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I am planning to run an ork list involving Weirdboyz and Daemonology since i want to see how badly i'll nuke my brains before the new dex hits lol.

Couple of things i coulda sworn i saw, but cant seem to find might jack up my strat though. If anyone could help me find it i'd be grateful.
1) Psyker phase says a unit may not manifest the same spell twice. What about ICs in that unit? Or in my case, two ICs with psyker powers in the same unit? Contemplating bringing a 2nd weirdboy for backup spellcasting case my first one fails.

EDIT: Ignore this one, found it under Witchfire. Changed title to reference one question.
2) If i use any spells in the psyker phase, can i still run in the shooting phase? cant seem to find anything saying anything i do affects my actions in the shooting phase. Could have sworn i saw a paragraph saying i can still shoot even at a different target than any spells were thrown at before, but now i cant seem to find it

Any help would be appreciative.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
1) Psyker phase says a unit may not manifest the same spell twice. What about ICs in that unit? Or in my case, two ICs with psyker powers in the same unit? Contemplating bringing a 2nd weirdboy for backup spellcasting case my first one fails..

There is nothing in the rules (that I've found so far) to indicate that IC's joined to a unit count as a separate unit for the purposes of resolving psychic powers.

 insaniak wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
1) Psyker phase says a unit may not manifest the same spell twice. What about ICs in that unit? Or in my case, two ICs with psyker powers in the same unit? Contemplating bringing a 2nd weirdboy for backup spellcasting case my first one fails..

There is nothing in the rules (that I've found so far) to indicate that IC's joined to a unit count as a separate unit for the purposes of resolving psychic powers.

Not disagreeing with you here, but how would you then follow Step one?

BRB, Pg 24, Select Psyker and Psychic Power.

"To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your Psyker units. It does not matter if the selected unit is Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. Then, select a psychic power known to the selected unit that the unit has not already attempted to manifest in this Psychic phase." emphasis theirs

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Not disagreeing with you here, but how would you then follow Step one?

You can't. The rules don't cover having non-Brotherhood Psykers in units with other models.

And of course the IC rules say it follows the unit for all rules purposes. Seems to lead like RAW it would indeed limit only one psyker in a unit to cast one of the spells, despite both of them knowing it, even though i would be very surprised if anyone tries to deny it in case of IC's being involved. Outside a tournament anyway, which i never goto.

Bleh, guess i'll just try to email GW for when/if they FAQ the brb - was kinda surprised the BRB itself didnt get a faq - unless i am blind and didnt see it in the list.

 insaniak wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Not disagreeing with you here, but how would you then follow Step one?

You can't. The rules don't cover having non-Brotherhood Psykers in units with other models.

Interesting, this is pretty broken it seems. This makes me wonder if separate warlocks within the same council were actually intended to be able to cast the same named power.

Y'know... in several parts of that section, they seem to use "psyker unit" as a way to refer to psyker models, such as psyker ICs.

It leads me to believe that the restriction to not repeating the same spell, is meant to be per model (except for BoP/BoS units)


Hmmmmm.....

It could be the restriction is meant to be on models, or could be it's on units to 'limit' it so to speak - as in not getting 2 chances at the same blessing on the unit because you added a / multiple IC's - Essentially making it harder for someone to ensure that unit gets the buff they want (& More importantly, sticking tongue out at buffstars). Makes sense because it takes away from the system of choosing how many dice if you are able to cast something twice - if you really want it, put the dice in.

Psyker unit will be terminology for unit containing 1 or more psyker. Or the IC retains some sort of unit tag -The unit he was bought for- (but that's not very popular).

coredump wrote:
Y'know... in several parts of that section, they seem to use "psyker unit" as a way to refer to psyker models, such as psyker ICs..

When not joined to another unit, an IC is a unit.

Generating warp charges is also based on units, not models.

So you're telling me a squad of 10 warlocks is only 1 warp charge? :(

and I thought Eldar were the master Psykers..

A units warp charges would be based on how many warp charges each model in the unit has, unless they are Brotherhood etc

I wish it stated that in the book, unless i'm missing it.

But reading it right here it just says 'adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units'.

This usage of units is really confusing things...

It unfortunately seems pretty clear in the case of Seer Councils that together they are only 1 ML. Which is pretty unfortunate and surely is an oversight...

It gets even more complicated when an IC Psyker joins a Brotherhood of Psykers unit.

Basically even without addressing possible issues in determining how many Warp Charge points that unit generates it looks like attempting to manifest a power the IC knows, you cannot use the IC to draw range or line of sight because:

When manifesting a psychic power, this unit measures range and line of sight from, and uses the characteristics profile (if required) of, any one model in the unit that has the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule (controlling player’s choice)

Also if a peril occurs with a power the IC knows, the IC is immune to perils because of the second portion of BoP:

If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, or is hit by an attack that specifically targets Psykers, the hits are Randomly Allocated amongst models with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule

coredump wrote:
Y'know... in several parts of that section, they seem to use "psyker unit" as a way to refer to psyker models, such as psyker ICs.

It leads me to believe that the restriction to not repeating the same spell, is meant to be per model (except for BoP/BoS units)


Hmmmmm.....

This was how I read/interpreted it.

Jacob29 wrote:
I wish it stated that in the book, unless i'm missing it.

But reading it right here it just says 'adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units'.

So? A unit of five Warlocks has five mastery levels, just like they have five wounds.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

Also if a peril occurs with a power the IC knows, the IC is immune to perils because of the second portion of BoP:

If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, or is hit by an attack that specifically targets Psykers, the hits are Randomly Allocated amongst models with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule

Well, that is actually pretty cool. I can imagine the lesser psykers helping the master psyker manifesting his powers, and him using them as shield against Chaos.

I dunno where you are getting that.

They are a unit of ML1 Psykers.

You calculate your Warp Charge via the units ML which is only 1.

Yes they have five wounds, and all of them are a Psyker ML1 but the rules don't tell us how interpret situations like this and the only rules applicable assume the unit is a whole psyker.

Jacob29 wrote:
I wish it stated that in the book, unless i'm missing it.

But reading it right here it just says 'adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units'.

This usage of units is really confusing things...

It unfortunately seems pretty clear in the case of Seer Councils that together they are only 1 ML. Which is pretty unfortunate and surely is an oversight...

'Units' appear in the rule book in this capacity throughout the rule book. It's not new it's been there throughout 6th, in the shooting, assault etc phases, it is in fact still there in all these ways. Unit is a invisible rule layer used to refer to models. Unit's don't hit, unit don't wound etc, models within unit's do this and from the rules we are able to use the short hand of the unit hit.

I've noted (ranted) on many different threads 'unit' is used in different ways, depending on the surrounding phrases and relevant rules it usually means 'A particular group of models' sometimes it means 'One or more models in that group' and sometimes 'All of those models in that group' the last two being 'unit' used in a permissive or restrictive capacity.

The usual difference (IMO) is actually on what the writer is getting across, in cases where the rules are letting the models take an action this normally goes into details telling you it means all models or some models. However when it's not action based, some rules tend to be a bit.... lazy in their terminology, as the above example with hit by a unit, it's overall a short hand so the writers don't have to go.. ' hit by one or more models in that group'.

Now, there is no such thing as a literal Psyker unit. There are units which contain models with the Pskyer rule (One or more models in that group) , and there are group of models that have Brotherhood rules etc where they all act as one (All the models in that group).

Brotherhood etc models have worked as a combined ''force'' and act akin to 1 model with Psyker, there warp charges and the way they work. individual models do with the rule do not. If your interpretation of 'unit' was correct quite simply no one would have warp charges.

Now you say the line is 'adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units'.

I have a unit which contains 5 models with ML 1. the ''unit'' layer has zero ML. But the mastery level of the unit (AKA Mastery level of the group of models) is 5.

Logically, the only thing that sentence can mean in the rules is the ML of the groups of models, each Unit's ML is worked out from the model's ML (Brotherhood have different rules here).


----
In the case of IC's joining BH not looked at that.
----

But then the rule stating that psyker units can only cast the same power once is also on a per model basis?

Jacob29 wrote:
I dunno where you are getting that.

They are a unit of ML1 Psykers.

You calculate your Warp Charge via the units ML which is only 1.

Yes they have five wounds, and all of them are a Psyker ML1 but the rules don't tell us how interpret situations like this and the only rules applicable assume the unit is a whole psyker.

You're trying to apply 'Brotherhood of Psykers' rule to an unit which is not 'Brotherhood of Psykers'. Unit has mastery levels just like unit has wounds: combined mastery levels of all the models in the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shandara wrote:
But then the rule stating that psyker units can only cast the same power once is also on a per model basis?

No. Why would it be?

You're combing the mastery level of individual models in a unit, where no rules say we can do this.

So I'll apply the limitation on casting powers to individual models...

 Crimson wrote:

Jacob29 wrote:
I dunno where you are getting that.

They are a unit of ML1 Psykers.

You calculate your Warp Charge via the units ML which is only 1.

Yes they have five wounds, and all of them are a Psyker ML1 but the rules don't tell us how interpret situations like this and the only rules applicable assume the unit is a whole psyker.

You're trying to apply 'Brotherhood of Psykers' rule to an unit which is not 'Brotherhood of Psykers'. Unit has mastery levels just like unit has wounds: combined mastery levels of all the models in the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shandara wrote:
But then the rule stating that psyker units can only cast the same power once is also on a per model basis?

No. Why would it be?

I guess it is quite confusing. 'Unit' on it's own doesn't mean any one thing... ...

It's being defined by the words around it and the possibilities to how they can apply to the rules. Hmmmm. I would suggest try reading the rules and changing every instance of 'Unit' to 'Group of models' (Or the grammatically correct phrasing dependent on the sentence).

Should be like,

-Add up the ML of the group of models.
-That group of models can only cast the same spell once.

Perhaps that way is clearer.

 Shandara wrote:
You're combing the mastery level of individual models in a unit, where no rules say we can do this.

So I'll apply the limitation on casting powers to individual models...

I am adding up mastery levels of my psyker units using normal math, just like I'm told. Yes, some units contain several mastery levels, but this doesn't matter, I'm adding up all mastery levels of all the psyker units I have.

 insaniak wrote:

coredump wrote:
Y'know... in several parts of that section, they seem to use "psyker unit" as a way to refer to psyker models, such as psyker ICs..

When not joined to another unit, an IC is a unit.

Well of course, but check out the page or two before this. They use the term 'unit' in many places that seem odd unless read as "psyker model or BoP unit" instead. IOW, the verbage just doesn't work well. If they are doing the same thing in this sentence, then it is not as limited as it first appears.


edit: Even if I follow this interpretation, I still think you add up all of the ML of each psyker in the unit. 5 warlocks do not contribute just 1 ML.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's see some of the uses of "psyker unit":

Select psyker:
"To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your Psyker units. It does not matter if the selected unit is Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. "

So, is that the unit, or a specific model within the unit?


Take psychic test:
"A Psyker must pass a Psychic test to see if he can harness the power of the Warp."

That seems obviously a specific model within the unit

"If, when making a Psychic test, two or more dice rolls (before applying modifiers) were rolls of a 6, the unit attempting to manifest the psychic power suffers Perils of the Warp"

But what about that. Specific model in unit, or entire unit?


Perils of the Warp:
"If a unit suffers Perils of the Warp, roll a D6 and consult the Perils of the Warp table below"

So, entire unit, or specific model within that unit?

"... the psychic power still manifests, regardless of whether or not the Psyker in question suffers a Wound or is slain by Perils of the Warp."

That seems to imply they were talking about a specific model suffering Perils


Lets go back to Select Psyker:
"Then, select a psychic power known to the selected unit that te unit has not already attempted to manifest in this Psychic phase"


So far *every* time they have used the term "psyker unit", what they really mean is "A specific psyker model within a unit".... why is this time treated differently?

 Crimson wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
You're combing the mastery level of individual models in a unit, where no rules say we can do this.

So I'll apply the limitation on casting powers to individual models...

I am adding up mastery levels of my psyker units using normal math, just like I'm told. Yes, some units contain several mastery levels, but this doesn't matter, I'm adding up all mastery levels of all the psyker units I have.

Except that if you have multiple psyker models in one unit, they are NOT separate units.

It seems they can't keep it strait themselves they need a FAQ.

 Shandara wrote:

Except that if you have multiple psyker models in one unit, they are NOT separate units.

So? If I'm told to add up wounds of all my units, then I do not count 'one' for ten man tactical squad, even though each marine has one wound.

This is a bit different than wounds vs units, as THAT paragraph specifically says "models" through out it after defining which unit. Psyker phase seems to completely ignore the word "model" which seems to be a gross oversight.

Until FAQ'd, this will always be resolved by talking to your opponent as RAI it makes no freakin sense to deny the unit of Warlocks to cast individual spells since they are not Brotherhood units, or two IC psykers in the same unit from casting the same spell or generating additional warp charges. But, RAW, it indeed does what makes 0 sense.

Thankfully this is the only thing in the BRB for 7th ive seen that seems to be a neverending loop of "What if...?" crap. Last edition had TONS of them.

'Mastery Levels' of a unit isn't explicitly defined. The implicit definition would be the total for the unit. RAW matches RAI.

As for an IC being able to manifest a power someone else in the unit tried to manifest, the clear RAW is no, and it's obviously the RAI.

My interpretation is "psyker unit" is a unit that has one or more psykers in it. I think the restriction of "one power attempt per unit" is completely intentional and was made to nerf screamerstars and jetseer councils.

I think RAI, if you have a unit that contains more than one psyker, you resolve the powers by model (because the powers are assigned to the model, same as wargear), but still have the unit power restriction. So if you have two Tzeralds in a unit of Pinkies, you resolve each power as assigned, but the entire unit can't cast duplicates of powers previously cast by any psyker in that unit.