have 12 Rolls on the heralds, 4 rolls on the Pinks, 3 max on the Lord.

Now you have actually a Max number of times you can reliably cast Sacrifice, 9. In order to cast those reliably with 5 dice, at 50% or twice with 75% chance of success overall of getting 1 unit or succeeding in casting the spell. At 5 Dice that's 1 Unit. Reliably 6 dice is what you want. That's 18 warp charge expended to ensure it beyond a 80 percent chance to get 1 unit. But your odds increase with each successive cast.

Here's the thing. There's a "sweet spot" with casting. It's all about percentages really. 5 Dice Twice gives you 50% each time , odds total though go to 75% if rolled twice from two seperate casters. You can push that further the more dice you cast each time , with the forethought that it's a percentage game.

This changes when you get the ability to reroll your chances inititally. So while before hand you may have a 31% chance w/ 4 Dice to power a level 3 when you consider rerolling that it becomes a 47% chance, if done twice another a caster using 4 dice as well it becomes a 75% chance which is 2 Warp Lower than actually expending 5 Dice Twice.

It matters in the Perils game as well, because 4 dice rolled 4 times doesn't actually equal a successive Equal Perils of each time because you have to calculate the chance that first your not going to peril on the first roll, then not Peril again on the second roll.

So you may think oh well I'm rolling 4 dice , 4 times so that'd be a 13% chance, but you only have a 13% chance each successive roll it doesn't increase it to 26 % or 46% because you are not in fact rolling 16 dice at the same time.


Now none of this comes into play really until you ally because taking Chaos Space Marines as the Primary, overall actually gives you better chances to summon. That's all possible because of Spell Familiar which rerolls failed Psychic Tests.

So yeah, it's actually better to go with Chaos Space Marines as a Primary and a allied demon as you'll actually be able to summon more things because statistically you'll have to use less Warp Dice.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:Yea the first parts just not true. I mean if you want to believe thats but that's not what the army is. It's not just producing Daemons. You can ally Chaos Space Marines with you, to shore up antitank and have massive fire power. Still producing just as many Daemons as Chaos Space Marines have some of the hands down best summoners in the game right now.

Like seriously. I don't know where you are getting this and I don't think you've played against the army or seen what it can do. Multiple people here are playing it currently and trying to "figure it out" , we've had it for a 2 week at most period since Malefic leaked. As it goes on it becomes more and more apparent that you actually need allies to deal with Fliers, Anti AV 14 and other things that you can't deal with reliably with the army.

They don't require allies, they even have things in house to deal with most of the things mentioned actually. AA and anti-horde in Soul Grinders (assuming Phlgem Bombardment) and AT in Exalted Flamers (most likely on Burning Chariots). Their hole is anti-artillary which is a big one, given the most notorious one is in an army which could beat a daemon factory (TFC in C:SM of course).

Yes I am aware, of the bane of the army that is Barrage. I've mentioned it multiple times in the thread as a way to brutalize the army.The only tactics really are : Get something that Deep Strikes and shoots to land and try and kill it. Hide. Go with Nurgle Summoners (T5 W4).It's why you should kind of mix and match your summoners, the army doesn't actually statistically need more than 30 dice to get going.

Exalted Flamers are okay HQs but since they are Heavy cannot move and shoot without snap shot they're pretty unreliable on their own as a HQ.

Burning Chariot is okay, until you realize that it has to get in LOS of other things, it's a good vehicle, but seriously you can take a Soul Grinder.

They don't "require allies" but Chaos Space Marines seriously boosts the armies potential to use other tactics that can negate Alpha Strike Armies. Specifically their more survivable and you can have a small contingent that will survive on the table top while you hopefully are able to Deepstrike in Daemons and start summoning.

You can go with tough Daemon units but all the ones you have Access to really eat into your HQ slots and HS slots. It's easier just to ally and better in some cases as CSM benefit specifically from cursed earth on Obliterators and a few other units that benefit as well such as shooty shoot shoot things as you can cast Prescience on the army now you always could but this makes it more of a incentive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh forgot to add yeah you only are gonna probably be casting Summoning a Max of 4 to 5 times a turn as you want spell dice for Incursion , Possession, Cursed Earth, and if you take it Divination.

So just having a massive amount of units with Summon is kind of dumb. You only need like 5 to 6 copies of the spell at most.

Hollismason wrote:You can ally Chaos Space Marines with you, to shore up antitank and have massive fire power.

Then you're spending hundreds and hundreds of points on chaos space marines. You're diluting your strength.

It's like taking a guard army where you only bring AV14 vehicles and then someone says "well, what about lance weapons?" and your response is to get rid of a few AV14 vehicles and replace them with a few squads in chimeras. It doesn't solve the problem, it just weakens your key advantage - spamming something so hard your opponent can't deal with it all.

Hollismason wrote:It's all about percentages really.

Which, if you've been paying attention, is one of the key problems (of several). Yes, you can take a spell familiar, but that doesn't change the fundamentally super-random nature of this army.

Once you start taking casualties (especially, say, once that sorcerer gets forced down) you start having fewer and fewer chances of making that random thing work correctly.

Yeah the army is built on being completely redundant also there's a point in a single FOC + ally that you reach where you actually are just wasting points on taking more Summoning spells because you can't cast them all plus remember your summoning things specifically heralds that also cast.

The army isn't "random", you definitively can get a summoning spell. If you have a LeveL 3 Sorcerer the odds of him rolling possession is greater than 30% , you have 10 of them. You will get everything you want to get and get some bs.

Once you have just 2 each of the summon spells you are literally GTG after that.. Anything extra after that is just bonus. There's no "random"ness to this army, it's built to be redundant. I'm going to take 7 Level 3 Sorcerers that roll 21 times on the chart. Each Level 3 has a 30% or greater chance of getting Possession. Or trading out and taking a bad roll to get Summoning. If by the time I get to Sorcerer number 4 I don't need to take anymore summoning then I'm good.

Every Single Pink Horror Squad can have Summoning. It doesn't even need to roll. Just take it , so of those 6 powers 2 are not good. The Witchfire. You will always get something good with Pink Horrors, and you can kill them down to 3 guys and they'll still be able to summon.

You don't need like 1500 points of Summoning Daemons to make the army powerful.All those "points " your spending add to the functionality of the army.

It's pretty cheap anyway so It's not like your hurting.

Like I've actually been playing the army and trying different things and other people will tell you that there's a complete plateau on having to many summon spells that you cant cast anyway.

Havint 12 Summoners with Summons is kind of pointless because you can spend 72 Warp Charge to summon basically at a 60% chance 6 units.

Again, allying in Chaos Space Marines isn't going to harm the army at all and give it benefits.

This isn't a army that is "random" at all. Your order is pretty easy.

Select Each Pink Horror Squad roll their Psychics First depending on your number of squads usualy 2 to 4 you'll get some good spells or Summoning.

If by the time I get to my 3rd Sorcerer and I've gotten possession twice, Incursion Twice, and Sacrifice. Everything past that is BONUS. Then you just start solo rolling on the Malefic, taking Summoning if you get it. If you get possession roll the rest as you want to cast Possession and Start rolling up on the other charts like Biomancy , Divination etc..

This isn't some like " Take gak, roll randomly, put gak on the board, win" army. It's not taking 3 Riptides or a 2++ rerolling unit. It's a actual army that requires tactics and in depth knowledge of your odds and when your cut off is for taking Malefic. A huge portion of Tactics starts when you do your order for rolling for Psychic Powers.

It actually get's pretty difficult at some points knowing exactly what to do. You in a Daemon Factory have to put pressure immediately on your opponent you can't just spend a turn summoning, it's pointless it's why it's actually kind of interesting. Knights and SH hurt. So do a ton of other things. You just have to know how to counter it.

So had the game today against the "OMGURD BROKEN DEMONS" today...
1750 pts

played using my standard TAC guard list,

will post a bat rep in the bat rep section once i get pics and play by play up and ready,


but here is the breif synopsis for you guys:

I was allowing him to proxy any units for whatever he wanted them to be FYI,

he was getting good rolls for set up and powers, every single summon went off for the first 3 turns, I was able to deny two witchfires with lucky rolls.

He had several units with the greater demon summon.


and none of it mattered one bit, despite him getting first turn.


why you ask? how on earth could and army that spent all its pts on being able to summon lose despite adding 20+ models a turn? (over the course of the game, over 500pts were generated IIRC so thats almost 30% of base pts)

well, all his pts were in summoning, all my pts were in shooting.

1st turn he gets his shattered earth off, his 2++ rerols, and both his summons without incident. since everything is based around summoning, I suffer very few casualties turn 1.

he however, takes off ~40 models that turn, and since Im not an idiot, I am purposefully targeting the things that can give him the most WC:s as even with 7 dice at each attempt, he has a crappy chance. Dropped him down 6 or 7 WC's first turn, which really screwed over his summoning

the next turn.. he was only able to summon one free greater daemon... again, his army has not magically gained the ability to toss damage at me across the table, so I take very few casualties

turn 2 of my shooting... basically the game is over at this point, I finished off another 40 models or so, sure he is up a demon at this point, but its all the way over there, and he can either summon a walking demon that will never make it into range to do anything, or summon a flying one that wont make it into combat for 2 extra rounds.


we played two more turns just for fun, but it was all over at this point...

and this was a game where he was LUCKY the first few rounds getting first turn and every summon off... just imagine if he had gone second...

my friend is a very smart TO, who has been playing for 15+ years, this was one of a couple games he had played to see how broken demon factory is.

He feels like he is crippling himself stupidly by putting all his pts into summoning, and we both feel his list would do much better if he focused on actually killing stuff, while getting the odd buff/summons off.

his other test game against an tournament worth list (eldar wraith deathstar) also ended with his butt being kicked.


Cant say I am surprised, we have people going ape crazy over a list that is :"broken" because in one popular bat rep they lucked out and drew a tie...

when in actual fact, the all summon list is just stupid, time consuming, and offers you no real advantage as the demon player.

Bringing an all D factory list has so many draw backs its not even funny... any opponent who has either mobility or firepower will cream you in the early game...
and any opponent who has neither firepower or mobility deserves to lose (two things that ironically, demon factory severely lacks)

So lets stop the QQ, and all the calls to nerf everything psychic please, reality is the D factory list is borderline suck, and very far from competitive.

 easysauce wrote:
So had the game today against the "OMGURD BROKEN DEMONS" today...
1750 pts

played using my standard TAC guard list,

will post a bat rep in the bat rep section once i get pics and play by play up and ready,


but here is the breif synopsis for you guys:

I was allowing him to proxy any units for whatever he wanted them to be FYI,

he was getting good rolls for set up and powers, every single summon went off for the first 3 turns, I was able to deny two witchfires with lucky rolls.

He had several units with the greater demon summon.


and none of it mattered one bit, despite him getting first turn.


why you ask? how on earth could and army that spent all its pts on being able to summon lose despite adding 20+ models a turn?

well, all his pts were in summoning, all my pts were in shooting.

1st turn he gets his shattered earth off, his 2++ rerols, and both his summons without incident. since everything is based around summoning, I suffer very few casualties turn 1.

he however, takes off ~40 models that turn, and since Im not an idiot, I am purposefully targeting the things that can give him the most WC:s as even with 7 dice at each attempt, he has a crappy chance. Dropped him down 6 or 7 WC's first turn, which really screwed over his summoning

the next turn.. he was only able to summon one free greater daemon... again, his army has not magically gained the ability to toss damage at me across the table, so I take very few casualties

turn 2 of my shooting... basically the game is over at this point, I finished off another 40 models or so, sure he is up a demon at this point, but its all the way over there, and he can either summon a walking demon that will never make it into range to do anything, or summon a flying one that wont make it into combat for 2 extra rounds.


we played two more turns just for fun, but it was all over at this point...

and this was a game where he was LUCKY the first few rounds getting first turn and every summon off... just imagine if he had gone second...

my friend is a very smart TO, who has been playing for 15+ years, this was one of a couple games he had played to see how broken demon factory is.

He feels like he is crippling himself stupidly by putting all his pts into summoning, and we both feel his list would do much better if he focused on actually killing stuff, while getting the odd buff/summons off.

his other test game against an tournament worth list (eldar wraith deathstar) also ended with his butt being kicked.


Cant say I am surprised, we have people going ape crazy over a list that is :"broken" because in one popular bat rep they lucked out and drew a tie...

when in actual fact, the all summon list is just stupid, time consuming, and offers you no real advantage as the demon player.

Bringing an all D factory list has so many draw backs its not even funny... any opponent who has either mobility or firepower will cream you in the early game...
and any opponent who has neither firepower or mobility deserves to lose (two things that ironically, demon factory severely lacks)

So lets stop the QQ, and all the calls to nerf everything psychic please, reality is the D factory list is borderline suck, and very far from competitive.

Quiet FOOL, if they find out the truth then how am I supposed to get some easy wins at the GT this fall. I got some serious money on the line man

....and this was a game where he was LUCKY the first few rounds getting first turn and every summon off... just imagine if he had gone second...

With Daemon Factory, going first vs going second may not be such a big deal. The advantage they get from going first is that they get to use all their casters at least once before you start killing them.

But if they just sit there and summon, you can effectively alpha strike them even if they go first, which is...unique.