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I am not a chaos player, but I understand some of the gripes that people have with their books and many of them are warranted especially the fluff related ones. However, if someone showed up with a fandex I probably wouldn't play against them. On every 40k forum there are a bunch of people complaining that rule X is broken or unit X is useless so more true and others not. Then they proceed to list way to fix things which is usually just a 100 page thread of moronic ideas that make things so OP it is ridiculous.

Every codex has its faults and dumb choices. Some are more broken than others. The chaos book has several theme lists specifically that just don't work. However, there are supplements and forge world (especially if the rumor of the new lost and damage IA book coming out is true).

In addition, you got some serious buffs in the new book as well that will make a lot of tactics more viable. A lot of things have changed the way you play now, which will bring back the for fun pick up game. You have been kind of screwed, but resorting to basically a cheat book to buff yourself really in not the answer.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Actually the Maelstrom Missions arguably hurt us. We aren't a mobile army for the most part. It's a massive buff to mobile armies particularly Eldar and even SM.

Challenges overall got a little buff. Then again if the enemy wins in challenges well we get hurt more. That and the DP got a huge nerf really.

For the most part, we should have the advantage in close combat. I would claim we're strong than Nids, Blood Angels, and Orks. Maybe Space Wolves can match us. Daemons can beat us, but they have to land their precious FMCs first, and that's when we shoot them to death. I am not concerned about close combat. Take your juggerlord and there is not much that can stop us. The challenge rules buff us.

Also I would disagree. The codex is oriented towards the midfield game. That's pretty good for Maelstorm. We also have many forms of deepstriking units (even daemon allies if need be), and we can have strong backfield tarpits if need be. I think we will find this is a buff.

Everything scores but so does everything the enemy does and objective secured means no more contestation.

This isn't a direct buff, but rather an opener to more ways to think about winning games than just out muscling your opponent. We can focus on aggressive, mobile units that will crush troops, or we can make strong troop blobs/other forms of bricks that can hold objectives like a dog on a bone. Chaos is actually sort of flexible in its options. I would claim the biggest downfall is expense when make specific units.

I really dunno about the vehicle durability. For starters, all vehicles got buffed. Secondly, it still doesn't solve the main problem. Glanced to death.

True, but we have certain abilities that can give us an edge. While Belakor swoops forward, you can keep your vehicles within 6" of him, pop smoke, and get shrouding for a 3+ cover save. We also have daemon vehicles that are stronger than the average vehicle. I would say Maulerfiends are our best unit in this department.

Multiple Detatchements, meh, our only real nasty HQs are Typhus (more for zombies), Nurgle bikers, Juggerlords, and maybe a summoning DP with the flamer of doom (since black mace got nerfed)

Nurgle bikerlords, Slaneesh and Khorne Calvary Lords, Kharn in a landraider delivering max Fck, DPs are still reasonable, the new and improved sorcerers.

We have much to work with.

Not all fandexes are "cheat books" though. It would at least be nice to have the player point out whats different from the standard codex, but I do understand where you're coming from.
As for CSM getting buffs, most other armies got the same buffs. Their vehicles got the same toughness boost, and their characters get the same changes for challenges. I agree it does change things, but so far I can't see much (barring spell familiars and the psychic phase) where chaos wins out.

How many points is a sorc with Familiar? Seems like that would be a primo force multiplier

Spell Familiar is 15 points. A sorcerer is 60 points.
So total is 75 points.

125 if you want ML3.

 erick99 wrote:
Not all fandexes are "cheat books" though. It would at least be nice to have the player point out whats different from the standard codex, but I do understand where you're coming from.
As for CSM getting buffs, most other armies got the same buffs. Their vehicles got the same toughness boost, and their characters get the same changes for challenges. I agree it does change things, but so far I can't see much (barring spell familiars and the psychic phase) where chaos wins out.

It is a cheat book in the sense that any changes alter things in so many ways it is impossible to determine if its more balanced. And while it may achieve one balance against a certain army, it may skew it greatly against others.

You are right to say people got the same buffs, however theys still effect each army differently. A big chaos complaint has always been access to good transports and drop pods. The rhino will now last much longer and is more likely to be glanced to death than die. This means your army of CC warriors can now get out and hide behind he cover generated by the wreck verse just sitting in the exploded hole. It also means they are more likely to be closer to their objective. There is also the land raider, which people point to as always being inferior to the loyalist version. However, only two armies have them and they just became seriously awesome. And while losing POTMS stinks, you can save 10 points and get your harder hitting assault units in place. There is also a dataslate that lets your deep strike the hellbrute in, making that unit viable as well.

The list can go on as well. Daemonology access with DP means you can actually get those spells off. It isn't just summoning daemons either. In addition, you can used cursed earth to buff things like forge/maulerfiends, warp talons, mutiliators/obliterators, or defilers. Any one of those with a +4 invul, potentially +3 if you use the MOT would be really scary. And as CSM, you can get a lot of psykers easily to get those spells of when you need it. Diviniation is still the best tree, but not really by that much any more. Telepathy is actually number 2 if not number 1.

Again, I am not saying it isn't up hill for you guys. But there are some great buffs there that are army exclusive to you. It do feel for you on the inability to field some theme lists, but a lot of books have that problem. And while taking three helldrakes is a bit lame (they are still really awesome), it is better than bringing in a book I have never seen before that I know some guys made up regardless of how good their intentions are.

You have several options:

1) stop playing CSM and buy another army. CSM isn't designed to be competitive, seriously. If you want to be competitive buy Eldar, AM, or Daemons. The units in the CSM books cost more than their equivalents in other books and they often get less in return. MEQs are absolutely terrible, for example. Also, the psychic powers are some of dumbest I have ever seen. Go get another army, play it for a couple of years until GW decides they want to sell models from another codex, at such time your new army will be irrelevant like CSM is now, and you can buy another army. If you do this for 10 years or so, chances are GW will rotate back to CSM, and it will be a good army again.

2) deal. Play CSM, have headaches every time you try to build a list, have people turn a cold shoulder to your complaints about a crappy codex, and get your ass handed to you at every competition you go to. Also, take anti-boredom medication, as the repetitive use of sorcerers, cultists, obliterators and heldrakes will get old over the course of the next 2-3 years.

3) Stop playing 40k. GW has no interest in making balanced games, and there will be no fix to the problems with balance until they do. Agreements only go so far, and they won't fix competitive play. You also can't fix overcosted units. Pick up a game that is more balanced, likely has cheaper models, and is likely run by a company that cares about what customers wants, as opposed to nerdly fluff and stock market rates.

nedTCM wrote:

 erick99 wrote:
Not all fandexes are "cheat books" though. It would at least be nice to have the player point out whats different from the standard codex, but I do understand where you're coming from.
As for CSM getting buffs, most other armies got the same buffs. Their vehicles got the same toughness boost, and their characters get the same changes for challenges. I agree it does change things, but so far I can't see much (barring spell familiars and the psychic phase) where chaos wins out.

It is a cheat book in the sense that any changes alter things in so many ways it is impossible to determine if its more balanced. And while it may achieve one balance against a certain army, it may skew it greatly against others.

You are right to say people got the same buffs, however theys still effect each army differently. A big chaos complaint has always been access to good transports and drop pods. The rhino will now last much longer and is more likely to be glanced to death than die. This means your army of CC warriors can now get out and hide behind he cover generated by the wreck verse just sitting in the exploded hole. It also means they are more likely to be closer to their objective. There is also the land raider, which people point to as always being inferior to the loyalist version. However, only two armies have them and they just became seriously awesome. And while losing POTMS stinks, you can save 10 points and get your harder hitting assault units in place. There is also a dataslate that lets your deep strike the hellbrute in, making that unit viable as well.

The list can go on as well. Daemonology access with DP means you can actually get those spells off. It isn't just summoning daemons either. In addition, you can used cursed earth to buff things like forge/maulerfiends, warp talons, mutiliators/obliterators, or defilers. Any one of those with a +4 invul, potentially +3 if you use the MOT would be really scary. And as CSM, you can get a lot of psykers easily to get those spells of when you need it. Diviniation is still the best tree, but not really by that much any more. Telepathy is actually number 2 if not number 1.

Again, I am not saying it isn't up hill for you guys. But there are some great buffs there that are army exclusive to you. It do feel for you on the inability to field some theme lists, but a lot of books have that problem. And while taking three helldrakes is a bit lame (they are still really awesome), it is better than bringing in a book I have never seen before that I know some guys made up regardless of how good their intentions are.

Not quite. The rhino is still fragile to no end. The biggest problem has always been glancing. Exploding rhinos was more of a nail in the coffin. The main way of destroying vehicles was to glance things to death which is still likely to be a prime tactics. As per Land Raiders which, as mentioned, is always inferior with 10 points meaning little to nothing. As per the brute, it's still not quite viable. A fun option I must cuncur though. As per your claims, don't forget the Imperium can also nerf your magic and the Mark of Tzeentch is still a terrible pick all around. Along with that, a CSM really can't get a lot of psykers. HQs are the only real place to put them. We have to wait to see the changes though with the only clear plusses being our undivided and DP psykers and MAYBE our walkers.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
This is a thread about plastic miniatures; specifically of the spikey power armoured variety.

Amazingly, not a thread about bigotry, racism, or anything remotely similar.

I pointed out the comical absurdity that a poster equating the woes of CSM players to being bigots.

It should have ended there.

Minimizing a position is the first step to discrediting without analysis.

Says the guy who used the word "Fanboy" to describe everyone who plays C:SM. It's not like we've mentioned that Chapter Tactics isn't all it's made out to be several times in this very thread or anything...

 StarTrotter wrote:

Not quite. The rhino is still fragile to no end. The biggest problem has always been glancing. Exploding rhinos was more of a nail in the coffin. The main way of destroying vehicles was to glance things to death which is still likely to be a prime tactics. As per Land Raiders which, as mentioned, is always inferior with 10 points meaning little to nothing. As per the brute, it's still not quite viable. A fun option I must cuncur though. As per your claims, don't forget the Imperium can also nerf your magic and the Mark of Tzeentch is still a terrible pick all around. Along with that, a CSM really can't get a lot of psykers. HQs are the only real place to put them. We have to wait to see the changes though with the only clear plusses being our undivided and DP psykers and MAYBE our walkers.

The rhino is the same for loyalists and is now slightly more durable and less likely to explode. It is still cheap as hell and now can give some more utility to units that before were harder to use. Same things with the land raider. It is inferior, but it is still a land raider and it can still load up units that other books cannot. It isn't easy to glance to death a land raider unless you contribute a lot of resources to it. Heavy weapons like lascannons shooting land raiders are not shooting other softer targets. In the same vein a dreadnought/hellbrute dropped in the right spot at the right time is can be next to impossible to deal with. It is a game changer if you time it right. It can also blow up in your face. Now they are more durable, which is a even better.

Anyone can nerf your powers, but you can over load spells with more dice. And all your psykers have high enough leadership to avoid potential problems with perils chart. The two games I have played so far have seen around 10-15 dice per side. And stopping a power blessing or a conjuration happened only once and took all the dice available. With the changes to the FOC chart, you can now take multiple detachments meaning you can have access to way more psykers than before. You can have two detachments of the same army with 2 sorcerors ML 2 and a prince ML 3. Easily giving you access to tons of powers at the price of including four troop units.

My point is the changes effects everything differently. A lot of options that could not be used at all before now can to be reconsidered. Some will still suck and some will only be elevated to fun category. Others will be good. All of which is better than using an unsanctioned fandex.

But overload what? At best you can get, with no FOC shenanigans, 9+d6 dice and if you overload you are just begging for perils which almost always will at least wound your 2W model. Besides, I don't really want to just spam sorcerers like a mad nutter. As per rhinos, the thing is the buff is so significant that... who cares? And as per the raider, I can agree it MIGHT have a use now where it's more worth fielding though but that's the same for SM in general (and better for 'em)

Now that we have unbound. I was considering and army made up entirely of Khorne Berzerkers in Land Raiders, led by Kharn the Betrayer. Fluffy, will take out big targets with lascannons, then wreck face in close combat. Yes you will have a small army due to the cost of land raiders, but I reckon they'd do well.

Perhaps use a Sorc or possibly even two, instead of spamming them?

125 for ML3 with free rerolls means you're getting far more powers off with fewer perils than a ML3 Farseer.

Psykers aren't just Demo Factory or bust. A Sorc turning a unit invisible? Yes please. And much more likely than a Librarian doing it.

You aren't listening to my point at all.

I said there are changes and they effect your book in different ways. A land raider is not automatically better in the SM book, because you can use units that the SM can't use. It getting a buff effects both your armies differently. If you are so set on your believe that certain units are useless then of course you will never see anything good come out of them. In the same vein, I just pointed out hose it is possible to buff your Daemon prince to a +4 Invul out of the box and with iron arm the potential for T8 which would make him near invincible. Will that happen all the time no, because that would be broken. If you so scared you might lose a wound using a psyker of course it is not a buff to you. Those aren't FOC shenanigans for psykers any more, they are the way the game is designed now. In addition, if you don't want to play a certain way you don't have to, but it is a buff to certain things exists.

Bharring wrote:
Perhaps use a Sorc or possibly even two, instead of spamming them?

125 for ML3 with free rerolls means you're getting far more powers off with fewer perils than a ML3 Farseer.

Psykers aren't just Demo Factory or bust. A Sorc turning a unit invisible? Yes please. And much more likely than a Librarian doing it.

Frankly, I'm really done with CSM at this point . I hopped in here more because I still like them but I'm a Tzeentch player second and KSons player first. I don't want to play Nurgle ever and I don't quite have the number of Slaaneshi themed units, Khornate units, or even artillery themed units to really hop over to them. Also, at this point I'm largely more focused on my traitor guard . In all reality, I get what you are saying that variabilities are quite possible but I'm also rather cynical. The DP example requires several charges, more than it used to and can't assault the turn it drops from flying. I'm just being cynical that the changes will make a big difference. The best I see is our psykers going to a whole new level with telepathy abuse but that's more undivided than anything. That, and I absolutely hate unbound and the new FoC shenanigans.

Oh and don't think anybody mentioned this. Nurgle DP with the Mark of Skal' seems to have gotten a buff with being difficult to shoot out of the sky. Fly him around and either kit him with some summoning spells and watch as you are not only summoning units but also causing some nasty burns or just forget the spells and become the heldrake.

 StarTrotter wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Perhaps use a Sorc or possibly even two, instead of spamming them?

125 for ML3 with free rerolls means you're getting far more powers off with fewer perils than a ML3 Farseer.

Psykers aren't just Demo Factory or bust. A Sorc turning a unit invisible? Yes please. And much more likely than a Librarian doing it.

Frankly, I'm really done with CSM at this point . I hopped in here more because I still like them but I'm a Tzeentch player second and KSons player first. I don't want to play Nurgle ever and I don't quite have the number of Slaaneshi themed units, Khornate units, or even artillery themed units to really hop over to them. Also, at this point I'm largely more focused on my traitor guard . In all reality, I get what you are saying that variabilities are quite possible but I'm also rather cynical. The DP example requires several charges, more than it used to and can't assault the turn it drops from flying. I'm just being cynical that the changes will make a big difference. The best I see is our psykers going to a whole new level with telepathy abuse but that's more undivided than anything. That, and I absolutely hate unbound and the new FoC shenanigans.

Oh and don't think anybody mentioned this. Nurgle DP with the Mark of Skal' seems to have gotten a buff with being difficult to shoot out of the sky. Fly him around and either kit him with some summoning spells and watch as you are not only summoning units but also causing some nasty burns.

Great. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

crimson_caesar wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Actually the Maelstrom Missions arguably hurt us. We aren't a mobile army for the most part. It's a massive buff to mobile armies particularly Eldar and even SM.

Challenges overall got a little buff. Then again if the enemy wins in challenges well we get hurt more. That and the DP got a huge nerf really.

For the most part, we should have the advantage in close combat. I would claim we're strong than Nids, Blood Angels, and Orks. Maybe Space Wolves can match us. Daemons can beat us, but they have to land their precious FMCs first, and that's when we shoot them to death. I am not concerned about close combat. Take your juggerlord and there is not much that can stop us. The challenge rules buff us.

Also I would disagree. The codex is oriented towards the midfield game. That's pretty good for Maelstorm. We also have many forms of deepstriking units (even daemon allies if need be), and we can have strong backfield tarpits if need be. I think we will find this is a buff.

Everything scores but so does everything the enemy does and objective secured means no more contestation.

This isn't a direct buff, but rather an opener to more ways to think about winning games than just out muscling your opponent. We can focus on aggressive, mobile units that will crush troops, or we can make strong troop blobs/other forms of bricks that can hold objectives like a dog on a bone. Chaos is actually sort of flexible in its options. I would claim the biggest downfall is expense when make specific units.

I really dunno about the vehicle durability. For starters, all vehicles got buffed. Secondly, it still doesn't solve the main problem. Glanced to death.

True, but we have certain abilities that can give us an edge. While Belakor swoops forward, you can keep your vehicles within 6" of him, pop smoke, and get shrouding for a 3+ cover save. We also have daemon vehicles that are stronger than the average vehicle. I would say Maulerfiends are our best unit in this department.

Multiple Detatchements, meh, our only real nasty HQs are Typhus (more for zombies), Nurgle bikers, Juggerlords, and maybe a summoning DP with the flamer of doom (since black mace got nerfed)

Nurgle bikerlords, Slaneesh and Khorne Calvary Lords, Kharn in a landraider delivering max Fck, DPs are still reasonable, the new and improved sorcerers.

We have much to work with.

1)how do CSM have the advantage in CC? we have decent CC HQ's, our DP got nerfed, we are worse off then nids, their ability to have LOTS of MC, or just plain swarm us under with swings with termigants etc... a juggerlord is your best example of unstopable? as long as he has a khorne units to soak wounds yeah? and WHAT am i putting MOK on? that wouldnt be immediatley better with MON? our troops are expensive (base CSM) rubbish in CC (cultists) or plain waaaay more expensive than other codexs (elites as troops) compare the cost of boys, IG, termigants, etc and then you will see just how the elite side of our troops will hurt us, pt for pt in cc... need to have the HQ carry that combat.
as to many forms of deepstriking units, what are you using there? mutliators (nope) warptalons (nope) terminators (unlikely) oblits..... daemon allies dont help you if you run pure CSM codex. and if your taking daemons, its not going to be so you can deepstrike some plague bearers on your opponents end of the table.

2) your second point i agree with, our troops if we can stash our cheap blobs away we can be ok, aside from that, you need something survivable, and the top/better codicies eg tau, eldar, ig ( my top 3 really for wound output) will have you rolling so many dice (im looking at say Wave Serpents and wyverns) as 2 examples that not even PM are going to be standing up to it for long.

3) now your saying we can use belakor, under the new invis rules he doesnt provide a shrouded 6" bubble, just makes 1 unit hard to hit ( new rule you may have missed that). now while ill admit i like maulerfiends, my fav CC dread type thing i have seen, the problem is, sure they are harder to explode, they will just get glanced to death.

4) ok the HQ's, nurgle biker lord (good) slaneesh cav lord i dont think i have ever seen one. and i mean ever. khorne jugger lord is good but needing khorne escorts is his downfall. Kharn in a landraider? how do you points that into a list, beserkers are TERRIBLY priced, and that chain axe is just a plain waste. lack of POTMS on our LR makes them very hard to use, rushing forwards means all the points you pay for those guns cant shoot, and if you dont rush forwards then its not delivering its payload...

yes we have some things to work with BUT not as much as you would seem, infact id LOVE to see your idea of an 1850 TAC list.

in my opinion nurlge biker lord will still be really good. DP's will be more likely to have the BB now 3 powers and a SF. Sorcs will be more prevalent, ML 3 SF and trying to get invis.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
You have several options:

3) Stop playing 40k. GW has no interest in making balanced games, and there will be no fix to the problems with balance until they do. Agreements only go so far, and they won't fix competitive play. You also can't fix overcosted units. Pick up a game that is more balanced, likely has cheaper models, and is likely run by a company that cares about what customers wants, as opposed to nerdly fluff and stock market rates.

YUP! I chose option 3 and am LOVING it. It's such a nice change to play a balanced game made by a company that listens to feed back. Call me a rage quitter or whiner, whatever, I'm having a better time playing a better designed game.
I'm still not going to sell my beloved Word Bearer army yet, but they have been shelved.

So the comedy sideshow aside....

It's easy to say just quit GW, but very few people have lore with such potential as GW's has, in spite of how much fail they've put forth over the years.

 Melissia wrote:
So the comedy sideshow aside....

It's easy to say just quit GW, but very few people have lore with such potential as GW's has, in spite of how much fail they've put forth over the years.

Indeed it is. That and it's still the most popular wargame out there. As per myself nothing like building a guard force, Lost and the Damned army, and a few orks here and there from old bits

It was pretty easy just doing it too. Kinda liberating.

 Melissia wrote:
So the comedy sideshow aside....

It's easy to say just quit GW, but very few people have lore with such potential as GW's has, in spite of how much fail they've put forth over the years.

I think everyone who has owned a nerfed/crappy codex, and who also has any desire to be competitive, has a rather simple time doing it. You simply realize that you could spend your hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on another game. One that won't make you miserable, where douche baggery is put in check by the game makers (i.e. balance), and where you can expect that your investment will not depreciate over time (at least as not as fast and as randomly as with GW). The decision was rather easy. You simply say, "I am not going to spend any more money on this game." If that is too hard, you say, "I am not going to spend any money on this game for 90 days." Trust me, once you do it, it's liberating. Btw, you don't have to quit the game, just quit buying stuff.

You bring up good points! Here's my response.

1)how do CSM have the advantage in CC? we have decent CC HQ's, our DP got nerfed, we are worse off then nids, their ability to have LOTS of MC, or just plain swarm us under with swings with termigants etc... a juggerlord is your best example of unstopable? as long as he has a khorne units to soak wounds yeah? and WHAT am i putting MOK on? that wouldnt be immediatley better with MON? our troops are expensive (base CSM) rubbish in CC (cultists) or plain waaaay more expensive than other codexs (elites as troops) compare the cost of boys, IG, termigants, etc and then you will see just how the elite side of our troops will hurt us, pt for pt in cc... need to have the HQ carry that combat.
as to many forms of deepstriking units, what are you using there? mutliators (nope) warptalons (nope) terminators (unlikely) oblits..... daemon allies dont help you if you run pure CSM codex. and if your taking daemons, its not going to be so you can deepstrike some plague bearers on your opponents end of the table.

Couple things here.
Against Nids, they have to land, and if they don't, then they're probably too slow or not super CC kitted out. We have plenty of very killy units. Kharn has 7 Str 7 AP 2 attacks on the charge and hits on 2s. Juggerlords would be ok with bikers. My personal favorite are our new super sorcerers. Make one all biomancy and you just need to land a single hit on an MC with your force weapon. Poof! I like giving a sorc the horns of slaughter to give him +1 strength and +2 attacks (+1 hammer of wrath), on the charge. Force ftw.

Deepstriking: Well since everything scores, I would choose Obliterators or some inexpensive daemon unit from CD. Oblits could roast whoever is on the desired objective with whatever gun they need. If you don't mind running daemons and are using a battleforged army, then plaguebearers are perfect for games like Maelstorm or general last minute objective grabbing. Terminators are ok, but Oblits are flexible. I probably would go with Oblits as they carry over to kill point games better, and generally outperform Termies.

2) your second point i agree with, our troops if we can stash our cheap blobs away we can be ok, aside from that, you need something survivable, and the top/better codicies eg tau, eldar, ig ( my top 3 really for wound output) will have you rolling so many dice (im looking at say Wave Serpents and wyverns) as 2 examples that not even PM are going to be standing up to it for long.

I agree. I kind of have a strategy in mind here with Maulerfiends and Spell 4 of Telepathy, shrouding. Essentially put a bunch of spawn/any vehicle with smoke launchers in front of 3 maulerfiends. Have Belakor in the middle and within 6" of as much of your army as possible on turn 1. Have everything move up as far as possible. Pop smoke (if applicable) and cast Shrouding to give everything 3+ cover. Against serpent shields, you do have to use your invul (if you have one). Sure you'll lose some rhinos, but if they lose their shields, your Maulerfiends will tear them apart the next turn. I have a theory that beating Eldar will involve aggression in stead of trying to outshoot them.

3) now your saying we can use belakor, under the new invis rules he doesnt provide a shrouded 6" bubble, just makes 1 unit hard to hit ( new rule you may have missed that). now while ill admit i like maulerfiends, my fav CC dread type thing i have seen, the problem is, sure they are harder to explode, they will just get glanced to death.

Invisibility does this, yes. Shrouding does the 6" bubble baby. Unless they got rid of it? Wat.

More on my previously mentioned strat:
With Maulerfiends, 2 Twin-linked Shuriken cannons + a Twin-Linked Scatter laser will cause an average of 1-2 glances (yay armor 12). With a power armor level cover save, that's not too much of a problem. Against the Serpent shields though, you'll have to use your lovely 5+ invulnerable save. If your opponent gets the max roll for number of shots AND hits all of them, you might get 2, maybe 3 glances/pens. At this point, there's a reasonable chance your invul saves you and forces another wave serpent to waste its excess shots at the almost dead fiend. Not too shabby. The best part is their shields are down, so your army can go wreck face with some sweet pens.

4) ok the HQ's, nurgle biker lord (good) slaneesh cav lord i dont think i have ever seen one. and i mean ever. khorne jugger lord is good but needing khorne escorts is his downfall. Kharn in a landraider? how do you points that into a list, beserkers are TERRIBLY priced, and that chain axe is just a plain waste. lack of POTMS on our LR makes them very hard to use, rushing forwards means all the points you pay for those guns cant shoot, and if you dont rush forwards then its not delivering its payload...

Land Raiders in my experience only don't shoot during one turn if you're playing Dawn of War table edges, and that's the first turn where you rush up your unit. In the rest of the turns, it just moves 6 and fires. It's really not that much of a waste.

With the juggerlord, bikers would be good, but I still think Spawn are king. Pretty cheap with lots of wounds for look out sirs. If a MC flaps its wings down to face him, I'd direct all my shooting at it. That should kill it, and I can spend most of my shooting component of my army doing this because my lord is face fcking his back line and troops. Even if he reaches me, without smash attacks, the lord has a decent chance at winning. I've used him a lot and seen it happen quite a bit.

yes we have some things to work with BUT not as much as you would seem, infact id LOVE to see your idea of an 1850 TAC list.

in my opinion nurlge biker lord will still be really good. DP's will be more likely to have the BB now 3 powers and a SF. Sorcs will be more prevalent, ML 3 SF and trying to get invis.

I think you know what I like best. Sorcerers, Juggerlords, Maulerfiends, Spawn, Belakor, Bikers, Oblits. I think it would be a sound army. Summoning seems overrated to me. Against flying units, I tend to think ignoring them might be the best way as chaos. If they're vehicles, vector strike em with whatever. If they're FMCs, kill them last.

ok i missed the new shrouding power... thats my bad i thought you were refering to the old invis one.

the catch with moving a LR is sure we get one weapon at full BS the rest are snaps and yeah we get re rolls. but your paying a lot of points for the weapons platform its on.

units i think will be beastial. ML3 DP taking 1 tz power and then rolling on maelific. give him a SF and let him re roll summonings.
unmarked level 3 sorcerers. will be a good unit to take, and that you can take 2 + 2 units of cultists for 350 pts and will give you 6 power dice and all those ablative wounds for them.
oblits as always great and now that you can spread your army over 2 or 3 FoC with the battleforged rules means you can take them as singles instead of units.
Heldrakes wont be making much of an appearance anymore.

allies, im still rather fond of the notion of taking IG. with primaris psyker, infantry as part of a platoon and a unit of wyverns. more shooty than cultist, adds cheap power dice, and those artiliry for shooting their troops off objectives.

things we need to remember with nids though is 1) a HT without wings will still be in combat VERY fast, in a unit of warriors with a venom thrope etc.. can be nasty. if flying he will be shooting lots of stuff fast.

the problem i see is going to be the simple one. shooting is still king. CC isnt the best way to do things, and if we can get there we have ways to do lots of damage... buuuut getting there, sure if your playing short ways over the table your good turn 2 or so. but long ways.. you got 3 turn of moving to get tehre :(

I dont mean to be off topic but does anyone have a link to the FAQ for chaos marines and/or where i can find them in the future

 Alienoid wrote:
I dont mean to be off topic but does anyone have a link to the FAQ for chaos marines and/or where i can find them in the future

http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html Don't ask why it's on Black Library but here it is! As you can tell, Abaddon got in trouble with his parents

crimson_caesar wrote:
But many of ours have 5++s and IWND. For 125 Points, a Maulerfiend seems like a steal.

It is. I have the model but if you play a couple of them together they can wreck an opponents line. One of my buddies plays them with Mutilators. He can at times cause real problems for the best of armies. Mark of Tzneech makes getting a wound in on the Muties a bit tougher and the maulerfiend are in your line turn two and they are killing stuff.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
I think everyone who has owned a nerfed/crappy codex, and who also has any desire to be competitive, has a rather simple time doing it.

Nope. Those other games don't have the lore that GW's stuff has.

 Melissia wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
I think everyone who has owned a nerfed/crappy codex, and who also has any desire to be competitive, has a rather simple time doing it.

Nope. Those other games don't have the lore that GW's stuff has.

Interesting point. That being said, do people that follow the lore find this edition to be a little outside of the lore? Eldar summoning Slaanesh Daemons? Daemons being able to ally with Grey Knights? Tyranids being able to ally with anyone? Blood Angels being able to ally with CSM, including with Abaddon?

Lore is cool, but only when it is consistent. Lore went out the door when GW needed to make money. Remember that.