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 Wyzilla wrote:
No. 40K without Space Marines would be a bankrupt GW.

Debatable, and irrelevant given that we're talking about the lore.


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 Wilytank wrote:
What is Codex: Chaos?

It was a second edition codex.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
No. 40K without Space Marines would be a bankrupt GW.

Debatable, and irrelevant given that we're talking about the lore.


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 Wilytank wrote:
What is Codex: Chaos?

It was a second edition codex.

i remember this book, wasnt it CSM + Daemons? then they expanded on it and split the codexs up, like say Marines? and everyone else, and the marines got better?

On a stat-line and war-gear basis, anything from the 2nd edition Chaos codex could kick their modern equivalent's ass. But with the dramatic change in points value from 2nd to third, everything costs about 1/3 to 1/4 as much (in points) now.

Also the rules themselves have drastically changed anyway.

I played Chaos in second ed. My characters were invincible and when I managed to summon a Bloodthirster (made from a Hero Quest gargoyle lol) it was game over. People must have thought I was a jerk. I was 11-14 years old. I'm actually glad I didn't choose Tau because I liked their fluff. Everyone would call me WAAC.

Yes and no. The B.S. to-hit chart is the same, as is the S vs T to wound chart. the biggest changes were to close combat, vehicles, cover saves and AP vs save and to-hit modifiers. As many units have the same stat line from 2nd edition as have new stats.


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Also, I believe that Chaos, specifically, Horus and his "Heresy", along the space marine legions that were loyal to him, is a major tent-pole to the background of the game. Eldar, Orks and to some extent the Necrons are all also integral to the background by way of relation to the "Old Ones" and the setting of the Galazy before the rise of Mankind. The Tyranids, Tau, and Dark Eldar, however, not so much.

But none of this answers what us Chaos players should do, or even can do.

If you're lucky enough to be in a position where you can house rule, a tweaked version of the codex or a fandex - though the latter may not carry the best reputation...

Or we wait eternally for a decent codex from GW, those of us still in with GW.

Or we play older editions.

These are the options I see for Chaos Marine players right now. And I genuinely feel bad for those who have to play pick up games, because the only option for them really is the second.

In a world where more people are opening up to comp and modified games, I think the first option is certainly more viable than it once was.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

Speaking of Tyranids, here is what I consider a BAD codex. So many just flat out useless units, so many units that can't even do what they are designed to do, such a hostile edition to the most basic play style of the army. The best Tyranid list is above par, the best of the best from this codex can truly be a terror to a fluffy list or a casual list. A casual or fluffy list from the Tyranid codex will be rolled by a decent casual list. I love my Tyranids but it is so hard for me to even give a damn about them because they are in such a state of imbalance, unfluffy play style, and just terrible feeling. I feel like I am playing a very generic faction because most of the Tyranid units boil down to a base stat line without many special abilities or fluff upgrades.

See, I disagree with this, and a few people have said it. 'nids and CSM were my largest armies, and while I didn't like the new nids codex, I didn't feel like it was a mono-build as CSM. I could still reasonably use swarms and MCs, albeit they, of course, changed it so Termagants replaced Hormagaunts and Carnifexes replaced Trygons, but I still could experiment with different units and my 5th army wasn't blown off the table if I fielded it as-is. With CSMs, any attempt to use Terminators or Khorne Berserkers is laughably futile.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
What is Codex: Chaos?

It was a second edition codex.

Well if someone really wanted to say GW doesn't care about Chaos, they should play Warriors of Chaos in WHFB and then they'll see that Chaos is having a great time.

 Kain wrote:

 ace101 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That's what I've been saying. CSM players haven't been happy about their codex since third edition, this is really no change. Hell, CSM players whined a lot about the 3rd edition codex, too, for that matter.

Are you for or against the dissatisfied Tyranid, Black Templar, and Chaos Space marine players who have gone through two, and now it seems it will be three; whole editions where they've had to play with bad books and had to have fun and win in spite of and not because of their codexes?

Last time i checked Black Templars are in a good book (If you count C:SM).

Black Templars chapter tactics and special characters are terrible.

Other than Adamantium Will, I have to agree.

WE WANT CHAOS SPACE MARINES. NOT CHAOS VIKINGS. NOT CHAOS DAEMONS. NOT EVEN CHAOS GUARD.

CHAOS. SPACE. MARINES.

If Games Workshop can waste every drop of blood and every penny making the fanboys the best things evar, then they can do the same damn thing with Chaos Space Marines and pretend like they give a damn in the first place.

Here look! I'll do it first. Space Marines have Plasma Cannons. Chaos Space Marines can have Ectoplasma Cannons, just like the Forgefiends do! See! I didn't really care what it was called either AND I filled a niche that was missing in the Chaos Armories and it took me all of 10 seconds to do!

Games Workshop gets paid to do their job, so they should freaking do it per the demands of their clientelle.

Hell, at this point, I'd rather everyone have an OP/WAAC Codex of their armies, than this ridiculous and obviously biased attempt at a balancing act that is anything but.

What we have here is simple; someones favorite not knowing how to share because then they wouldn't feel like the favorite anymore. And if SM players wanted to prove me wrong, they would demand a better Chaos Codex as well, JUST SO THEY'D HAVE SOMETHING TO PLAY AGAINST THAT WASN'T TAU FOR A CHANGE.

I still totally enjoy playing my CSM. while their performance on the table top isnt the best, i have been having pretty good luck with them. So much so that i have been nerfing the lists i field so as not to feel like a jerk and i JUST bought a hell drake. While i totally agree with most of what you have to say, i feel like persons like yourself (and myself) who play a themed list (all nurgle) are already hitting themselves with a nerf in terms of the lists and the units we can field. GW does not see chaos as a stand alone nurgle or khorn only army. I feel as do several of my buddies who are long term chaos collectors that GW expects us to play all the marks. One of my best freinds went to Ard boys final round playing a One of Each style list with one unit of plague marines, one unit of 1000 sons etc. it was a very effective list. Admittedly he also had 9 oblits in there and they kicked royal arse but its ard boys. Moral of the story. I have started to branch out and build some unmarked and non-nurgle themed stuff. Khorn chosen with black legion can be really nasty. I have started playing with more of the codex, even mutilators. And if you are consistently getting your face stomped in by opponents with really nasty lists, maybe look for fluffier players who are less liable to field neckbeard style lists.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
WE WANT CHAOS SPACE MARINES. NOT CHAOS VIKINGS. NOT CHAOS DAEMONS. NOT EVEN CHAOS GUARD.

CHAOS. SPACE. MARINES.

Right fething here.

They even have a hardback book you can buy. With rules and stuff.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
No. 40K without Space Marines would be a bankrupt GW.

Debatable, and irrelevant given that we're talking about the lore.


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 Wilytank wrote:
What is Codex: Chaos?

It was a second edition codex.

i remember this book, wasnt it CSM + Daemons? then they expanded on it and split the codexs up, like say Marines? and everyone else, and the marines got better?

2nd edition Codex: Chaos had daemons (as in all daemons), cultists and beastmen/mutants in an appendix. The main book was for the Traitor Legions because that was what everyone wanted, and the other stuff was basically so they could throw a bone to the handful of people who had daemon world/cultist/weirdo armies from the RT days.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Here look! I'll do it first. Space Marines have Plasma Cannons. Chaos Space Marines can have Ectoplasma Cannons, just like the Forgefiends do! See! I didn't really care what it was called either AND I filled a niche that was missing in the Chaos Armories and it took me all of 10 ...

I kept saying this before this most recent codex edition: giving Chaos marines developed as it's own character isn't about what they do or don't have as much as it's story about how they've used what's at their disposal to compensate for a short coming. What you point out here is exactly that and what there needs to be more. Daemon engines have been a good answer to prior notion that Chaos didn't have all the Imperium's toys and a general lack of innovation despite walking away with half the Mechanicum. They should be an army with weapons developed from a Mechanicum unfettered from its hangups about alien technology or it's willingness to perverse sacred technology. Until daemon engines it felt like an army whose equipment was held together by some less than evil duck-tape. Daemon engines were a start but as you point out it didn't go far enough.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Here look! I'll do it first. Space Marines have Plasma Cannons. Chaos Space Marines can have Ectoplasma Cannons, just like the Forgefiends do! See! I didn't really care what it was called either AND I filled a niche that was missing in the Chaos Armories and it took me all of 10 ...

I kept saying this before this most recent codex edition: giving Chaos marines developed as it's own character isn't about what they do or don't have as much as it's story about how they've used what's at their disposal to compensate for a short coming. What you point out here is exactly that and what there needs to be more. Daemon engines have been a good answer to prior notion that Chaos didn't have all the Imperium's toys and a general lack of innovation despite walking away with half the Mechanicum. They should be an army with weapons developed from a Mechanicum unfettered from its hangups about alien technology or it's willingness to perverse sacred technology. Until daemon engines it felt like an army whose equipment was held together by some less than evil duck-tape. Daemon engines were a start but as you point out it didn't go far enough.

Agreed. But I'd say that the Forgefiend went far enough, just in the wrong direction. We need more "Deamon" and "Engine" and less "Dino" and "Bot." We need something that looks like it came from the feverish nightmares of a madman, not the script of Power Rangers.
(Which is a shame because technically speaking, the Forgefiend is a fantastic model.)

StarTrotter wrote:So gotta ask, what's everybodie's opinion of Daemon engines like the Deffie? There's complaints at the dinobots but what of them?

The Defiler is my favorite of the demon engines. It actually looks like a crazy machine that had a demon imprisoned in it. The heldrake, helbrute, and both the fiends lack this aesthetic. They all come off as more bio-mechanical which to me isn't what a demon engine is. Some fleshy bits are fine due to chaos warping machines ala oblits but overall they are too organic. The rules are pretty meh, especially when placed side by side with a soul grinder. Yes yes, I know, "just use demon allies" repeat ad nauseam.

I don't know how anyone can be calling out for Plasma Cannons. I am loathe to ever use them with my Obliterators because of Gets Hot (almost always) and small blasts with scatter are terrible anyway. I never see SM armies using them, despite getting them in the DV set. I know immediately a turn of Plasma cannon shooting is gonna be a waste. However, I do love Plasma-guns.

Perhaps use the Forgefeind rules and convert something more to your liking? A generic manifestation of the fevered dreams of the disturbed wouldnt look that great next to another identical model, but two unique ones would look great.

JubbJubbz wrote:

StarTrotter wrote:So gotta ask, what's everybodie's opinion of Daemon engines like the Deffie? There's complaints at the dinobots but what of them?

The Defiler is my favorite of the demon engines. It actually looks like a crazy machine that had a demon imprisoned in it. The heldrake, helbrute, and both the fiends lack this aesthetic. They all come off as more bio-mechanical which to me isn't what a demon engine is. Some fleshy bits are fine due to chaos warping machines ala oblits but overall they are too organic. The rules are pretty meh, especially when placed side by side with a soul grinder. Yes yes, I know, "just use demon allies" repeat ad nauseam.

I agree with all of this. I really like the look of the WOC Hell Cannon. All fleshy and alive looking despite being a piece of artillery. Not a robot shaped like a monster.

Bharring wrote:
Perhaps use the Forgefeind rules and convert something more to your liking? A generic manifestation of the fevered dreams of the disturbed wouldnt look that great next to another identical model, but two unique ones would look great.

I would love a Decimator (Favorite FW model and strong contender for favorite demon engine for same reasons as defiler) with 2x butcher cannons to stand in for a forgefiend. But unfortunately to pay FW prices the model AND the rules have to be good. Both the forge fiend and the Decimator rules are kinda meh. Too similar in purpose to dreads, just a lot more expensive.

Here is a post of bitterness that I wanted to leave behind, but meh....venting.

What should Chaos do now? Not complain, has been the single most pointed at answer by non-Chaos players. Because, So.

Edit: Scratch that. Don't even talk about it because you don't have a right to be upset about your own army, rules or codex. Now get ready for Thunderfire Barrage.

<--- Chaos player.

<--- Enjoys the Chaos codex.

<---- Also enjoys bourbon, so clearly has good taste.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Here is a post of bitterness that I wanted to leave behind, but meh....venting.

What should Chaos do now? Not complain, has been the single most pointed at answer by non-Chaos players. Because, So.

Edit: Scratch that. Don't even talk about it because you don't have a right to be upset about your own army, rules or codex. Now get ready for Thunderfire Barrage.

No, what I did was stop playing chaos.
They're not "our" rules or codex, they're GW's and we don't like what GW did with the idea of a chaos marine army compared to what they used to be. We want to change that so we voice our opinions. If we don't voice our opinions nothing will ever change.

You think it's better to suck it up and play a game/faction we don't enjoy? How does that make sense? GW isn't the government. We don't have to suck it up and do whatever they tell us.

 kronk wrote:
<--- Chaos player.

<--- Enjoys the Chaos codex.

<---- Also enjoys bourbon, so clearly has good taste.

Might be enjoying too much bourbon.

I kid I kid, though I'm kinda glad my Slaaneshi psyker got a slight bone tossed to them with CPF, but still hearing that my army shouldn't have anything it has in fluff gives me much pause still.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Here is a post of bitterness that I wanted to leave behind, but meh....venting.

What should Chaos do now? Not complain, has been the single most pointed at answer by non-Chaos players. Because, So.

Edit: Scratch that. Don't even talk about it because you don't have a right to be upset about your own army, rules or codex. Now get ready for Thunderfire Barrage.

Vote with your wallet and go play a non-GW game for a little while, then see if things change later on. That's what I did and I'm glad I left my comfort zone. I still paint all kinds of cool Chaos models, but I do it between working on Warmachine stuff, and I never bother to play.

MWHistorian wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Here is a post of bitterness that I wanted to leave behind, but meh....venting.

What should Chaos do now? Not complain, has been the single most pointed at answer by non-Chaos players. Because, So.

Edit: Scratch that. Don't even talk about it because you don't have a right to be upset about your own army, rules or codex. Now get ready for Thunderfire Barrage.

No, what I did was stop playing chaos.
They're not "our" rules or codex, they're GW's and we don't like what GW did with the idea of a chaos marine army compared to what they used to be. We want to change that so we voice our opinions. If we don't voice our opinions nothing will ever change.

You think it's better to suck it up and play a game/faction we don't enjoy? How does that make sense? GW isn't the government. We don't have to suck it up and do whatever they tell us.

Sarcasm. <<; I guess I didn't make it clear that I was bitter about the flak being thrown at Chaos, yet again. You know, I joined this game around the time of 6th ed (actually, it was exactly when the 6th ed Chaos Dex came out. It was what made me want to play the tabletop for reals, instead of everything else WH40K). Anywho, same time I get into the tabletop for the first time is the first time I find DakkaDakka, and when I went to see what everyone had to say, it was exactly the same thing that I'm seeing now.

I was dumb enough to not understand completely at the time, however I felt what all the Chaos players at that time felt about their Dex and still seem to today. That it is a sub-par attempt to placate the Chaos players, by Space Marine players who want something to laugh at. That's what it looks like. That's what it feels like. That's what it plays like.

I tried to ignore it then and did by getting away and sticking to the gallery and getting ideas for conversions and such. Even if I never played a game in my life and only got to watch them, I would still be able to enjoy that much.

But now? Knowing that this is where it comes to? This is the fan base for the entire game, not just factions? That THIS is how legitimate grievances are looked at? With smiles, internet memes, anecdotal pictures that supposedly prove some kind of point and the ignoring and minimalizing of actual points and empirical evidence (as in, compare armories and tell me whose is bigger)? This is horrid!

slowthar wrote: Vote with your wallet and go play a non-GW game for a little while, then see if things change later on. That's what I did and I'm glad I left my comfort zone. I still paint all kinds of cool Chaos models, but I do it between working on Warmachine stuff, and I never bother to play.

Agreed, and while I do that, here is a commercial of what's going on in the meantime. I've got kids that love this stuff too. And not just one that I see on the weekends or anything, but I've got a sizable household, extremely limited cash flow and time to spend (I am disabled), and all that comes with. So jumping between hobbies is crazy expensive at the end of the day, and I barely have enough life as it is without having to worry about what the next edition of something is going to look like. I digress though, for a demographic like mine, this is an extremely disturbing trend.

C'est la vie, I suppose. Such is Life.

To be fair, I've been generally disappointed by the Dakka community as of late. I think 7th has drawn the worst out of a lot of us, and it isn't usually this bad. Still, it does suck to be a legion player right now. Or Chaos in general.

Considering grabbing a team to run up a custom codex closer to the variety we should have.

If you do make a custom codex, be prepared for a lot of hate. People hate new things unless GW introduces them (and usually even then).

As someone who played Necrons all through 4th and 5th, I only got a tired smile for all CSM players.

Heldrake was overpowered and got nerfed. What was to be expected. Still isn't a bad model, far from it.