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I think it's way too soon to figure out where Chaos Marines stand.

Being able to ally with yourself, to ally with Come the Apocalypse, and to take formations of Helbrutes... not to mention the change to psykers.. It really changes the meta, and time will tell. Heck, if you really wanted to, you could ally with Inquisition and run Coteaz like all the other tourney players do.

We'll see what happens. I think it's going to boil down to peoples' collections and desires more than specific lists, with how open the game is. Even with basic tournament restrictions of 'one combined arms detachment, one ally' that still opens up a lot of stuff.

Daemon prince is sound as a summoner. can take a spell familiar for reroll failes tests, is a daemon so no difficulty summoning. Can fly to be hard to hit, can jink even when gliding, is good in combat. Go nurgle and get a 2+ jink.
Also you get the god power for free, so three rolls on the table you want.(maybe a slight rules dispute there)

But belakor wins out for guaranteed invisibility


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about 3 knights and a horror based daemon summoning coven? Theres so much you can do in 7th.

Anti air is probably the hardest slot to effectively fill now, without going unbound.

triple maulerfiends, double spawnstar with sorc or biker lord and an Imperial Knight. Supported by rhino marines.

 Blackskull wrote:


thing infused with the unholy power of the 7th edition rules
psyker bio price, S9 T8 princes kick ass
all vehicles (you will not be mocked for bringing a brute, heck im even thinking of blowing the dust off my defiler)
sorcerers
ahirman


frankly I am enjoying the change and we got off lightly

Tyranids are completely trashed due to the MC nerf, and they weren't that strong to begin with

Ork anti armour is now useless as they are forced to glance things to death,

Tau and necrons to a lesser extent facing a rough time as heavy psyker lists become prevalent, noticing the lil blue guys are uncomfortable with the ultramarine player and his recently acquired collection of daemons, necrons being necrons are actually profiting form chariot changes and monoliths are now indestructible rape machines once more.

Everyone wants daemons to summon but as chaos we typically include some in our lists already, I don't know about you lot but I already have daemons knocking about, which is lucky as my GW store has sold out, theme is "one 7th edition rules and a box o Daemons"

Thats hilarious, but you forgot MoN on the prince lol. Rocket-launchers wounding on 5's anyone? Lazcannon is 4+ lmao

General question, can warpsmiths take a bike?

No, sadly. The masters of machines are too scared to mount one themselves. They also can't take a power fist or a meltabomb. You know, to help tear apart tanks.

Since rhinos gain objective secured, I think mounted chaos marines have a place again. It will give up first blood, in all likelihood, but it might be worth it to double your scoring units for a fraction of the cost.

There's some issues that I would like to comment on as others haven't done so:

In the restrictions of the Allied Detachment it states "All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your
Primary Detachment (or no Faction)."

So aren't we agreeing that you can't ally with your self?

That it says "Battle Brothers" in the Allies chart is probably because of supplements, thereby telling us that we can still ally with supplements which are based on the same codex which is used for the Primary Detachment.

-------------------

I agree that it's not clear about level 1 Chaos Sorcerers whether they're allowed to roll on another Psychic power table than the one belonging to their patron deity but reading this text in the Chaos Space Marines codex "Though the Sorcerer must generate at least one power from the Discipline of Tzeentch table..." it would seem that it's intended for Sorcerers to have at least one psychic power from the specific chart - it's not important if you actually rolled on the chart or not, just that you somehow generate a psychic power from the chart.

You cannot take an Allied Detachment from the same Codex, but you can take multiple CBA Detachments. In fact the CBA is so much more extensive that the Allied one is redundant unless you really don't want to pay for that second Troops choice.

 Daemon Prince wrote:

 Blackskull wrote:


thing infused with the unholy power of the 7th edition rules
psyker bio price, S9 T8 princes kick ass
all vehicles (you will not be mocked for bringing a brute, heck im even thinking of blowing the dust off my defiler)
sorcerers
ahirman


frankly I am enjoying the change and we got off lightly

Tyranids are completely trashed due to the MC nerf, and they weren't that strong to begin with

Ork anti armour is now useless as they are forced to glance things to death,

Tau and necrons to a lesser extent facing a rough time as heavy psyker lists become prevalent, noticing the lil blue guys are uncomfortable with the ultramarine player and his recently acquired collection of daemons, necrons being necrons are actually profiting form chariot changes and monoliths are now indestructible rape machines once more.

Everyone wants daemons to summon but as chaos we typically include some in our lists already, I don't know about you lot but I already have daemons knocking about, which is lucky as my GW store has sold out, theme is "one 7th edition rules and a box o Daemons"

Thats hilarious, but you forgot MoN on the prince lol. Rocket-launchers wounding on 5's anyone? Lazcannon is 4+ lmao

Daemons do not get Mark of Nurgle, they get Daemon of Nurgle which gives them shrouded and Slow and Purposeful.

I think with a bit of skill CSM can still do alright, they will struggle with anti-air but I think this edition will see a push away from the air force builds

Spawn stars with 2-3 sorcs on bikes spamming divination, sanctic, malefic, bio. Be'lakor, oblits, drakes!
What a fun!

In 6th I ran the helbrute data slates with chaos contemptors, decimators, defilers and maulerfiends. Been slowly painting them up for awhile now, and 7th seems likely to make them even better. No problems here.

Huh, forgive me, but can somebody explain to me how KSons really got buffed? Overall Ahriman still really isn't worth it and is arguably far more likely to peril and the KSons still have to roll twice on the Tzeentchian table. The WC2 is still not worth it, the mutation is still horrid, the primaris is really not worth any praise, and the only real good pick is still doombolt. Plus it's more difficult to cast things in general.

I'm rather curious on how this new edition will influence Walkers though, particularly the assault variant. Defilers still are probably not worth it but.... maybe some others?

There is nothing in the Codex Chaos Space Marines atm that currently stick out past the crowd as unique and exciting. Everything in the codex gets out shined by their counterpart Space Marine equivalents and they are completely outshined by Daemons who consequently do everything CSM can do, but 10x better and more efficiently

GoliothOnline wrote:
There is nothing in the Codex Chaos Space Marines atm that currently stick out past the crowd as unique and exciting. Everything in the codex gets out shined by their counterpart Space Marine equivalents and they are completely outshined by Daemons who consequently do everything CSM can do, but 10x better and more efficiently

Please direct me to the Codex: SM equivalents for:

Maulerfiends
Forgefiends
Defilers
Plague Marines
Noise Marines
Khorne Berserkers
Thousand Sons
Chaos Spawn

And how these are outshined by their equivalents:

Sorcerer (vs max lvl 2 Librarian)
Obliterators (vs Devastators stuck with 1-2 weapons? or Centurions with no invuls, no deep strike, and 2 weapon options?)
Chaos bikers (T6 with MoN, enough said)
Chaos Space Marines (who can purchase way more options than their loyalist kin)

Codex: CSM isn't in the best of places, but dear lord chill out with the doom and gloom. Yeah, Daemons are better. So are Eldar and Tau. But they're better than literally everyone else.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
There is nothing in the Codex Chaos Space Marines atm that currently stick out past the crowd as unique and exciting. Everything in the codex gets out shined by their counterpart Space Marine equivalents and they are completely outshined by Daemons who consequently do everything CSM can do, but 10x better and more efficiently

Please direct me to the Codex: SM equivalents for:

Maulerfiends - You don't have to worry at all about sinking 125 point into something that gets murdered by Lascannons with only AV12
Forgefiends - ^
Defilers - ^ + Are you really trying to say that these things are in lists? 195 points for a Vehicle that has upgrades and weapons it can barely ever make use of.
Plague Marines - Expensive as all hell and requires a Lord that even bare bones is still added into the price of the Plague Marines you need in order to unlock as troops. Otherwise you're wasting an Elite Slot.
Noise Marines - ^
Khorne Berserkers - LOL ^
Thousand Sons - Ap3 Bolters. That's all they have going for them... 4++? Thanks for the awesome invuln save on those models that aren't clearing board space any faster by that trash-can Transport the Rhino doesn't leave them useless within
Chaos Spawn - really? lol You're saying spawn are unique? Sorry but... Why? Because they soak up wounds for a melee dedicated lord or Sorcerer? Oh gee, I love spending 30+ point a model to grant a Model that focuses on melee an extra turn while crossing the board. This wouldn't be so bad if the stupid things had a save, at ALL.

And how these are outshined by their equivalents:

Sorcerer (vs max lvl 2 Librarian) - Psychic hoods, not having to roll on the absolute worst psychic table in the game if you take Marks of Chaos (Which in hilarity used to hinder you more than it would help you, and even now that's the case, just mitigated slightly by Chaos Focus)
Obliterators (vs Devastators stuck with 1-2 weapons? or Centurions with no invuls, no deep strike, and 2 weapon options?) - BRB While I don't care because I'm spending 70+/Model points for a heavy support slot that will Mishap and disappear 1/3 of the time and subsequently on 1s.
Chaos bikers (T6 with MoN, enough said) What makes them amazing is that people tend to throw Bolter fire at regular bikers and hope for 5s and 6s. Oh, it makes you sad that I had to make them more expensive in order to force you to roll 6s instead? What's that, a Vindicator.... Well then... I guess T6 really didn't matter.
Chaos Space Marines (who can purchase way more options than their loyalist kin) - And are subsequently terrible and never taken... What's your point here? People don't run CSM anymore when Cultists outshine them point for point and make them literally look pretentious.

Codex: CSM isn't in the best of places, but dear lord chill out with the doom and gloom. Yeah, Daemons are better. So are Eldar and Tau. But they're better than literally everyone else.

So what I'm seeing is no equivalents, then? I wish my dreads could move as fast as a maulerfiend with its weight of attacks. I wish shooting dreads could shoot as much as a forge fiend. And have free 5++ to boot. And Daemon forge. Oh no, you need a lord to unlock cult troops. Funny how you need and HQ anyway to remain battle forged. Slap a mark of choice and you're set. Spawn, by the by, don't quite need a save with their speed and natural toughness (hello nurgle my old friend).

Psychic hoods are a pittance for mastery 3 and I would trade it for that any day of the week. Vindicates are barely if ever taken, and if you see one, you're faster than it and can jink. And yeah, cultists might be better than stock chaos marines (in 6th, welcome to 7th where mobile troops are gold), but guess what loyalists don't get? Cultists, OR half the options of the "awful" chaos marines.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
So what I'm seeing is no equivalents, then? I wish my dreads could move as fast as a maulerfiend with its weight of attacks. I wish shooting dreads could shoot as much as a forge fiend. And have free 5++ to boot. And Daemon forge. Oh no, you need a lord to unlock cult troops. Funny how you need and HQ anyway to remain battle forged. Slap a mark of choice and you're set. Spawn, by the by, don't quite need a save with their speed and natural toughness (hello nurgle my old friend).

Psychic hoods are a pittance for mastery 3 and I would trade it for that any day of the week. Vindicates are barely if ever taken, and if you see one, you're faster than it and can jink. And yeah, cultists might be better than stock chaos marines (in 6th, welcome to 7th where mobile troops are gold), but guess what loyalists don't get? Cultists, OR half the options of the "awful" chaos marines.

Trying to compare the Dread to the Maulerfiend?
Trying to compare Dreads to Forgefiends as well? You know why they're incomparable? WS and BS aside the blood things serve no purpose. Maulerfiends were a 125 point sink into a vehicles that took up a HS spot and provided NOTHING to your army. Everything you got out of them was outshined and out performed by a simply TriLasPred and you got the range to keep them safe along with the added armor. Same goes for Forgefiends just even more disgustingly out classed. 8 Hades Autocannon shots hitting on 4s is garbage compared to the damage potential of a 35 point cheaper TriLasPred with better survivability.

I STILL run Vindicators because of their pie plates. In tournaments people WILL focus them and half the time they can't get rid of it before I make it's points back. The thing is fantastic. As for Cultists, woopi! We finally have 1 thing in our dex that actually gets to see use.

Auto cannon drakes got hit just as hard by the nerf as baleflamers. They can no longer shoot at the rear armour of vehicles they fly over, which limits their anti armour role, and the can no longer fly anywhere around the board whilst threatening enemy fliers.

Would hull mount + vector dancer have been enough to fix it?

Are you aware that Chaos has access to tri Las predators?

Also, dreads are absolute garbage the majority of the time for marines. 6 in move with the same armor as a maulerfiend (unless ironclad) and less attacks with no Daemon save. Shooting dreads often fire 2 TL autocannons. At low strength and half the total shot potential.

Want to compare anything to a Las predator? Compare it to the EXACT SAME THING that exists in the chaos book.

Tri-Las preds only shine when you're using very little terrain. If you use a solid amount of terrain (you know to tone down shooty armies) the tri-las is hurt pretty bad as moving to get a shot it is reduced to one shot and trying to park it somewhere for board control is less effective because it won't be able to see much. Walkers don't experience this issue as much being able to move and fire all weapons. So this just means, to me, that they serve different purposes and aren't so comparable in the first place.

The got a buff now that Telepathy is the new Black. Spell Familiars make CSM Sorcerers the most reliable casters in the game. Other Psykers like Ahriman and Aspiring Sorcerers got a buff too with Chaos Focus and Ahriman being able to sling the same Witchfire three times.

Helldrake got nerfed, but in general got a big durability buff. Is less likely to Explode! now meaning it's It Will Not Die becomes a bigger factor. Also, there is actually a point to Jink now for the 4+ cover, rather than it being redundant with it's Invulnerable. Finally, Helldrake can score (in Hover mode).

 StarTrotter wrote:
Huh, forgive me, but can somebody explain to me how KSons really got buffed? Overall Ahriman still really isn't worth it and is arguably far more likely to peril and the KSons still have to roll twice on the Tzeentchian table. The WC2 is still not worth it, the mutation is still horrid, the primaris is really not worth any praise, and the only real good pick is still doombolt. Plus it's more difficult to cast things in general.

They use to only get 1 Tzeench power, now they get 2
They use to have to shoot their witchfire at the same thing the squad did, now they can pick a different target.
Now if another sorcerer joins the unit, only one needs to activate their force weapon for both to have ID force weapons

Huge buffs, still terrible

I guess i can just burn my codex n 6th ed rule book.

 Filch wrote:
I guess i can just burn my codex n 6th ed rule book.

Burn it with Flickering Fire. That's one tactic that's become a little more viable, granted this thread is about Chaos Marines not Chaos Daemons.

Daemon engines (stuff with IWND and methods of ignoring crew shaken/stunned results) have gotten a little bit better. Helbrutes/Maulerfiends stand a much better chance against most MC's because of the Smash nerf.

I think the Heldrake easily still has a place in lists, 3 is now too much though.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
There is nothing in the Codex Chaos Space Marines atm that currently stick out past the crowd as unique and exciting. Everything in the codex gets out shined by their counterpart Space Marine equivalents and they are completely outshined by Daemons who consequently do everything CSM can do, but 10x better and more efficiently

Please direct me to the Codex: SM equivalents for:

Maulerfiends
Forgefiends
Defilers
Plague Marines
Noise Marines
Khorne Berserkers
Thousand Sons
Chaos Spawn

And how these are outshined by their equivalents:

Sorcerer (vs max lvl 2 Librarian)
Obliterators (vs Devastators stuck with 1-2 weapons? or Centurions with no invuls, no deep strike, and 2 weapon options?)
Chaos bikers (T6 with MoN, enough said)
Chaos Space Marines (who can purchase way more options than their loyalist kin)

Codex: CSM isn't in the best of places, but dear lord chill out with the doom and gloom. Yeah, Daemons are better. So are Eldar and Tau. But they're better than literally everyone else.

This. +1. Could not have said it better myself.

Has anyone tried running an unmarked list yet? I'm getting a commission paint job done for some night Lords so I'm curious

man I'm loving chaos, both the marines and demons in 7th.

i think for chaos our strength lies in our demon engines and helbrutes.

I've been running a helbrute spam list, using our data slates, and have been LOVING it. helcult troops, murder pack getting invisibility from be'lakor, deep striking mayhem packs, and suppourt from maulerfiends.

train wreck, pain train buck nasty chaos baby!!!

Ahriman is the only psyker in the game who can potentially throw out 3 str D blasts every turn.
Here is a cheezy strat with him I learned from some guys here on the forum:

1) Have 5 ML 3 pskers at the back farming WC. ~625P
2) Ahriman Rolls 3 or 4 times on Sanctic daemonology, depending on views on Chaos Focus(for tzeentch).
3) Take Ahriman and 9 chaos marines in a rhino, they can free infiltrate 18'' from enemy models due to Ahriman's Warlord trait placed on himself. ~400p
4) Drive the Rhino 12'' and disembark(if you have Gate of Infinity). Now in range of many enemy models with Vortex of doom.
5)Cast vortex of doom 3 times anywhere you like and wreak massive havok.
--If you have enough WC left, cast gate of infinity and get outta there.(or cast gate to get in-range of high-priority models)
Note 1: Vortex has 5/6 chance of staying every turn and moving randomly 2d6 inches; might kill even moar.
Note 2: Might as well roll on sanctic daemonology for all your other psykers and drive them up in rhinoes to throw out VoD after Ahriman is ded.
Note 3: Depending on how much dies to VoD, Ahriman might actually survive for round 2 without Gate-ing out.

TL;DR: 1000p For 3 str D vortex blasts every turn.


Ps, If he has 3 squads of battlesuits or similar expensives like Termies or HQ, in a 24'' vicinity. You just just killed somewhere between 600-and 900p in one psychic phase. And your enemy will probably only return the favor of up to 400 points.

Too bad Ahriman is banned in New Jersey.