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Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Northampton

Am I correct in thinking that an entire army can enter reserves now?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 23:06:46


Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Yes, there's no 50% restriction any longer.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Northampton

Holy Nutballs!!!

My Deathwing army is back out of retirement.

YES!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So let's talk some tactics...

The entire army has 2+ armour saves, so that hard counters quite a lot of lists (Daemon Factory, Tyranid Flying Circus), but dies horribly to Tau unless you spam Land Raiders.

A good mix of CC weapons and a mandatory shooty unit for Belial to Deep Strike in without scatter.

What would be a good build for the squads?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 04:32:13


Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






How good is DW now? It seems like my friends who played them just get wiped off the table when they come in by weight of fire. It doesn't seem like much has changed from that :(

Easy Stable Flying base tutorial here on Dakka:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/356483.page

Check out my Tyrannofex Conversion tutorial here on Dakka:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/334523.page

Check out my Librarian holding fire tutorial here on Dakka:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/314801.page 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Northampton

The entire army can DS on turn one.

One of those squads with Belial doesn't scatter.

Land Raider Spam works with them and having 20-30 Terminators DS in your face is actually a tough thing to deal with as you could be in assault on T2.

You have to get of it or lose the key units of your army.

It's 2+ saves should weather the firepower of Daemon Factory and the saves help vs flyers as you can largely ignore them.

Eldar and Tau rip them to pieces though.

Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Puscifer wrote:
The entire army can DS on turn one.

One of those squads with Belial doesn't scatter.

Land Raider Spam works with them and having 20-30 Terminators DS in your face is actually a tough thing to deal with as you could be in assault on T2.

You have to get of it or lose the key units of your army.

It's 2+ saves should weather the firepower of Daemon Factory and the saves help vs flyers as you can largely ignore them.

Eldar and Tau rip them to pieces though.

Everything rip them to pieces. Terminators are currently such bad value for their points that almost nothing compares favourably.

How do they counter daemon factories exactly? They can just spam daemonettes and wipe your army with rending attacks. Your models are also so expensive that you can only afford a few psykers at most, so your DTW rolls will be quite few in number.

The no reserves limit is a buff, however dropping a whole army of 250+ point units will be tricky.
I still think that DW will be most effective using landraiders, and if you use landraiders with units inside then the removal of the 50% limit means very little, as you would normally have 50% on the board at the start anyway.
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

It's certainly a benefit, but as ever, force concentration is key. You need to pick your targets, get your full army against half or less of theirs, and make use of cover and LOS blockers to limit the damage their units can do before you get the charge.

Preferably, you want to go second, so they have to basically waste a turn with nothing to shoot at, and lead with Belial and a large squad. As he doesn't scatter, he should become the focal point for the force, due to the guarantee of being able to hit where you need him. (there is merit to the alternative way, scattering everything and using Belial to plug a gap, but that's more risky and less active)

 
   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Another boost is the fact that a Belial-led DW army means your DW termies will gain the Objective Secured rule. On a Fearless unit with 2+/5++ or 2+/3++ body and potentially FNP (banner), it makes for a tough to shift unit once settled on an objective.

Not gonna see DW in a competitive tourney but still a nice boost for friendly games.
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






 phoenix darkus wrote:
Another boost is the fact that a Belial-led DW army means your DW termies will gain the Objective Secured rule. On a Fearless unit with 2+/5++ or 2+/3++ body and potentially FNP (banner), it makes for a tough to shift unit once settled on an objective.

Not gonna see DW in a competitive tourney but still a nice boost for friendly games.

Don't forget objective secured Landraiders too. The buff to landraiders in 7th is now the DW's most competitive option imo.
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Northampton

One thing I've just noticed... Grav Cents and Grav Marines will rip DW a new one.

Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
 
   
Made in us
Wicked Wych With a Whip




its the same gamble as a drop pod army.

Drop as much as you can in there face. kill key units. mop up.

Termies bring 2+ and invuls. no drop pod taking up space issue. and relentless heavy weapons. Plasma cannon come to mind.

where Dps are easier to hit your target they are limited in what can go in them. and can take either CC units or shooty units. not a combo.

personally im glad it can be done now. gives me an excuse to dust off the termies i have on a shelf
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Puscifer wrote:
One thing I've just noticed... Grav Cents and Grav Marines will rip DW a new one.


They will, but with the freedom of deployment that comes with an all-DS army, you should be able to avoid them. They have a 30" maximum threat range and have to fire directly, so between terrain and distance drops you can keep away from them. Grav-marines have the same issue but even worse, with the firepower being far worse if they move at all.

Grav-bikers are certainly a problem, so I'd almost suggest trying to kill them off fast, as otherwise they're dropping termies left, right and centre and you can't really escape them, so going for an all-in attack may be a better option. Use DS to get good angles where you can 'snipe' out the grav gunnners.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 15:35:46


 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Mali wrote:
its the same gamble as a drop pod army.

Drop pods are much less risky though. Scatter reduction allows them to pile in around the same area, and use terrain to limit the scatter locations.

The squad also gets to spread out after landing, allowing them to avoid incoming pie plates.

Also each squad is much less pricey, and able to put out more firepower than a terminator squad.

Overall, the new reserves limit allows DW to pull off a gimmick tactic, however it still suffers from the same problems as before: unpredictable scattering, poor damage output and vulnerability to template weapons after they land.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Mali wrote:
its the same gamble as a drop pod army.

Drop pods are much less risky though. Scatter reduction allows them to pile in around the same area, and use terrain to limit the scatter locations.

The squad also gets to spread out after landing, allowing them to avoid incoming pie plates.

Also each squad is much less pricey, and able to put out more firepower than a terminator squad.

Overall, the new reserves limit allows DW to pull off a gimmick tactic, however it still suffers from the same problems as before: unpredictable scattering, poor damage output and vulnerability to template weapons after they land.

Thinking about this... drop pods might be beneficial to DW in the sense that you can drop the pod right by an objective and just use all your terminators to go hunting.

Also... I've been really considering adding a pair of Relic Predators with Heavy Conversion Beamer to a list like this... just sit back as far as you can and try to drop those Str 10/AP1 or Str 8/AP4 large blast templates. O.o

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Pods and Deathwing does work very nicely, it's even more in your opponent's face and the Pods bring their own cover for the termies. Alternatively, you can bring the pods T1 and give them Homers, and do a mass-drop of Deathwing T2. This does rely on there being enough pods to survive, but if they're shooting the pods, they're not shooting the contents.

Also, pods of plasma/combi-plasma Company vets are a good way of taking out the most immediate threats to the Deathwing, particularly the likes of bikers and Cents. Attach a libby for prescience and stuff will die.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think DW can work this way, but you will have to really tune your army and possibly use 2 waves. each squad will need to be task primary with enough spill over to act on a secondary if there is no primary target.
   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Here's a list I came up with that could be fun:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/598622.page#6896890

Not gonna win competitive games but could be fun for friendly games and might even trump some Xenos lists not expecting it.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

Actually the DW received a huge buff but not in the reserves limitation.

Their landraider dedicated transports became almost invincible and have objective secured. So now you can have an AV14 vehicle with 4 HP, a 4+ invulnerable (PFG works insider vehicles again), a techmarine repairing, and if someone is lucky enough to pen it they have to get a 7+ twice as you can make them reroll the result. Then when you roll onto objectives you cannot be contested by anything but other objective secured units. Not bad.

Still the terminators themselves are horribly overpriced even without considering weapons with AP values. However it could be useful for removing the good AV killers from the game turn 1 using your termies.
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Northampton

I've changed the title heading as I couldn't see a 7th ed tactics page for Dark Angels.

So... Do you have any juicy tactics for the first of first founded?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll keep the OP updated as best I can.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 23:08:33


Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





3 land raiders with DW command squad + banner of fort. Tech marine with PFG for 4++ land raiders + repair.

Deep strike terminators turn two at key point in enemy line.. Make sure there is a telly homer. If vs melta / grav heavy army DS turn one. I normally run 2 command squads as they score and DW banner is nice.


Also. Knights.

This is 2k points idea though

 Wyzilla wrote:

Because Plague Marines have the evasion abilities of a drunk elephant.


Burn the Heretic
Kill the mutant
Purge the Unclean 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator




California

Any time I have Knights, they get wiped from the board by 2 squads worth half their points.

DA: 8-2-0 in 7th Edition
Dwarfs: 1-0-0
Dark Elves: 3-0-0
Brets: 1-1-0 
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






bryceloop wrote:
Any time I have Knights, they get wiped from the board by 2 squads worth half their points.


Then take Imperial Knights instead

Also the digital codex is updated to permanently gimp the PFG in land raiders so it only effects that LR, no 3" bubble.

   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






 ansacs wrote:
(PFG works insider vehicles again)

I'm not sure if this is true. They removed it from the FAQ, however I've been told that the digital version recieved an update that changes the wording in it. GW basically shafted the DA hardcopy of the book by not updating their rules.
You might also notice that the SOD clarification that it doesn't work with hurricane bolters has been removed too, so can players argue that they no longer effect them?

Edit:
Also the digital codex is updated to permanently gimp the PFG in land raiders so it only effects that LR, no 3" bubble.

Can you clarify his for someone who has the hard copy please? Before the faq said it only effected the models inside. Does it now effect the vehicle as well?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 03:13:20


 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Northampton

bryceloop wrote:
Any time I have Knights, they get wiped from the board by 2 squads worth half their points.


DW Knights?

Yeah, their focus is too narrow to be a great unit.

Against Chaos, they're great though.

Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Puscifer wrote:
bryceloop wrote:
Any time I have Knights, they get wiped from the board by 2 squads worth half their points.


DW Knights?

Yeah, their focus is too narrow to be a great unit.

Against Chaos, they're great though.

The same can be said for any DW terminator unit, so what?

DW knights are the toughest and most points efficient terminators with SS at DA's disposal. I've found them to be better than normal TH/SS due to their toughness when not facing blast weapons, allowing belial to go toe-to-toe with str 8-9 models without getting ID'd, and being a serious threat to multi wound T5 models, as well as seriously tough models like iron armed GUO or Wraithknights (who TH/SS terminators struggle to hurt).

Their biggest vice was that they are elite and not troops, so couldn't score. This issue as been reduced somewhat now that everything can score.
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

I think there are a few buff that apply to all SM in 7th, but some go double for DA, or are useful at the very least:

Super-Scoring Drop Pods: Aside from the obvious bonus of another super-scoring unit, Pods benefit DA in that they can add a lot to a Deathwing assault, contributing even more to an alpha-strike. A Combi-melta/plasma Company Vet squad coming down with DW can go for the hard targets and bigger threats to the termies and hopefully put them down.

More Durable Vehicles: 7+ to explode is nice, but doubly so for DA with access to the Deathwing Vehicle rule. Having to roll a 6 twice with an AP2 weapon drops the chance of an explosion to a 1/36 chance, making Deathwing Land Raiders nigh-unkillable.It might also herald the return of Deathwing Dreadnoughts as well, and the changes to Smash mean they are a viable answer to Monstrous Creatures that would otherwise be smashing up Terminators.

Weapon Firing: A little situational, but Deathwing can now use the Storm Bolters to try and clear out parts of a squad and leave higher-value targets open for Assault Cannon/Plasma Cannon hits. Less effective against Characters, but this combined with freedom of deployment means you have a good chance of setting up a kill on a Special/Heavy weapon.

There are probably more.

 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Northampton

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Puscifer wrote:
bryceloop wrote:
Any time I have Knights, they get wiped from the board by 2 squads worth half their points.


DW Knights?

Yeah, their focus is too narrow to be a great unit.

Against Chaos, they're great though.

The same can be said for any DW terminator unit, so what?

DW knights are the toughest and most points efficient terminators with SS at DA's disposal. I've found them to be better than normal TH/SS due to their toughness when not facing blast weapons, allowing belial to go toe-to-toe with str 8-9 models without getting ID'd, and being a serious threat to multi wound T5 models, as well as seriously tough models like iron armed GUO or Wraithknights (who TH/SS terminators struggle to hurt).

Their biggest vice was that they are elite and not troops, so couldn't score. This issue as been reduced somewhat now that everything can score.


And what do they do after their one turn of Str 10?

Also, the T5 bonus is a trap. From shooting, yeah the T5 helps, but in CC whatever was going to mash them would already be wounding them on 2's.

They are better in this edition, but not by much IMO.

Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

To be fair most dedicated assault units only really get one big close combat to make their impact. After that it is usually mop up.

The big reason that DW knights usually fail to make a splash is they have serious mobility issue so getting those big assaults is super difficult. Using a forgeworld caestus assault ram you can get that big assault off and have a good flyer after. A whole bunch of points though.
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

Puscifer wrote:
 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Puscifer wrote:
bryceloop wrote:
Any time I have Knights, they get wiped from the board by 2 squads worth half their points.


DW Knights?

Yeah, their focus is too narrow to be a great unit.

Against Chaos, they're great though.

The same can be said for any DW terminator unit, so what?

DW knights are the toughest and most points efficient terminators with SS at DA's disposal. I've found them to be better than normal TH/SS due to their toughness when not facing blast weapons, allowing belial to go toe-to-toe with str 8-9 models without getting ID'd, and being a serious threat to multi wound T5 models, as well as seriously tough models like iron armed GUO or Wraithknights (who TH/SS terminators struggle to hurt).

Their biggest vice was that they are elite and not troops, so couldn't score. This issue as been reduced somewhat now that everything can score.


And what do they do after their one turn of Str 10?

Also, the T5 bonus is a trap. From shooting, yeah the T5 helps, but in CC whatever was going to mash them would already be wounding them on 2's.



Keep piling on wounds, tarpitting and being a pain in the ass that can't be easily wiped off the board.

I have to disagree with the second point here, even your average MC is instead only wounding them on 3's with T5, which is huge. Against anything with S7/8+ they probably have unwieldy or are a high class MC so you just smite them into oblivion.

   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

I agree the Knights are useful even after the Smite round. Being able to hit at S6 at initiative is awesome against Tau, Necrons and Eldar, smashing them on 2s with no saves. Also, mass S6 attacks will mess up most vehicles pretty nicely as well.

 
   
 
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