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 Toastaster wrote:
Eh, I think Kelly does like the CSM and wanted them to be alright, but was scared of making a fanboy super codex (looking at you, Ward). But the fact that chosen don't have models except for those bling-covered single pose atrocities in Dark Vengeance is a big old .

Scared of... you mean like how he was so scared of making SW and Eldar stupid op and blatant fandexes?

To say nothing of the fact that if you DON'T want to play the foul Death Guard, you either make up "counts-as" reasons for taking the Mark of Nurgle anyways, or you languish in mediocrity because the units you'll take aren't as good as playing Death Guard.

I agree with virtually everything else you said. What attracted me to Chaos (in 2nd edition) was the idea of being a twisted, corrupted, fallen Space Marine. Daemons could feth off, I wasn't interested in them and outside of I think one unit of Plaguebearers for my Plague Marines I never fielded them.

I wanted the Traitor Legions and all the dark mirror imagery that went with it; I wanted the chilling feeling of an Imperial world watching as what looked like Space Marines walked towards them, only to notice something off just before their "saviors" opened fire, wiping them out; I wanted the savage and bestial imagery of a baroque clad Space Marine looking down on a bloody, dying Guardsman who through his one good eye asks "Why?" thinking that he's been betrayed, only for the Chaos Marine to say in a Darth Vader-esque voice "Where is your god now?" before crushing the man's throat with an armored foot and ordering his minions to kill any living thing they find. The imagery of a Chaos Marine in a duel to the death with a loyalist Marine, light versus dark, each a mirror image of the other, the loyal Marine confronted with the ultimate truth - that this was once what he is, and this is what he could become, the Chaos Marine facing his own reflection of what could have been if he had chosen differently 10,000 years ago, and at the same time loathing and regretting it. Chaos for me was always at the same time the ultimate evil and a tragedy.

That's why I played Chaos, not because of daemons or Plague Marines.

It's sad that some people react to our complaints about CSM's poor state with comments that basically amount to "Don't play your own build, go for the single decent one" or "Use another Codex to uplift yours". Most of us would rather like to be able to play a variety of CSM builds that are solid rather than doing that.

I have choose chaos due freedom that it offers in both modelling and fluff wise.

Chaos can still pull out several not bad tactics. I don't hate this codex but I don't love it. I am dissapointed with hell talons, and usless mutilators.

You can always make squad of 35 cultists, give them full khorne set, hide them behind land rider and then charge. You would have aroud 140 attacks. Imagine rolling 140 dices.

Or you can create cheap ass chaos lord with murder sword and guide your enemy commander as you please.

Makumba wrote:
Can't csm players just use demons ?

yes they can, but then they wouldnt be CSM

cant Tyranid players just use Eldar?

yes they can, but then they wouldnt be 'nids


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whiskered wrote:
I have choose chaos due freedom that it offers in both modelling and fluff wise.

I have too, but I use C:SM instead of C:CSM because I want that freedom. I dont want to be Nurgle exclusively.

You don't have to be nurgle exclusive. It is possible to play all nurgle.

Bikers are actually better with Icon of excess and mark of slaneesh than with mark of nurgle and are cheaper.

You can have hard to kill tzneech warpsmith, give him also sigil of corupition and there you go.

You can always use 20 CSM as very resilient cannon fodder which can shoot back plenty of stuff.

My IW would use daemon engines but not actual daemons, marks and mutations are out of the question as well, and by building a fluff build I'm gimping myself.

But the biggest issue is they don't feel like IW just generic csm, is a little flavour really so much to ask.

hobojebus wrote:
My IW would use daemon engines but not actual daemons, marks and mutations are out of the question as well, and by building a fluff build I'm gimping myself.

But the biggest issue is they don't feel like IW just generic csm, is a little flavour really so much to ask.

Hmm... IW using Imperial Fists (there's some irony) with CSM allies (Servitor-cultists and Daemon Engines)?

 Melissia wrote:

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
CSM players have been unhappy

-- This quote applicable to every edition of CSM players since second or third. They whine more than Sisters players, even though they have less reason to

It only seems that way, because there are more than five of them in the world.

I like Daemons in my army, it fits with my personal fluff.

However if you tell me that my codex needs those daemons to be competitive then what is the point of it existing? We might as well go back to the old Chaos book and have Daemons and Marines in the same army. In fact we may as well play WHFB Hordes of Chaos. Daemons are an elite choice if your warlord is a marine and marines are an elite choice if your warlord is a daemon.


The simple fact that our codex is mostly 'Go Nurgle or go home' does not help either. People want to play as 1ksons, World Eaters, Emperors Children and not just the Death Guard.

It also doesn't help with all these books about the Horus Heresy. Seeing as GW have made them about as relevant to the Chaos players as the Star Wars Expanded Universe. People can read about the Ultramarines and then go play as the Ultramarine Chapter in 40k. However people who read about the Night Lords can't. You cannot field a Night Lords force using the codex, sure you can take raptors, but what about your troop choice? Regular marines and cultists fill our troop slot, unlike the White Scars who can take bikes or the Blood Angels who can take Assault Marines. Sure the Blood Angels codex might be poor at the moment, but at least you can play a fluffy force. We can't do that and our codex is not much better either.

What? No, Chaos is fine...

Meanwhile, in WHW, Nottingham:

Assistant: Mr Kirby, Sir -

Kirby: [Turns around in spinny chair. He is wearing regal power armour, though it is made from cardboard, with a flag draped over one knee. He is wearing a pair of glasses, one lens of which has been covered with red paper]
That's Chapter Master Lord Kirbious Astratum, Regent of Terra, Castellan of the Segmentum Solar, Bane of the Dark Gods, Scourge of the Xenos to you, lowly scrub.

Assistant: I'm... sorry, forgive me, Lord Chapter Master, Sir, Bane of scrubs, Segmentum Solar Lord [panicked rambling continues]

Kibry: [Rolls eyes] Get to the point. [Begins petting a model of Marneus Calgar on his lap]

Assistant: Well, Sir, Chaos Heldrake sales have reached 150% of their quota.

Kirby: WHAT?!

Assistant: Sir, I said -

Kirby: I know what you said, boy! But how?

Assistant: Well Lord Chapter Master of the Segmentum Terra Solar, Bane of -

Kirby: Well?

Assistant: It would appear people actually like Chaos.

Kirby: [His giant, power-armoured hand crushes the Marneus Calgar in his hand. He sighs.] They don't make them like they used to.

Assistant: Well, that's just it sir. We make them.

Kirby: Well make them better! With robots! Giant robots! And then sell them for an additional one hundred - no - two hundred percent profit!

Assistant: [Closes his eyes, grimacing] You're a genius, SIr.

Kirby: Of course I am. [Swiftly grabs another Calgar off his desk, beginning to pet it again.] Now, what were you saying about this "Chaos" lark?

Assistant: Yes, well, it appears people actually like to play Chaos Space Marines. However, we've been receiving a lot of complaints that in order to remain "competitive", players have to buy Heldrakes. They say they're the only good option in the list.

Kirby: Well that's preposterous! They have Thousand Sons! They're AP three. Three! How can they argue with that? And they have two wounds! That army has a lot going for it.

Assistant: Actually, they don't have that any more. They find that they die too easily to small arms fire to be worth bringing.

Kirby: But they have Noise Marines!

Assistant: "Too niche, a little overcosted, not effective enough."

Kirby: Berserkers?

Assistant: They refuse to bring them. They say close combat is dead this edition.

Kirby: Ridiculous. Do they not take a balance of units? A bit of everything?

Assistant: Well, no Sir Chapter Master Of the Terrible Astratum thingy. They take mass shooting because it's so effective.

Kirby: Nonsense. They must play like us, surely?

Assistant: No Sir.

Kirby: Well... isn't that something. Say, where are you getting this information?

Assistant: Why, the Internet Sir.

Kirby: Well shut it off. It's heretical.

Assistant: But sir, they have lots of ideas and feedback on how we can improve the game. We can't just ignore them, can we?

Kirby: Ah, but that is the beauty of the Emperor's truth, young scrub. We can.

Assistant: That doesn't seem very responsible of us, Sir.

Kirby: They're just fans. What do they know?

Assistant: [Goes to speak, but is cut off]

Kirby: Exactly. Now go and raise all our prices by an additional one percent. Oh, make sure that's five for Chaos Marines. And nerf that Heldrapes thing while you're at it.

Assistant: Sir, they want Legion Warband rules and Cult Terminators and -

Kirby: Not listening!

Assistant: Oh, and the first draft of the new Space Marines Codex is ready to be reviewed, but playtesters think -

Kirby: Print it.

Assistant: What?

Kirby: Drop the points value of everything by fifty and release it.

Assistant: But Whirlwinds will cost negative five points!

Kirby: Add a line about finding a load of Whirlwinds in a Manufactorum somewhere, raise the price of the kit by twenty percent, and get ready to sell Whirlwinds. Do you think this is some kind of game, scrub?

Assistant: I - erm - no, Sir. I'll get right on... all of that.

Kirby: Oh, and have that Ward chap promoted. I really like his stuff.

Assistant: Of course Sir.

Scene

 SarisKhan wrote:
It's sad that some people react to our complaints about CSM's poor state with comments that basically amount to "Don't play your own build, go for the single decent one" or "Use another Codex to uplift yours". Most of us would rather like to be able to play a variety of CSM builds that are solid rather than doing that.

B-but we had codex 3.5 and Heldrakes so we should stop complaining


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
CSM players have been unhappy

-- This quote applicable to every edition of CSM players since second or third. They whine more than Sisters players, even though they have less reason to

Unless you play Tzeentch (I like to joke that it's how Chaos players live. We are the angry grumpy marines and we will always complain he he he)

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Play 2nd Ed and all your problems will be solved

Ahhhh, the holy grail.

The only codex to perfectly merge fluff and rules.

So glad I still have a copy.

I hear your pain here, OP.

Chaos was the reason I got into 40k in the first place. Granted I played from Rogue Trader, but it was the 2nd ed Codex that got me in properly.

The awesome characters, the epic miniatures, the fluff that made these guys the main antagonists.

This just doesn't exist anymore.

The awesome character? Only Abaddon is great and exactly how he should be, but his model is nearly 20 years old. It's too small. By comparison, considering he's supposed to be much taller than a regular Terminator, I'm thinking of converting the Horus model into Abaddon (just got to find a sword and topknot).

The epic miniatures aren't so great anymore. Most of them are horribly dated or just horrible.

And finally, the fluff. Most of it is still kick @$$, but it's not represented appropriately on the table top.

The closest we get is using Crimson Slaughter as Night Lords and the shoddy Black Legion codex.

As it stands right now, I don't want to field Chaos in 7th ed. It has none of what makes Chaos awesome.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Toastaster wrote:
Eh, I think Kelly does like the CSM and wanted them to be alright, but was scared of making a fanboy super codex (looking at you, Ward). But the fact that chosen don't have models except for those bling-covered single pose atrocities in Dark Vengeance is a big old .

Scared of... you mean like how he was so scared of making SW and Eldar stupid op and blatant fandexes?

Yeah, looking through a friends Space Wolves codex they now look quite good, especially those Long Fangs! and whats with the way everything has 'Wolf' in the name, I get they're Space Wolves, but come on...

 SarisKhan wrote:
It's sad that some people react to our complaints about CSM's poor state with comments that basically amount to "Don't play your own build, go for the single decent one" or "Use another Codex to uplift yours". Most of us would rather like to be able to play a variety of CSM builds that are solid rather than doing that.

I don't find it sad, just irritating and patronising, mainly because the people who give the cold shoulder to our complaints are the same people who play Eldar, Tau or the Latest loyalists, so they can't really say anything imo, unless they played the codex imo..

For me I made my own warband, and I want to represent my warband in some sort of Night Lord tactics as it would reflect my warband in the best way.. But the choice (the word that GW loves to use) I cannot take (oh the irony GW ).

My personal gripe was that we did not receive Dreadclaw drop pods, I waited a good amount of time since the 4th edition codex (the codex I started with and not the 3.5 golden boy that every bangs on about ) and I got dinobots.. whilst I wanted more daemon machines, this to me did not meet personal satisfaction tbh.

For me the codex works well and reflects the background of the army... In games of kill team, I mean look at it, most of these abilities that CSM can choose is very cool and very in depth for its army in games of kill team, a good example of this was the Boon chart, now as a wargame rule its pointless unless its on a warlord, why? because it bogs the game down but as a skirmish element such as kill team, its really good.

And that's the problem with this codex, the codex is meant to represent every squad being unique, however as a wargame its just too clunky. To me the CSM codex is a prime example of GW trying to be a skirmish game yet a wargame at the same time with the main element of being an RPG with their ultimate "forge the narrative" lines..

Untill they realise that if they want to reflect both legion and warbands then this unfortunately will not change tbh, hence why I'm going more over my Orks now... just as many conversion opportunities yet we may get a very good codex along with it .

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
I love that "Forge the Narrative" is showing up in response to my post. I realize it is being used sarcastically, and so it should. This underscores my point wonderfully.

I am a fluff player. I think most CSM players got into CSM for the awesome army fluff. The codex is so far off of the army fluff that we can't forge a narrative!

The CSM codex has some okay units. As a force on the tabletop, you can go nurgle heavy and get fair to middling performance. This isn't really the issue. There were very few complaints about the 3.5 dex. There was only one competative build in that codex, Iron Warriors with a Basilisks, but there werelots of CSM players who dididn't play IW who were fairly happy even though their chosen army had trouble on the board. The reason is their list matched their army fluff. Not perfectly, but enough that we could pretend.

I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.

Actually there were two. Slaaneshi bomb hurt.

When I was new, I bounced around armies blindly. We had a Nid player, a Tau player, an ork player, a SW player, and a DA player that had a few IG. Me? I had some SM and some CSM but no real army. I noticed nobody played Chaos and so I flipped open a CSM codex (I had a 3.5). I fell in love, flipping through lexicanum and even 40k wiki. Most of all, Tzeentch captured me, caught me in a spell so to speak . I became intrigued, so fascinated by the tragic tale of the Thousand Sons and their general tale. Well, turns out that 3rd, 3.5, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th don't really like Tzeentch much and absolutely despise Thousand Sons ha ha ha . So here I am, wishing so desperately to field a Thousand Son army but I never do not only because it takes too long (ancient models that you can only buy online that require kit bashes) and is excessively pricey and, more importantly, the rules are so horrid that the only way to play a fair game is if my friends limit themselves so drastically that they can only field a small few horrid units and even then, oftentimes, they have the edge. When 6th leaked of marks, I got excited. At last, a way for Tzeentch to not be stuck with models that probably weren't bad. Turns out that Tzeenth is probably the worst mark to go for in basically all situations. Sorcerers? Ours are the worst. Cults? Ours are the worst. Marks? Ours are the worst. Icons? Congrats on getting one of the worst! It's a bloody joke. The worst part? Even Black Legion players are often dissapointed. I've seen many that want to use their iconic tactic, spreahead assaults with reliable terminator deepstrikes. And want to know what we can't do? Accurate DS. Even the Black Legion can't even be represented that well. The only thing this codex is good at representing is Death Guard and even then it is flawed. I love my warband but it was built more because I couldn't make a Thousand Son army. Even then, darn it, my warband is literally just support for an elite corps of Thousand Sons really. There is only one positive for Tzeentch forces and it's the DP of Tzeentch and who knows with the new rules if its even worth it.

I WANT to make a tale but GW won't let me. I want to see the return of Sisters that fight with righteous fury, I want to see a new ork codex that charges with mass hordes clashing into a force of Guardsman that desperately fight each other.... I want to see these things. I want to make stories by what happens in the game, tell a story of MY DUDES. I want to see some of my champions die, some become spawn, some ascend to daemonhood. I want to see good intentions become corrupted, destroyed and twisted. I want a few that truly espouse the positive aspect of Chaos but drown them out in so many twisted versions to reflect the sliver of hope that is drowned in doom. I want Legion traits. Not named that way but a grand premise. Such as, Successors of ______, Sons of ______, etc. Names to represent warbands that, although often fractured from their original legion, still hold to those same military tactics. I want to see twisted technology, magic that barely is technology, fleshy machines, machines that have become horrible sights, things that can even terrify Marines, frighten them with something so horrific it is unimaginable. I love Chaos Daemons, I'll say that there. But I loved them more when they were elite terrors. I loved it when the way you brought them into the field was by sacrifice, possession, and summonings. They were strong, far mightier than mortals, but they needed us, depended upon us to appear on the field. The paranoia that at any moment some individual might just twist, flesh, bones, everything tearing apart. Sorcerers of might that show their disregard to the restrictions of the Imperium to truly master their psychic might.

Even more than that, I wish there was a Lost and the Damned codex. GW says there's not enough different about them to warrant them having their own codex. So how is that different than saying CSM should just use SM (we already do because it fits many legions and warbands far more), or, better yet, SM, BA, SW, and DA. So you mean to tell me there is really enough of a difference to make 4 codices that mostly use the same weapons, the same points, and the same models? What do you see in the Lost and the Damned? I see mercenaries, corrupted Xenos races, I see traitorous guardsman, corrupted vehicles and newly fallen ones, daemonic machines, rogue psykers, sacrificial groups, psyker covens and thralls that use up the lives of one another to cast spells, possessions, mutant onslaughts, beastmen, gibbering madmen, indentured civilians fighting against the abusive rulers. I see people fighting for freedom for good or bad that fall into desperation or rage and side with the forces of Chaos for freedom yet their freedom comes around to punish them so often. I see small forces of CSM leading them not out of respect but to use them as fodder, shields. That is the true face of chaos. Lost and the Damned mortal servants, an elite core of CSM, and a few summoning rifts to the warp to bring more reinforcements or plunge the world into chaos hoping to ascend.

But it's fine. We can't have legions rules but SM can, we can't get things and should be happy with the codex because of the broken heldrake. I played the thing for 2 games then got upset with how good even a single baledrake could be and never brought it out again. I'd trade that for "Legion" tactics. People say shut up your codex is good, what? There's hardly any good picks. You can count them. Or they say, but you have so many options. Yeah except most of the marks just suck. And they killed undivided princes and made it so the warp has no minor chaos gods cause why not. What the heck?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whiskered wrote:
You don't have to be nurgle exclusive. It is possible to play all nurgle.

Bikers are actually better with Icon of excess and mark of slaneesh than with mark of nurgle and are cheaper.

You can have hard to kill tzneech warpsmith, give him also sigil of corupition and there you go.

You can always use 20 CSM as very resilient cannon fodder which can shoot back plenty of stuff.

Cool except the warpsmith costs a ton, isn't that good, has few options, and you just marked it to only give it a 3++ despite SM easily getting that. Oh and try to find a unit to ft him in.

CSM suck so it is a waste, bikers are actually arguably better with mark of nurgle solely as transport for a biker lord and even with all of this SM bikers are better. Nurgle is always good, Slaanesh is situationally good, Khorne is rarely good, and Tzeentch is never good.

First off, you don't know suffering if you aren't an Ork fanatic. Seriously, I know they're about to get a new book in a couple of weeks, but THREE new editions of the game have come out since their last book.

Now then... Maybe you're just playing other WAAC lists, at which point you shouldn't feel bad about doing it yourself. But if not, you can win with a more normal list. Just run things like squads of CSM in Rhinos with a couple of melta guns or plasma guns (or for fun, Chosen or Havocs for lots of melta, plasma, or flamers on the go). Use a Vindicator or Predator to blow apart the opposing army. Defiler's still pretty fun, IMO. I use all those with my Iron Warriors and it works fine. Heck, I even use Helbrutes and they're pretty reasonable.

You can also tack on some Daemon allies for more fun, especially with them summoning more of their lads. If you're a Marked army, that makes even more sense. For Word Bearers, it's incredibly "fluffy."

 ErikSetzer wrote:
First off, you don't know suffering if you aren't an Ork fanatic. Seriously, I know they're about to get a new book in a couple of weeks, but THREE new editions of the game have come out since their last book.

Now then... Maybe you're just playing other WAAC lists, at which point you shouldn't feel bad about doing it yourself. But if not, you can win with a more normal list. Just run things like squads of CSM in Rhinos with a couple of melta guns or plasma guns (or for fun, Chosen or Havocs for lots of melta, plasma, or flamers on the go). Use a Vindicator or Predator to blow apart the opposing army. Defiler's still pretty fun, IMO. I use all those with my Iron Warriors and it works fine. Heck, I even use Helbrutes and they're pretty reasonable.

You can also tack on some Daemon allies for more fun, especially with them summoning more of their lads. If you're a Marked army, that makes even more sense. For Word Bearers, it's incredibly "fluffy."

To be fair, DE win that one and Sisters best all but DE for the record. Also was Orks a late 4th codex or something? It also doesn't help that 6th edition was only.... 2 years long.

It's more the problem that you know everything is inferior. Chosen are Sternguard-, CSM are SM-, Vindicators and Preds are SM-, and Defilers are a schizo vehicle that pays for everything but can't do much. It's a book that largely comes down to being SM- and it restricts your freedoms and never try to make a Tzeentchian force or you will truly suffer. On a humerous note, I actually just started building Orks

Also does anybody know how to find a 2nd edition CSM codex? kiddin'

 ansacs wrote:
I can answer half of your complaint with links;
Traitor Legions
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/t/Tyrants-Legion.pdf
Helblade, etc.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_APOCALYPSE.html

BTW forgeworld is releasing a book focused on chaos soon. The rumors sound promising.


I also do not agree with your assessment of the power level of the codex. I do agree that it was disappointing and compared to eldar, astra militarum, and space marines it is very one dimensional. However there are a number of units that are fantastic in that codex and your opinion of strong units sounds like you have not read the 7ed rules.

The CSM daemon prince with spell familiar is the best psyker in the game by far and away.

The CSM sorcerers are with spell familiars are top tier psykers and if you think divination is "good" in 7ed then you haven't seen telepathy which is just plain amazing.

Biker units are good on their own but given a nurgle lord on bike with PF/LC, IWND, and a 2+ they are fantastic.

Nurgle spawn are also great as a bike sorcerer, nurgle lord, or jugger AoBF lord escort.

Both of the above units become extremely difficult to kill with the addition of shrouded or invisibility from telepathy.

Oblits are of course good. They are better with mark of nurgle but mark of Tzeentch can be great when combo'd with cursed earth or a grimoire.

All of the daemon engines just became vastly tougher to kill as their IWND and 5+ invulnerable make HP stripping a chore and the new damage chart loves them.

Be'Lakor is a massive enabler who can shroud most your army or make a key unit invisible.

Objective secured plague marines are likely to cause a lot of people headaches.

Typhus with biomancy, abadon, and kharne were all close combat monsters (abadon is the best IC CC beastick in the game). Now that challenges cannot lock them up they got much better.

The baleflamer heldrake is now gone from way undercosted to just a really good value. The hades autocannon one is mediocre.

The black mace found a new home on a biomancy sorcerer on bike, IMO, as if your roll up the right powers he will tear through units with little effort.

Helbrutes actually got a lot better as the dataslates already made them usable, they became a bit more durable, and can now fight on par with most MC.

None of these units are as powerful as you make them out to be, and a couple of your suggestions are even illegal (typhus with biomancy, nurgle spawn + jugger lord). You accuse him of not reading 7e before judging csm. I don't think you've read the codex before judging csm. The most glaring error, however, is that you think Tyrant's Legion in any way is the "answer" to what people want out of traitor legions and traitor guard.

Also traitor legions =/= Red Corsairs. Heck, that was even before their fall.

Also Oblits suck with mark if combo's. The mark of Tzeentch can only give you a 3++ at most.

Be'lakor is more of a CD thing honestly. Abaddon lost his non dp and non khorne flaw, technically Skarbrand is more killy, and most of the units are mediocre at best. Humerously many liked to use challenges for big solo killy members to wait a turn then slaughter the second. The hades is a bit below mediocre although the baleflamer deserved a nerf. The biomancy sorcereer sucks because it isn't really high ap. It's liked on DP because of high base damage plus ap.

Helbrutes gained and lost. It just means more glancing will be the solution.

Since before I bought my first CSM model, my desire has always been to play an army of Death Guard legion marines combined with their traitor guard auxiliaries with a little daemon summoning for flavor. How much more NARRATIVE can you get than that?

I got a bit of that in 6th but the rules for taking cult units as troops was very restrictive. I was pretty happy when I heard that Unbound and Daemonology was coming. I'd lose Objective Secured and so my list would be hobbled but at least I could take and play how I had always wanted...

Astra Militarum and CSM are Come the Apocalypse now. They used to be Allies of Convenience. So now if my Plague Marines and their auxiliary troops get within 6" of each other they might just stand there and derp for a turn.

For some reason Chaos Sorcerors, who practically live in the warp and commune with demonic entities on a daily basis, are just as good at summoning daemons to their aid as anyone might be. An Ultramarines Librarian knows as much about summoning a pack of nurglings as a Sorceror or Daemon Prince of Nurgle. How am I supposed to take that seriously?

It's actually 12"

 StarTrotter wrote:
It's actually 12"

Only 12" at deployment IIRC, might be wrong however.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
It's actually 12"

Only 12" at deployment IIRC, might be wrong however.

You are correct! Still, you can't be 6" from eachother without problems occuring, you have to deploy 12" from eachother... perhaps most insulting of all is the fact that it makes far more sense for a CSM to be in a unit of traitor guardsman than a SM commander to be in a unit of guardsman.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
It's actually 12"

Only 12" at deployment IIRC, might be wrong however.

You are correct! Still, you can't be 6" from eachother without problems occuring, you have to deploy 12" from eachother... perhaps most insulting of all is the fact that it makes far more sense for a CSM to be in a unit of traitor guardsman than a SM commander to be in a unit of guardsman.

You are BBs with the Renegade militia from Forgeworld.

The problem is that the renegade militia is quite possibly the worst army in the game.

 Kain wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
It's actually 12"

Only 12" at deployment IIRC, might be wrong however.

You are correct! Still, you can't be 6" from eachother without problems occuring, you have to deploy 12" from eachother... perhaps most insulting of all is the fact that it makes far more sense for a CSM to be in a unit of traitor guardsman than a SM commander to be in a unit of guardsman.

You are BBs with the Renegade militia from Forgeworld.

The problem is that the renegade militia is quite possibly the worst army in the game.

Ha ha ha. You know I honestly thought of asking if I could play their rules against somebody just for fun. Maybe give me a few extra points. That's a match I wouldn't even mind losing.

Besides that, it still has no Slaanesh or Tzeentch forces

(maybe they will come out with genestealer cult rules) just wish you didn't have to roll ld so much and then book keep. I get it in concept but it fails in execution

 StarTrotter wrote:

 ErikSetzer wrote:
First off, you don't know suffering if you aren't an Ork fanatic. Seriously, I know they're about to get a new book in a couple of weeks, but THREE new editions of the game have come out since their last book.

To be fair, DE win that one and Sisters best all but DE for the record. Also was Orks a late 4th codex or something? It also doesn't help that 6th edition was only.... 2 years long.

Yeah, was about to say. DE were the first or second 3rd edition codex and then they were the 3rd to last 5th edition codex. Ages, ages I waited for a new DE book. Well 12 years. Kids graduate high school faster than that.

Orks were the last 4th edition codex IIRC, designed basically for 5th and the 5th edition starter box. The ork codex on the other hand is 6 years old.

DE were 12 years, SoB haven't really had a true codex since Witch Hunters and that wasn't even entirely their own. Also, the only difference between the wait is orks had to wait one extra year and also began with a far better and more inspired codex compared to two codices that are rather uninspired.

Edit: On further examination, it seems like waiting 5-6 years for a new codex seems to be rather standard fare for most armies. There are always drastic exceptions but it's rather standard.

Warmaster Phthisis wrote:I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.

I have no idea what you are even saying here. You can ally daemons AND/OR summon them from the warp...in fact your daemon prince is the single best summoner in the entire game.

You can ally with local traitor forces or any kind from freshly fallen SM chapters to imperial knights to imperial guard. How does it make more sense for anyone to turn their backs on a CSM? I know if I were a traitor guardsman I definitely would be wary of the guy who thinks it is funny to torture me to death. On the other hand the only real restrictions the come the apoc alliance gives is setup within 12", don't get within 6" or roll d6, and no powers off on the ally. Heck they are still scoring even.

StarTrotter wrote:Also traitor legions =/= Red Corsairs. Heck, that was even before their fall.

Also Oblits suck with mark if combo's. The mark of Tzeentch can only give you a 3++ at most.

Be'lakor is more of a CD thing honestly. Abaddon lost his non dp and non khorne flaw, technically Skarbrand is more killy, and most of the units are mediocre at best. Humerously many liked to use challenges for big solo killy members to wait a turn then slaughter the second. The hades is a bit below mediocre although the baleflamer deserved a nerf. The biomancy sorcereer sucks because it isn't really high ap. It's liked on DP because of high base damage plus ap.

Helbrutes gained and lost. It just means more glancing will be the solution.

True however that represents a a mixed IG/traitor chapter army. Which was something the OP indicated he wanted. If you want traitor legions you could always play a 30K army in 40K, use SM rules for a freshly fallen SM host (ie not corrupted much yet), or accept a reduced power level to use the items you want. Heck if you use unbound you can just take whatever you want.

Oblits with a 3++ for the cost of a power that you would want to go off on your summoning daemon anyways are a bad thing? Not to mention no scatter...

Helbrutes just plain gained. What did they loose as compared to 6ed?

The nice thing about a biomancy sorcerer is that his endurance power is great on his bike or spawn unit. He also gets AP2 from smash if he gets iron arm.

Ok, how do I play my fluffy Night Lords then?

Hellbrutes and Daemons?

Yeah, get real. God, these white knights...