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major_payne wrote:
Heres a good one, I have a tournament in August and there will be 3-5 seerstar/serpent/revenant lists... If a revenant becomes invisible for a turn, how do you kill it?... D-weapons are mainly blast at range, it was hard enough to kill it with its 3+ save...

It is easier to kill the thing giving it invisibility first.

 Trickstick wrote:

major_payne wrote:
Heres a good one, I have a tournament in August and there will be 3-5 seerstar/serpent/revenant lists... If a revenant becomes invisible for a turn, how do you kill it?... D-weapons are mainly blast at range, it was hard enough to kill it with its 3+ save...

It is easier to kill the thing giving it invisibility first.

What if the thing giving it invisibility is invisible. It's not like it is hard to come up with a unit like that is scary when invisibility is cast on itself...

Any advice requiring you to roll dice to "dispel" it is fairly silly.. Really? You need 12 dice to maybe get 2 6s! Thats only if they roll just 2 4+s.

DTW is not the answer to countering blessings.. You just gotta suck it up as you did in 6th.

Super Newb wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

major_payne wrote:
Heres a good one, I have a tournament in August and there will be 3-5 seerstar/serpent/revenant lists... If a revenant becomes invisible for a turn, how do you kill it?... D-weapons are mainly blast at range, it was hard enough to kill it with its 3+ save...

It is easier to kill the thing giving it invisibility first.

What if the thing giving it invisibility is invisible. It's not like it is hard to come up with a unit like that is scary when invisibility is cast on itself...

Exactly. This is the only problem with invisibility. Think of a SM librarian in 10 man th&ss terminator unit... or Chaos Sorcerer in 30 strong Cultist unit (just to give a proper example, who in the name of the emperor does this kind of heresy?!)

Problem is that players hide their caster behind the unit where power is cast to.

Invisibility is not something that we cant cross, but it is broken...
It has only few counters, like sniping the caster... that ought work. Or tesla... or sniping and tesla... but in any case, options are very limited.

Sniping would be mighty hard if invisibility is up!

Honestly, you have to think of this in terms of the fluff.

Invisibility does what exactly? Make your unit INVISIBLE. They modified it so that you can only snap shot at it and hit them on a 6 because people still see the unit on the table, and snap shots disallow blast markers so you can't bombard them with metagame knowledge.

It's just like if they gave invisibility to a unit in an RTS. You wouldn't be able to see the unit at all so you wouldn't be targeting them at all. That's the point of Invisibility, a shield that says "don't attack this unit because you really shouldn't even be able to".

Granted, invisible scary things are scary and invisible swarms are tanky. If anything, invisibility should wear off when they attack like most RPGs already do.

Kyutaru wrote:
Honestly, you have to think of this in terms of the fluff.

No, it needs to be thought of in terms of gameplay.

Fluff only has bearing to the point of the abstraction necessary to create a workable rule that represents it on a fundamental basis.

Game balance should always trump 'realism', or strict adherence to the fluff.

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the current iteration of the game, where things like 2++ rerollable saves, only being hit on 6s, and superheavies are accepted and normal aspects of gameplay.

Maybe I'm nostalgic, but I don't think ruling out 83% of shots, before saves, is beneficial to the game in any way.

 Blacksails wrote:

No, it needs to be thought of in terms of gameplay.

Remember who makes this game? Games Workshop. Forge a Narrative. Fluff over Balance. Non-competitive. Etc etc etc.

Occasionally they fix things to be more fair, but these guys could care less about whether the game is balanced or not. If they did, they'd codify their ruleset using clear, precise, and uniform terminology instead of having nearly every bloody thing in the book able to be questioned by rules lawyers. CCGs care about balance and make their rules as waterproof as possible. If you want a balanced Warhammer 40k, you're going to have to write it yourself.

Remember too that you're not ruling out 83% of shots. The unit is supposed to be invisible. You shouldn't be able to fire at it at all. But THAT would be broken and complained about to high holy hell.

Kyutaru wrote:

Remember who makes this game? Games Workshop. Forge a Narrative. Fluff over Balance. Non-competitive. Etc etc etc.

Only the first bit is a reasonable excuse; the rest, 'forging a narrative' and other nonsense is precisely that, nonsense and doesn't excuse poor game design.

Occasionally they fix things to be more fair, but these guys could care less about whether the game is balanced or not. If they did, they'd codify their ruleset using clear, precise, and uniform terminology instead of having nearly every bloody thing in the book able to be questioned by rules lawyers. CCGs care about balance and make their rules as waterproof as possible. If you want a balanced Warhammer 40k, you're going to have to write it yourself.

I'm well aware of GW's poor balance and overall game design. My point was that fluff shouldn't excuse poor game design, as you explained earlier. Do also note that I said 'shouldn't', as I know full well GW will continue with their balance issues.

Remember too that you're not ruling out 83% of shots. The unit is supposed to be invisible. You shouldn't be able to fire at it at all. But THAT would be broken and complained about to high holy hell.

Being able to shoot at it on 6s is hardly that much of an improvement over not being to (theoretically/fluff-wise) not shoot it all. Point is, I wouldn't find it enjoyable to face an already strong/durable unit that had an additional layer of protection that ignored outright 5/6 shots, and all blasts.

I'm sure I'm not the only one in that camp.

As for fluff justifications, if a piece of fluff were to be incorporated perfectly in the game so as to break it, maybe it didn't belong in the game in the first place.

ummm.... its no worse then snap firing at flyers...at least you can actually still hit the invis unit in CC unlike zoomers.... its a WC 2 power, hard to cast, easy to perils, you can ignore/tarpit the unit... and it gives no other bonuses besides the "snap shots/CC hits"

you also must get lucky to begin with to get the power in the first place...

that being said, yes, its powerful, but not brokenly so, you take very real risks to cast it, and you cannot rely on getting it, so any strategy that does rely on it is going to fail if they miss that roll when generating.

Granted, I also dislike flyers in the game.

They just feel silly, but I've never liked the mechanics for them, so I guess I'm at least consistent.

It seems the biggest decision when making a list these days is whether to summon more stuff with it or make it invisible.

Invis really isnt much worse than 2++ reroll, or 2+/2+ cover rerollable.

plenty of armies can get TL'd. Belakor is great, but most of the units he can and would invis are also susceptible to tarpitting due to the lack of HnR in the codex.

It is definitely "too good" but i'd be against removing it without considering the removal of other "broken" powers.

It isn't easy to fish for invis and getting powers off is much harder than before.

All we can hope is that 7th edition DE come quickly and HnR is removed from all their characters as to de-buff the main abusers of powers like invis.

 LValx wrote:
Invis really isnt much worse than 2++ reroll, or 2+/2+ cover rerollable.

This isn't saying much though.

Both of those things are pretty broken and don't belong in the first place.

major_payne wrote:
Heres a good one, I have a tournament in August and there will be 3-5 seerstar/serpent/revenant lists... If a revenant becomes invisible for a turn, how do you kill it?... D-weapons are mainly blast at range, it was hard enough to kill it with its 3+ save...

Throw your rulebook at the users.

That'll teach 'em.

if they had made snap shots only -2 to BS... that would have fixed this,and sooooo many other things.

but noooooo, you orks have the same chance to hit snap shots as the best shot assassin in the galaxy...

 LValx wrote:


plenty of armies can get TL'd. Belakor is great, but most of the units he can and would invis are also susceptible to tarpitting due to the lack of HnR in the codex.

The units you would cast invisibility on with chaos daemons all have ways to kill everything. Seekers have rending, Plague drones have poison, both can bring AP2 and both can have obscene amounts of attacks. A dreadnought could tie up the seekers, if the daemon player was bad enough to let them get caught. Not much can easily tarpit plague drones. Not a unit large enough to warrant casting invisibility on. Honestly I would probably just cast invisibility on Be'lakor himeslf, or some other MC, like a black mace DP and have them hop around the table.

Change it back to give affected units Stealth or Shrouded.

/fixed

 Sigvatr wrote:
Change it back to give affected units Stealth or Shrouded.

/fixed

It was stealthed and shrouded.

 Blacksails wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Invis really isnt much worse than 2++ reroll, or 2+/2+ cover rerollable.

This isn't saying much though.

Both of those things are pretty broken and don't belong in the first place.

There is a slippery slope I wouldn't want to go down by starting to FAQ codex entries. There are a ton of mechanics within codices or allied forces that can be abused. Invisibility is one of many. I don't believe enough time has gone by for people to really find ways to mitigate it's effects, though I think there are a number of ways out there (lots of armies have access to mass twin linking). Daemon's are also the only army that are guaranteed Invis (Belakor), which costs them around a 5th of their list at 1850. Add in Fateweaver, a few heralds to buff your WCs and you are sitting at 50% of the army at 1850. To reliably get Invisibility and to reliably cast it you need to invest a lot of points into HQs which ends up bloating your list. Play some games with Psykers and you'll see that it is much, much more difficult to cast mass powers. This leaves you with less buffed units and less reliable super units. I think another mitigating factor is that MSU is going to make a comeback now that transports score, vehicles are more durable and they removed the reserve restrictions. It is easier than ever to outmaneuver/evade deathstars, Marines, for example, can use White Scars/Ravenguard/UM w/ Tigurius to either manipulate reserves, use superior mobility through scouts/outflank and by abusing cheap transports and combat squads. The ability for everything to score has really changed the dynamic and has made it more difficult, in my opinion, to rely on deathstar units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 LValx wrote:


plenty of armies can get TL'd. Belakor is great, but most of the units he can and would invis are also susceptible to tarpitting due to the lack of HnR in the codex.

The units you would cast invisibility on with chaos daemons all have ways to kill everything. Seekers have rending, Plague drones have poison, both can bring AP2 and both can have obscene amounts of attacks. A dreadnought could tie up the seekers, if the daemon player was bad enough to let them get caught. Not much can easily tarpit plague drones. Not a unit large enough to warrant casting invisibility on. Honestly I would probably just cast invisibility on Be'lakor himeslf, or some other MC, like a black mace DP and have them hop around the table.

Blobs of troops that are fearless/ATSKNF/Wraithknights/Walkers are some of the units that can reliably tarpit many of the fast daemon threats.

On another note, it'll be funny to watch invisible units battle each other....

 easysauce wrote:
if they had made snap shots only -2 to BS... that would have fixed this,and sooooo many other things.

but noooooo, you orks have the same chance to hit snap shots as the best shot assassin in the galaxy...

This -2BS would fix the problem only for armies with BS4+....the rest would be screwed...

 easysauce wrote:
ummm.... its no worse then snap firing at flyers...

The difference is that a flyer is typically a 100-200 point model that dies fairly quickly once you hit it. An invisible death star, on the other hand, is a 500-1000 point unit that laughs off things like lucky autocannon hits.

 Peregrine wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
ummm.... its no worse then snap firing at flyers...

The difference is that a flyer is typically a 100-200 point model that dies fairly quickly once you hit it. An invisible death star, on the other hand, is a 500-1000 point unit that laughs off things like lucky autocannon hits.

and flyers are guaranteed, while invis is randomly generated.


your point?

random powers are random... have fun planning lists around them, spending 500+ pts for enough pyskers to get a good CHANCE at rolling invis, and then spending 500+ pts on the death star...

compared to 1000 pts of killyness on the other side can still choose to, oh i dont know, NOT shoot the unit thats super hard to kill....

also, tarpitting is a thing, a "strategy" if you will.

it has uses, this being one of them.

seems fitting that an easy, widely available counter to "expensive unkillable death star " is "numerous cheap models"

 Peregrine wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
ummm.... its no worse then snap firing at flyers...

The difference is that a flyer is typically a 100-200 point model that dies fairly quickly once you hit it. An invisible death star, on the other hand, is a 500-1000 point unit that laughs off things like lucky autocannon hits.

And to add to that, flyers do have hard counters, mainly AA guns.

You know what's fun?

Watching units get shrieked and stabbed off the table by an invisible, grimoire'd Be'Lakor who can't be hurt and kills anything he gets within the large threat range a jump monstrous creature can access.

Awesome.

What happens if a blast weapon scatters onto a unit that has invisibility?

invis has a hard counter: its called tarpitting.

 easysauce wrote:
invis has a hard counter: its called tarpitting.

Psychic Shriek loves blobs of low leadership units.

I think nova powers might help. It says they automatically target and hit everything in range including fliers and flying MCs. So tarpit and have another unit nova'ing them?

Otherwise use deathstar tactics on the deathstar tarpits, sacrificial blocking units, ignore and kill everything else.

Question, Karamazov and his orbital strike. You're not targeting the invis unit with it, you're targeting your own unit that happens to be in CC with them..

Kyutaru wrote:

Remember too that you're not ruling out 83% of shots. The unit is supposed to be invisible. You shouldn't be able to fire at it at all. But THAT would be broken and complained about to high holy hell.

Then it should cost more warp charges. Waaay more.

It isn't easy to fish for invis and getting powers off is much harder than before.

If the balancing aspect of a power is "you won't get it much" its essentially saying "just be prepared to forfeit those games when your opponent gets it". IE, its gak game balance and frankly hoping they don't get it isn't good enough as a counter.