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punchdub wrote: Here's the thing. If you realized this (the mis-information/cheating/honest mistake) the next day you had an obligation to go to the TO and let them know what took place. If your opponent was a bad sport you had an obligation to give him a thumbs down. From your blog post it doesn't appear that you did either of these things. If what you say is true then it really sucks for you. However, if what you say is not true then it really sucks for your opponent. Either way, not going to the TO and instead posting to your blog after the event just creates an environment of hate on the internet around events like the BAO, which was a well run, well executed event. The BAO was awesome this year and I want to thank Reece, Frankie and all of the volunteers and players for a great weekend of gaming.
Your choice for airing your grievances has cast a cloud on the event; one that could have been avoided if you had addressed the matter in a timely manner through the proper channels. Instead we're left with a pile of steaming poo in the middle of the room and people pointing fingers on both sides.
What a shame.
Well, I was really hoping I was done here, you're also more than welcome to comment on my blog so that I'm not filling up Dakka threads with this.
It takes a lot for me to give someone a thumbs down (I've literally never done it before), I mentioned it in passing the next morning to one of the staff and they said that since the game was already long done and over, they couldn't really do anything. Reece is a friend of mine, and the last thing I'd want to do is tarnish his name or reputation, it wasn't his fault, or the staff, and I didn't really see the point in pressing the issue any further with them, I also didn't figure he'd go on to win it. I posted on MY blog after feeling frustrated, it was a crappy situation that I've never been in before and wasn't exactly sure what I should have done, thinking that by posting about it, i'd get my usual couple hundred (not 1500+) views and maybe get some sagely words of wisdom. If by the time you find out someone played something fairly dramatically wrong, it's too late, what recourse do you have? If you're upset that I express my opinions on my blog, I suggest you don't read my blog, it's pretty simple.
The funny thing is that the only person who said I was unpleasant to play against is someone I never saw or even met, at this event or any, and plays in the same club as the guy who was a total jerk to me. It seems that everyone else who has experienced the joy of playing him had an equally miserable time, and all my opponents seemed to enjoy the games they had with me, so I'm not really concerned about it.
As MVBrandt said though, there is one bad game for every thousand good game and my number was up. The rest of the event was fun, and with the new edition encouraging more diversity in army lists, I can even say it was probably one of my most enjoyable 40k tournaments, despite the cloud over my 3rd game.
So if he hadn't won you wouldn't have written the blog post?
Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
Maybe he should have said something then and there, that's true. But the negative reaction he is getting is why people DON'T report this kind of **** immediately. He got cheated out of a game and instead of saying that cheating should not be tolerated, people are saying that this shouldn't be mentioned. You're blaming the victim.
Edited so that my "bad word" wouldn't be replaced by the word "gak," which I find to be far grosser/dumber sounding.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/29 22:37:44
Warmonger2757 wrote: A buddy of mine was there, he did ok. One of the armies he played was way over on points though. He said his opponent was playing Necrons with Tau allies. I asked him to give me the copy of his opponents list but I haven't seen it. He said his opponent fielded the following:
2 Overlords with CCB
2 Ghost arks
2 ABs
1 Night scythe
1 Doom Scythe
1 Riptide
6 Broadsides
Assuming Minimum troops on all the transports, Semp weave, Phase shifters, Warscythes on the Lords, the cheapest tau commander, cheapest unit of Tau troops (unless this is a tau formation) this list comes in at over 2000 points.
If anyone knows otherwise on this, I don't doubt that there is the possibility my friend was wrong since I haven't seen the opponent list. Even at a quick look, this is way too many points. I would have assumed that someone would review all the lists in the tournament.
Seems totally fine. The Tau will be part of the Firebase Cadre presumably, needing no troops or HQ. It's also entirely possible some of that wargear wasn't on the Overlords either.
Can someone check my numbers, this seems to come out to 1880 points. How many points is the tau formation? Is there a discount?
I made the checks from the codex es. The broadside team points are 200 not 210. So the list is 1860 that way, And also don't forget that this list was posted pre tournament so he could have just removed 2 target locks from the broadside teams and get 1850.
Grey Templar wrote: The Riptide can't be a giant death robot, its completely lacking a sword or massive chainsaw. All giant death robots have swords or massive chainsaws.
Warmonger2757 wrote: A buddy of mine was there, he did ok. One of the armies he played was way over on points though. He said his opponent was playing Necrons with Tau allies. I asked him to give me the copy of his opponents list but I haven't seen it. He said his opponent fielded the following:
2 Overlords with CCB
2 Ghost arks
2 ABs
1 Night scythe
1 Doom Scythe
1 Riptide
6 Broadsides
Assuming Minimum troops on all the transports, Semp weave, Phase shifters, Warscythes on the Lords, the cheapest tau commander, cheapest unit of Tau troops (unless this is a tau formation) this list comes in at over 2000 points.
If anyone knows otherwise on this, I don't doubt that there is the possibility my friend was wrong since I haven't seen the opponent list. Even at a quick look, this is way too many points. I would have assumed that someone would review all the lists in the tournament.
Seems totally fine. The Tau will be part of the Firebase Cadre presumably, needing no troops or HQ. It's also entirely possible some of that wargear wasn't on the Overlords either.
Can someone check my numbers, this seems to come out to 1880 points. How many points is the tau formation? Is there a discount?
I made the checks from the codex es. The broadside team points are 200 not 210. So the list is 1860 that way, And also don't forget that this list was posted pre tournament so he could have just removed 2 target locks from the broadside teams and get 1850.
Ah ok, yeah I see, he only has one Target lock each team, not one target lock on each model. But yeah, that still puts him 10pts over. I guess that's not as bad as I thought. It's still not legal as he's over on points, but at least it's no where near as bad as I thought it was.
thunderingjove wrote: I had a great first day, but eat sometimes (probably a medium-rare burger at a Star Wars themed bar), and couldn't attend the second day due to food poisoning. Talk about bad luck.
We got out of that place as quickly as we could, what a dive. Opted for some sushi downtown instead. Sorry to hear about your pains - just be glad you didn't come back as the one thing that wasn't up to par was the stock of TP in the bathroom on day 2 after about 11am.
That was the worse. My pants where down by the time I figured that out
People should always speak up right then and there when something shady is going on or when they suspect something shady is going on. This allows shady play to either be exposed or clarified as something that appears shady to one player may in reality just be a difference of opinion/perception or inadvertence and actually quite innocent. Therefore, you know, talking about problems actually helps resolve them rather than holding them in and brooding over them.
The problem is when you don't discover the "shadiness" until later on and at that point what is the best thing to do? Well, you can always find the opponent and discuss the matter with them or you can post about it publicly and invite the other player involved to give their side of the story and this allows matters to be clarified and at the very least puts people on notice. If you don't at least try to work it out in some way then you are part of the problem.
On that vein of thought, Minion is just giving his side of what happened to him on his own personal blog and that is perfectly ok. Some other people brought it up here so naturally he got dragged into the discussion. If his opponent wants to clarify the situation, he can go ahead. The fact, however, that the opponent in question already received a "thumbs down" for sports from a previous game is a pretty big deal for a tournament with as laid back a sports grading system as BAO. Would be interesting to hear about what happened there. In the meantime, I think it is best we give the opponent the benefit of the doubt and just beware for next time.
Once again, communication is key between both players. If everyone made it a point to call out potential shadiness or at the very least provide an opportunity for clarification then this sort of problem would be greatly mitigated. So while everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt, there is nothing wrong with asking questions or for explanations of what is going on.
Ultimately, one major problem is when people observe what appears to be shady play and don't do anything about it or give the opponent an opportunity to clarify or resolve an issue but then just complain behind people's backs which is arguably worse and leads to hearsay upon hearsay and exaggeration. Even worse is to go into a game presupposing something about a player and letting that bias color everything they do instead of starting a dialogue with them before the game starts or talking to them as things come up. If a player in question is innocent and reasonable, talking to them in an amicable/respectful manner should resolve the issue. Simply saying "hey I noticed this or observed that, can you talk to me about it?" However, that does take some maturity, respect and communication skills from both parties which may be a problem in and of itself.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/07/29 23:33:10
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
That's some sick painting. Seriously good work, wish I could have seen it in person!
Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
I just wanted to throw my two cents in and say that while this was my first tournament, and i have nothing prior to compare it to. I thought it was run extremely well, and i had a hell of a time!
The guys at Frontline really ran things well and I've had nothing but great things to say to those who have asked me about the tournament.
Thanks again to everyone involved in setting it up, and hopefully you all know that there are people who appreciate the behind the scenes stuff. I will definitely be at the LVO!
And a big shout out to Grant V who gave me one of the funnest games i've ever played in, and passed on some pretty awesome tips as well.
Brothererekose wrote: Reece, that Tau diorama needs to be posted, where the FW is holding his hand out to the kid.
Anyone got a good pic of it?
Wait'll you see that, OverWatch.
I want to see that!!
Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
"If you see fraud and don't shout fraud - you are a fraud."
It's very hard to catch cheating in 40k, so generally behind any exposed occurrances of it there are hundreds of hidden ones.
Nobody must care how "well" the tournament was run if it's win by cheater. We are living in the 21 sentury, is it really hard to find other Steve Sisk's opponents and get confirmation/refutation of such claims?
elotar wrote: "If you see fraud and don't shout fraud - you are a fraud."
It's very hard to catch cheating in 40k, so generally behind any exposed occurrances of it there are hundreds of hidden ones.
Nobody must care how "well" the tournament was run if it's win by cheater. We are living in the 21 sentury, is it really hard to find other Steve Sisk's opponents and get confirmation/refutation of such claims?
It is not.
Checking TorrentofFire yields that round two opponent did not give a thumbs up.
"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.
"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013
elotar wrote: "If you see fraud and don't shout fraud - you are a fraud."
It's very hard to catch cheating in 40k, so generally behind any exposed occurrances of it there are hundreds of hidden ones.
Nobody must care how "well" the tournament was run if it's win by cheater. We are living in the 21 sentury, is it really hard to find other Steve Sisk's opponents and get confirmation/refutation of such claims?
I disagree. The average person can effectively supervise 3 to 5 people in a work place before the quality of the supervision becomes effected (see "span of control"). Applying that as a rough guide, a tournament the size of the BAO would need 12 judges each watching 5 games every round to really have an idea of how each game developed and who was or was not trying to play by the rules. A tournament can only do so much and we should care of the quality of which it was run. BAO awarded a winner based on all information submitted and known to them at the time. There are no allegations that the TOs somehow shaded the event to favor the winner or other shennanigans on their part. A great event run by a great team. It matters. You can't penalize them for not knowing information that comes out after the fact.
He's not saying to penalize Frontline; as I read it, he's simply saying that, because the results appear to be based on a cheat, the results are invalid. If the accusations can be substantiated or refuted, then perhaps we can begin to respect the results. Because 40k is so outlandishly easy to cheat at in many small, nigh imperceptible, ways, it makes it more important to vocally and publically stop cheating when it is so egregious that we somehow DO see it. The message must be that cheating cannot be tolerated.
The allegations are based solely upon hearsay. As such it doesn't mean all that much and people shouldn't believe everything they read on the Internet.
Dozer Blades wrote: The allegations are based solely upon hearsay. As such it doesn't mean all that much and people shouldn't believe everything they read on the Internet.
This is technically incorrect since there is no warhammer court, and statements regarding this subject matter are never under oath. For our purposes, hearsay would be repeating what one heard someone else say rather than what one actually witnessed or experienced firsthand. Minion is giving us what he himself experienced first hand and others have pointed out the verifiable fact that minion's opponent had received a "thumbs down" on sports during his second game.
Believe what you will and leave it at that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 15:23:46
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
He should have addressed his grievance at the GT. Reading his posts here he comes across to me as a sore loser with an axe to grind. His excuses are just that too and nothing more. There is nothing substantial enough to warrant any merit. How would you like if someone attacked you in a similar manner - is it still okay ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 15:20:53
Given the allegations come from also a long time member of the gaming community, they are from the third round not the final or even the last rounds of the tournament, the player in question had another thumbs down, and many people from the gaming community have come forth and said this player has a history of doing similar things- its very likely the allegations are true. Given they rolled for end of game, a very important roll without the other player looking and then telling them is in itself IMO unsportsmanlike. That's something like seizing, or roll for table edge/side. You look at your opponent, you tell them what you are doing, and you make sure they are paying attention- if they aren't you wait until they are remind them then roll.
If the player in question had received no other thumbs downs at the tournament, and it was the last match of the game tournament it would be much more suspect.
Ultimately it is up to FG to decide if they want to do anything / care, or if it matters.
I'm under the belief that in a tournament where someone can be ejected for getting 2 thumbs downs, that thumbs downs are handed out rarely as they are highly significant. That means the person who gave the first thumbs down either was themselves petty, or the player in question was in fact cheating / completely terrible to play against / some combination of TFG.
Most cheating in 40k is either immediately caught or not found out until much later. And given the vast amount of rules, the modifications of general rules based on special rules, the further modification of general rules based on codex rules, the further modification of general rules based on specific items/rules for sub entries in a codex, the game has a lot of rules and is quite easy for a player to misrepresent / cheat / forget what a rule is.
It's less likely to not know the rules if its your own army that you are playing and you forget a rule, than a rule for someone elses army that you may not know as well.
This leads to players either immediately knowing something is wrong and calling the other player, or not realizing it until they are talking about their match to someone later who does know that armies rules much better.
That some people burdened the accuser is ridiculous. A player has to knowingly decide to cheat and then it shouldn't be the burden of their opponent to know if they are cheating or not. I may be mistaken but I don't think the accuser even came out and said the other player was cheating, but even left it open that the player may have forgotten the rules or been confused.
If we had to constantly ask each other for each others army lists and check every item and every stat at every round of firing/assault/anything the game would take a long time. We have to have some level of trust in our opponent under the assumption that even though it is a competitive tournament, we are gentelepeople with honor and respect for each other as well as ourselves and that we will be honest.
Of course mistakes happen, there are instances where things are forgotten, or confused.
I'm sorry, but this is getting a little ridiculous. If you guys want to go start a thread and bitch about your experience go ahead and do that. I'm not trying to negate the fact that you are all contributing how the situation could have been remedied, but I am just saying that it wasn't a good idea to come and post it online. I would like to get back to having more than 50% (don't quote me on an exact number) of the posts be about the BAO and how it could be changed, successes, etc. not people still reminiscing on a bad experience, it happens, I had a bad match too. I understand that this is also about cheating in 40k, but this is not the place for it. I'm just tired of checking the thread and there is 1 post from someone new saying something, and then at least 2 just on this debate. So could you please just take it somewhere else. I understand that it pertains to the BAO, but seriously, get over it, you had a bad experience, stop crying about it, get over it, and focus on what you can do next time to make sure this doesn't happen again, and then spare all of us of your repeated arguments in the incorrect place. Just IMHO.
elotar wrote: "If you see fraud and don't shout fraud - you are a fraud."
It's very hard to catch cheating in 40k, so generally behind any exposed occurrances of it there are hundreds of hidden ones.
Nobody must care how "well" the tournament was run if it's win by cheater. We are living in the 21 sentury, is it really hard to find other Steve Sisk's opponents and get confirmation/refutation of such claims?
I disagree. The average person can effectively supervise 3 to 5 people in a work place before the quality of the supervision becomes effected (see "span of control"). Applying that as a rough guide, a tournament the size of the BAO would need 12 judges each watching 5 games every round to really have an idea of how each game developed and who was or was not trying to play by the rules.
There is a difference. When supervising employees, for example, if I see them doing something incorrectly, I step in and correct the error immediately.
When judging in a 40k tournament, you are not going to interrupt game play to correct "mistakes" made unless there is a disagreement and you are asked to help resolve it.
This is why its called rules judging and not rules referee. We resolve disputes, not stop the game at every rules infraction we see as we pass by.
Dozer Blades wrote: He should have addressed his grievance at the GT. Reading his posts here he comes across to me as a sore loser with an axe to grind. His excuses are just that too and nothing more. There is nothing substantial enough to warrant any merit. How would you like if someone attacked you in a similar manner - is it still okay ?
To be fair Mortetvie has been attacked in a similar way. He is speaking from a place of first hand experience.
Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
To be clear, discussing specific games / results from the BAO is totally acceptable in this thread, as is discussing the painting results, overall meta, etc.
However, name-calling is not. No matter what your opinion is, please stick to Dakka's rule #1- Be Polite. Arguments will be much more persuasive that way, and conducive to discussion. Thanks!
--------------------------
For myself, I agree that it should have been handled at the event itself. That was a big learning experience for me in going to GTs- that if you have an issue, you need to deal with it right there. However, there certainly is pressure to NOT utilize the "thumbs down" result, and so it is often not effective in deterring a player who is consistently giving his opponents terrible games, as many settle for giving the middle result and moving on.
I think a more useful outcome from this, rather than focusing on the specific case, would be how to make it easier for situations like this to come out and be resolved at the actual event in the future. Maybe a "resolution center" with a judge devoted solely to things like that, that players can contact in between rounds and ask them to keep an eye on a certain player, or to resolve certain things?
Seeing it come out on the internet after the fact when nothing can be done about it does suck, but the person mentioned they went to a staff member the next morning and was told nothing could be done already.
I think that's the reaction that likely would have occurred in talking to a "normal" judge at any GT, so maybe some sort of resolution center / judge would be a good idea for events of this caliber?
Just brainstorming, because this kind of thing does seem to happen all too often, and it does seem like there's not an easy path for addressing it at the event themselves, since normal judges have enough on their plates just handling the ongoing games, let alone checking to see if a player is consistently not following the rules throughout the event, or the like.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/07/30 16:54:58
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
Standing in the light, I see only darkness.