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 OnePageAnon wrote:
Anyway all of this just reminds me how sad it is that a great looking game like fallen frontiers fell through.

Agreed, but that only highlights how far behind this is- Fallen Frontiers had great art, sample models, painting, presentation... the only thing missing was any kind of clarity on how they would make the models until late in the campaign when it had already lost steam. I think it would have funded fine if not for the £90K ($150,000 in USD!!) goal.

WarPrime is light years behind where they were/are (and I hope Fallen Frontiers re-launches with more clarity on how they'll make the models, and succeeds).

 Cyporiean wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Pardon my ignorance but they do say "polystyrene" on the KS page; does this include anything other than "hard" plastic?
Thanks.

It originally did not say polystyrene.

Earlier in this thread (page 3 or 4) they said they were looking for a USA based manufacturer, but the models would not be on sprues.

Then I can understand the hesitance but if things have changed and they make something that I'm interested in, I might be willing to back this one....or wait if/until it hits retail.

Anything but restic is my new mantra; Mantic has forever ruined my perception of that material.

Any chance they are trying to sell Trollcast without saying it?

Trollcast includes polystyrene, and it's sprueless and it's reasonably cheap. Results have been... let's be kind and say variable.

 Riquende wrote:
The Kickstarter equivalent of that scene in Blazing Saddles with the fake Rock Ridge.

We'll work up an ol Number 6 on 'em!!!

 Artemis Black wrote:
Any chance they are trying to sell Trollcast without saying it?

Trollcast includes polystyrene, and it's sprueless and it's reasonably cheap. Results have been... let's be kind and say variable.

Trollcast is a styrene? It seems more like a Urethane to me.

According to this: http://trollforged.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/getting-the-plastic-ball-rolling/
Trollcast is not a styrene.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
Any chance they are trying to sell Trollcast without saying it?

Trollcast includes polystyrene, and it's sprueless and it's reasonably cheap. Results have been... let's be kind and say variable.

Trollcast is a styrene? It seems more like a Urethane to me.

It 'includes' HIPS in the mix, it's not something I would feel comfortable 'calling' polystyrene myself.

 agnosto wrote:
First let me say that I'm not a fan of the sculpts except maybe the "lancer" not-heavy bolter.

Material:

We have worked hard to find a manufacture in the USA that makes polystyrene miniatures and we are happy to say we have succeeded.

The minis are made with plastic so it is recommended that you buy a hobby primer that is safe to use on plastic.

That seems to indicate that it's going to be, well polystyrene.

Their sculpts say otherwise. This:

...can not be cast in HIPS as is.

I note that the Kickstarter talks about their designers having worked in video games, and bringing their expertise across to designing wargaming miniatures. The problem there is simply that designing models for video games and designing miniatures for HIPS production are two very, very different things.

The minis they have shown would need some fairly extensive re-working in order to be viable for polystyrene. And as others have pointed out, their funding goal is nowhere near what would be required.

I don't think anyone calls Trollcast polystyrene. I have read that it contains some HIPS, but the exact mix is a trade secret, and certainly no one at Trollforged calls it polystyrene. They specifically point out that polystyrene cement will not work on it.

Artemis, that said as a person connected to Hasslefree I don't really think it behooves you to be criticizing so many other companies... I have had extensive exposure to trollcast- more than the vast majority of consumers and likely more than almost all companies other than Impact and a few others. I have found it to be excellent in many respects, but like anything it depends on having a part that is a good fit for the material. It shares a lot of polyurethane resin's properties, as Cyporiean points out, in that it is not good with really thin features and can be brittle, but holds detail extremely well.

I just think it would be best not to throw out insinuations like "let's be kind and say variable". I can directly point out to you and do a side-by-side comparison of models that have turned out excellently in the material and ones that haven't, and a lot of the reasons why.

That said, if WarPrime is just tossing out the idea of using Trollforged and saying "polystyrene", that would be misleading, as again even Trollforged does not say their material is that (and actually specifically say otherwise). I don't know if that's what they're doing, but they definitely should not consider it that. Also, other companies have listed Trollforged as their supplier in the past without actually working out a schedule with them; they are obviously otherwise engaged at the moment with their own campaign and a few others such as Impact's.

Yup, looks like another scifi game I'll drop my interest in. I like the Kelk a lot and was hoping they'd show more progress before launching their KS. But they're in an even more binding spot than Fallen Frontiers (which I also lost interest in). Companies really need to get a grip on the amount of preparation it takes to just launch a kickstarter even if a known company is handling it.

Like someone mentioned before, start small in order to secure the customers' faith and build up from there to a campaign in order to expand.

 RiTides wrote:
I don't think anyone calls Trollcast polystyrene. I have read that it contains some HIPS, but the exact mix is a trade secret, and certainly no one at Trollforged calls it polystyrene. They specifically point out that polystyrene cement will not work on it.

Artemis, that said as a person connected to Hasslefree I don't really think it behooves you to be criticizing so many other companies... I have had extensive exposure to trollcast- more than the vast majority of consumers and likely more than almost all companies other than Impact and a few others. I have found it to be excellent in many respects, but like anything it depends on having a part that is a good fit for the material. It shares a lot of polyurethane resin's properties, as Cyporiean points out, in that it is not good with really thin features and can be brittle, but holds detail extremely well.

I just think it would be best not to throw out insinuations like "let's be kind and say variable". I can directly point out to you and do a side-by-side comparison of models that have turned out excellently in the material and ones that haven't, and a lot of the reasons why.

That said, if WarPrime is just tossing out the idea of using Trollforged and saying "polystyrene", that would be misleading, as again even Trollforged does not say their material is that (and actually specifically say otherwise). I don't know if that's what they're doing, but they definitely should not consider it that. Also, other companies have listed Trollforged as their supplier in the past without actually working out a schedule with them; they are obviously otherwise engaged at the moment with their own campaign and a few others such as Impact's.

I said what I said about Trollcast because, well, it's true. I know Ed and I know the material but it has had extremely variable results. It wasn't as sarcastic as it apparently sounded, I was being serious

It wouldn't take long to find a number of serious issues with the material across various forums and it also wouldn't take long to find a number of glowing positive reviews either, that to me is pretty much the definition of variable. It's certainly kinder than spelling out the good and the bad.

I'd consider using Trollcast but it would have to be for the right project. He's done very well with Impact but they are all mostly much simpler sculpts and products. It has not done so well for more complicated things and at least 2 major projects were badly impacted by their association. Hopefully it'll get better moving forward.

I also don't think I suggested anyone 'at' Trollforged has ever or would ever call it polystyrene, in fact I was trying to say the opposite. Ed is quite clear about his material but it 'does' include HIPS so someone else may not be as clear and it does fit the sprueless profile.

(Also if I continue to post in these parts pople are going to get used to the fact that I don't tend to not say what I think about somethigng because I work for a mini company. Too much effort to second guess everythign I plan on typing so my choics are not post or just lose the odd customer who I offend in some way. So far it's worke dout ok, if it goes horribly wrong you'll see me disappear On the positive side I also don't get offended if someone doesn't like our stuff either, each to their own and all that. )

Took a good look at their campaign page, and here are some of my thoughts-

- The Kelk stuff is still all artwork. No 3D Prints at all.
- The big, googly fish-eyes of the Amarant have killed any interest I had in the race.
- The "horrifying" race appears to be space-zombies, judging by the artwork.
- The lancers design looks cool, as does the human snipers.
- The Kelk have some neat monsters they can eventually unlock.

 Artemis Black wrote:

(Also if I continue to post in these parts pople are going to get used to the fact that I don't tend to not say what I think about somethigng because I work for a mini company. Too much effort to second guess everythign I plan on typing so my choics are not post or just lose the odd customer who I offend in some way. So far it's worke dout ok, if it goes horribly wrong you'll see me disappear On the positive side I also don't get offended if someone doesn't like our stuff either, each to their own and all that. )

I welcome input from someone in the industry.

Input whether positive or negative can be stated in a neutral tone. Which would imply a lack of bias.

However, your tone thus far strikes me as overweening, prideful, and snarky.

True we may not know as much as you do about the materials, process, and the industry but, we are free to make our own assumptions, decisions, and arguments on our own.

If you want to weigh in on the material, processes, or industry please feel free. But don't deign to express that you alone are in the "know" and the rest of us are just idiots.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The comments about derivative 40K. A bad 90s business plan. Is it a prank or a legit KS.

Not giving you the impartial position you profess to be your foundation.

Artemis- That's fair, I know Ed, too . However, I will again note that at least one of the campaigns affected did not even confirm things with Trollforged before listing them as their supplier. Which is why I said, if that's being done here, it would be an issue- every supplier needs lead time and an accurate estimate of how many parts will be needed before committing to a job. The fact that so few Kickstarter campaigns are working this out ahead of time is what is leading to major backlogs and delivery dates that are off by months (see WGF!).

I did read your comment of "let's be kind" as sarcastic, because if we look at the results I can, again, clearly point out why certain sculpts were not suited to the material and did not turn out well (and of course, the inverse, ones that turned out excellently!). I have a lot of much more detailed sculpts in it than Impact's, and I think people are going to be extremely impressed by what's coming out soon, too.

All that to say- basically, it's totally fair to post your opinion on matters, but in this particular case I believe I probably have significantly more exposure to the material than you, and so couldn't not address what was (seemingly) a sarcastic comment regarding it. Now that I see it's not sarcastic, I think it is fair to say at face value... but again I think things that are coming will really be showing what the material can do!

Heck, I've got a sample Aetherium model from AdeptiCon that is gorgeous in the material. I have no idea if that company ended up going with Trollforged or not, but it's all about communication with the supplier and making sure that sculpts are suitable for the medium. As Insaniak points out above, many companies claiming to be planning to produce in HIPS are clearly not doing this, since their renders would be absolutely impossible to make. But the same is true for any process... maybe if companies were putting in more legwork before having models made in PVC we would see better results even in what is a subpar medium.

jamesk1973 wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:

(Also if I continue to post in these parts pople are going to get used to the fact that I don't tend to not say what I think about somethigng because I work for a mini company. Too much effort to second guess everythign I plan on typing so my choics are not post or just lose the odd customer who I offend in some way. So far it's worke dout ok, if it goes horribly wrong you'll see me disappear On the positive side I also don't get offended if someone doesn't like our stuff either, each to their own and all that. )

I welcome input from someone in the industry.

Input whether positive or negative can be stated in a neutral tone. Which would imply a lack of bias.

However, your tone thus far strikes me as overweening, prideful, and snarky.

True we may not know as much as you do about the materials, process, and the industry but, we are free to make our own assumptions, decisions, and arguments on our own.

If you want to weigh in on the material, processes, or industry please feel free. But don't deign to express that you alone are in the "know" and the rest of us are just idiots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The comments about derivative 40K. A bad 90s business plan. Is it a prank or a legit KS.

Not giving you the impartial position you profess to be your foundation.

Is there a particular part of anything I said that you seem to think is telling someone else what to think? Or professing that my opinion is somehow more valuable than yours/theirs because I happen to work in the industry? I'm pretty certain I didn't write anything like that so it's difficult to defend or explain myself really.

I'm a consumer just like you, I'm in the hobby just like you. My opinion on a product is 'my' opinion, and I am absolutely sarcastic when I don't like something, and do tend to poke fun at it, so will certainly admit to 'snarky' No idea how prideful or overweening applies when talking about something I had nothing to do with so again, difficult to reply to it.

To me this is the worst kind of bad kickstarter, a 40k knock off, badly organised, awfully presented and likely will never see the light of day. That's not a professional opinion, it's a personal one. It doesn't require any professional knowledge at all?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
Artemis- That's fair, I know Ed, too . However, I will again note that at least one of the campaigns affected did not even confirm things with Trollforged before listing them as their supplier. Which is why I said, if that's being done here, it would be an issue- every supplier needs lead time and an accurate estimate of how many parts will be needed before committing to a job. The fact that so few Kickstarter campaigns are working this out ahead of time is what is leading to major backlogs and delivery dates that are off by months (see WGF!).

I did read your comment of "let's be kind" as sarcastic, because if we look at the results I can, again, clearly point out why certain sculpts were not suited to the material and did not turn out well (and of course, the inverse, ones that turned out excellently!). I have a lot of much more detailed sculpts in it than Impact's, and I think people are going to be extremely impressed by what's coming out soon, too.

All that to say- basically, it's totally fair to post your opinion on matters, but in this particular case I believe I probably have significantly more exposure to the material than you, and so couldn't not address what was (seemingly) a sarcastic comment regarding it. Now that I see it's not sarcastic, I think it is fair to say at face value... but again I think things that are coming will really be showing what the material can do!

Heck, I've got a sample Aetherium model from AdeptiCon that is gorgeous in the material. I have no idea if that company ended up going with Trollforged or not, but it's all about communication with the supplier and making sure that sculpts are suitable for the medium. As Insaniak points out above, many companies claiming to be planning to produce in HIPS are clearly not doing this, since their renders would be absolutely impossible to make. But the same is true for any process... maybe if companies were putting in more legwork before having models made in PVC we would see better results even in what is a subpar medium.

Fair enough mucka, hopefully it will show us what it can do. Spincast plastic/resin is a definite 'will this work' think at the moment, a few companies are doing it and it's been very variable. Needs a couple of big solid projects behind one of them to make the material more 'go to' I think for anyone making more complicated stuff. But Impact have done 'very' well out of it so nobody can say it's crap.

Considering how often I'm sarcastic, I can hardly complain when someone takes a more tongue in cheek comment the wrong way

Fair enough, Artemis

Can anybody explain to me why revealing who the manufacturer is would be a bad thing?

 OnePageAnon wrote:
Can anybody explain to me why revealing who the manufacturer is would be a bad thing?

I can't think of a good reason to not announce it.
Potentially they don't have a spot in their queue until the project funds and they are concerned that any attention given to the manufacturer might result in a flood of other work that would bump them way down the priority list.
So, either it's a new company or a company not known for gaming product...or a company with a negative reputation I suppose.

From the kickstarter: "Our manufacture is making miniatures for other companies that also have Kickstarters. It would be unfair to them to risk their success by revealing the manufacture."

 insaniak wrote:

Their sculpts say otherwise. This
...can not be cast in HIPS as is.

I note that the Kickstarter talks about their designers having worked in video games, and bringing their expertise across to designing wargaming miniatures. The problem there is simply that designing models for video games and designing miniatures for HIPS production are two very, very different things.

The minis they have shown would need some fairly extensive re-working in order to be viable for polystyrene. And as others have pointed out, their funding goal is nowhere near what would be required.

Fair enough; I expressed ignorance of the material but I'm also unknowledgable regarding 3d modeling. I was simply posting what was on the KS page and drawing my own inferences.

Thanks for the info.

 OnePageAnon wrote:
From the kickstarter: "Our manufacture is making miniatures for other companies that also have Kickstarters. It would be unfair to them to risk their success by revealing the manufacture."

I don't understand what they're trying to say there...

Hard to believe the one won't THON/Fallen Frontiers too though.

If I recall, Mark announced WGF midway or so through the Dreamforge campaign due to their request.

I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't foresee me backing this KS, just trying to be fair until they prove themselves to be another Defiance.

 OnePageAnon wrote:
From the kickstarter: "Our manufacture is making miniatures for other companies that also have Kickstarters. It would be unfair to them to risk their success by revealing the manufacture."

Yeah...so I guess my ridiculous supposition was right.

This Quote:

Our manufacture is making miniatures for other companies that also have Kickstarters. It would be unfair to them to risk their success by revealing the manufacture.

Is silly. How would someone's success be risked by saying 'X is making our stuff'? Other than if you go 'Defiance Games is making our miniatures', which isn't going to risk anything for them.. but for you.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
- The big, googly fish-eyes of the Amarant have killed any interest I had in the race.

The first piece of art looked good - the next two push them straight into "Do Not Want" territory. I'm not a fan of the ears either - I was expecting their ears to lack a visible auricle.

I'm also not thrilled by the possibility of the Kelk and Amarant not being funded because people aren't funding the Humans.

 Cyporiean wrote:
This Quote:

Our manufacture is making miniatures for other companies that also have Kickstarters. It would be unfair to them to risk their success by revealing the manufacture.

Is silly. How would someone's success be risked by saying 'X is making our stuff'? Other than if you go 'Defiance Games is making our miniatures', which isn't going to risk anything for them.. but for you.

Seems to be making some unpleasant assumptions about the manufacturers business practices unless none of these projects have put down deposits or anything until they fund. I don't deal with this sort of production but I assume there are no firm contracts without money changing hands. I'm not sure what potential miniature manufacturers are hovering around waiting to pounce on a plastics manufacturer that they apparently can't find on their own though.

Well, that wasn't what I was hoping to see.

First I have to watch Japan lose their game today, now I see that a lot of the suggestions we were making have not been implemented (yet I hope).

Was hoping to see some Kelk renders, or even a human vs kelk pack starter set of some sort. Really like those big lizards. I hope those can translate well into a 3D model.

Not liking those Amarant eyes at all though. Way too cartoony.

Their sculpts don't really do their concept art any justice, in my opinion. The human CA is good, and different enough from 40k.

Not a fan of their not-Orcs. They look like someone took the Uruk Hai from LotR, thickened them up, added a dash of reptile, and gave them guns. Still reads way too close to Uruk Hai to me.

Those things combined with unanswered questions keeps me well away. I really wish Fallen Frontiers hadn't been cancelled...

~Eric

Man, this didn't turn out as well as I'd hoped it would. I did have high hopes for this, too. Still, it seems like a lot of you guys are complaining just for the sake of complaining.

I am increasingly thinking that these new companies should get traditional investment to produce 1 core sprue/boxed set and get it to retail. After that they can Kickstart the rest of the line giving the backer some confidence to invest their money as they have already produced a finished product. That way a lot of the issues that seem to crop up during fulfillment could be avoided as the creators already have the necessary business relationships in place.

This strategy certainly worked out well for Defiance.

 OnePageAnon wrote:
Here is the thing, and this is just a general question (not trying to be a dick or anything), but does wargaming really need warprime?

There are plenty of companies already that offer quality proxys that are affordable and look great.
There are plenty of companies already that offer bulks of proxys that are extremely cheap.
There are plenty of companies already that offer 28mm squad-sized sci-fi games with this aesthetic.

Care to share the names of some of those companies, because I'd be interested. Off the top of my head, the only companies that actually fall into those categories would be Mantic and Wargames Factory/Dreamforge. Now, if you're counting Maxmini, Kromlech, Bitspudlo, Spellcrow, Hitech, and Scibor, I absolutely wouldn't consider them to be "affordable" or "cheap." I'd say that they're comparable to GW's or FW's pricing. Possibly a bit better, but certainly not cheap. Not to mention that Maxmini and Kromlech only offer a few full figures, and even then, only Kromlech offers army bundles with their German Orks. So, who else out there produces cheap proxies that fit the 40k aesthetic?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 agnosto wrote:

This:

...can not be cast in HIPS as is.

Actually, they did say that they would rework the renders for plastic. As-is, these guys have their heads fixed to the bodies, but if you notice, they mention in the stretch goals adding in new heads. Plus it was mentioned that they would be doing some different shoulder armor as well. So, I imagine that the existing render was designed solely for the 3D printing and that it'll be tweaked for actual production with more appropriate cuts added in.

So what you're saying is, the finished product will look very different from the render they've shown? And is that a good thing?

 Sinful Hero wrote:
So what you're saying is, the finished product will look very different from the render they've shown? And is that a good thing?

No, I said they're going to change where the parts separate, not resculpt the thing. Why would it look different from the render? All of the prototype figures were created using a poseable 3D render. I'd imagine they'll be using that exact same render for the production figures too, just with the parts separated differently.

also, if you look at the renders they've shown, some of them show the finished design without the shoulder pads, so those were clearly designed to be a separate piece. Actually, they look a lot better without them.