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morgoth wrote:

you are correct, wh40k is not balanced, and the DE are rather weak compared to ALL armies

Hence why some "OP weaponry" might actually help re-balance the army. The core concept of Dark Eldar is to have OP Weaponry, unfortunately in 7th, everyone else seems to have caught up, and done a couple of laps around us in the resilience track while we are at it.

You seem to be missing the point here.

Termagants can kill our Vehicles in shooting, let alone assault.

We are paper-thin, our most durable tanks compared to some other armies literally turn a Heavy Bolter into into a Lascannon.
The entire army is paperthin. We do not have Serpent Shields. We do not have defensive Psychic Powers.

The Trade off for all this is meant to be "an unholy amount of of high-end heavy weaponry, ideal for busting open enemy tanks". This is a quote from the codex.

Instead we can't kill a spammable Skimmer transport in anything bar assault.

DE needs more units that can take the Haywire Blaster. You may not like this fact because you are an Eldar player, but unfortunately that's how it rolls. Our weaponry is supposed to overpowered to make up for our underpowered resilience.

If you cannot post without insulting other members then it's better you don't post at all.

 SHUPPET wrote:
You seem to be missing the point here.

Termagants can kill our Vehicles in shooting, let alone assault.

We are paper-thin, our most durable tanks compared to some other armies literally turn a Heavy Bolter into into a Lascannon.
The entire army is paperthin. We do not have Serpent Shields. We do not have defensive Psychic Powers.

The Trade off for all this is meant to be "an unholy amount of of high-end heavy weaponry, ideal for busting open enemy tanks". This is a quote from the codex.

Instead we can't kill a spammable Skimmer transport in anything bar assault.

DE needs more units that can take the Haywire Blaster. You may not like this fact because you are an Eldar player, but unfortunately that's how it rolls. Our weaponry is supposed to overpowered to make up for our underpowered resilience.

Let go of that Haywire Blaster.

Your codex sucks, it needs to be redone, leave it at that, let the professionals do it, they've shown they can do a decent job when they try (top 5 armies are tied between 49% and 52% win rate inside the top-5 group).

morgoth wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Need to do 3 Hull Points. Glance on 4's. So i need 6 hits to cause 3 Hull Points. He *can* have a 3+ jink, so that Sky Rockets to 18 hits needed to cause 3 Hull Points. To get 18 hits, 1/3 will miss, meaning 27 shots are needed.

Is this wrong? I am not great with maths.

Edit: That, in context, is the equivalent of 9 Ravagers all shooting into a single Wave Serpent that is Jinking. On the other hand, a single Wave Serpent shooting does 3 Scatter Laser hits and 4 possible Serpent Shield hits, which causes 4 ish glances on almost anything in my army! Sure i can make him jink, but even a jinking Wave Serpent is a considerable threat!

You are not great with maths. or strategy for that matter.

If your enemy has 4+ WS, you start by forcing one to Jink, then switch target, force another one, etc.

The WS, once it has jinked, is basically useless because it will average 1.5S6 hit and 1S7 hit in the next phase, still at 145 points. It is not a considerable threat, and whenever it fires its shield it becomes extremely vulnerable to any AT weapon, be it melta or even lance.

If you decide to give your Eldar opponent tons of value for a single Jink, you deserve to lose.

Yeah your maths is a bit off as well. Being that we can take 3 Ravagers that will force a Wave Serpent to jink, while nothing else will be capable of it bar 3 squads of Trueborn from turn two onwards, how many Wave Serpents does Eldar usually minimum of? call it 7? Whats 7 - 3? Hey lets say its turn 2 and all the Venoms arrived safely and didn't mishap (because they will never make it into threat range without DS), and assuming that the Eldar player decided not to kill the Ravagers turn 1 with the 6 Wave Serpents that did not jink (and whatever else he has in his army) and lets do some more maths and subtract their 3 volleys from the amount of Wave Serpents as well. What does the equation look like now, 7 - 3 - 3 = ? Still one remaining. 600 points of shooting from the DE Side under perfect conditions later and we have achieved exactly.... feth all. 3 glances spread evenly between 6 models with 3 HP each 6 x 3 - 3 = ? Still 15 HP aka 6 turns of unhampered shooting to bring them down. On paper thin platforms. While 3 are not even jinking. And the rest of our army has Splinter Weaponry that has S0 against any Vehicles. DE needs a way to deal with this. Or else its just a paperthin army with middling firepower. GG.

morgoth wrote:

Shingen wrote:
I'm not going to provide you with a list of a silver platter, plus my way of playing doesn't necessarily suit your style of play.
Eldar Allies (I know some people hate me for saying it) really help with this.

I have a Farseer with 9 Reavers and hope for Misfortune, simply rend the stupid thing to Death...

Their style of play is to read random whine on the forum, then whine some more about it instead of finding a solution to the problem, I don't think your solutions are going to suit that

Thanks for the insight into what DE can do against WS though, I'm glad to hear that.

I believe DE stand a chance against non-ultimate Eldar lists (not SeerStar / Spiders / WraithKnight), but their codex is ultimately too weak to fight at full force against full competitive lists.
OT: When is that codex (and orks) being renewed ?

The fact you are in here learning about DE as you are also in here telling DE players how you know their army better than them, is probably a good suggestion that you should stop posting.

 SHUPPET wrote:


Yeah your maths is a bit off as well. Being that we can take 3 Ravagers that will force a Wave Serpent to jink, while nothing else will be capable of it bar 3 squads of Trueborn from turn two onwards, how many Wave Serpents does Eldar usually minimum of? call it 7? Whats 7 - 3? Hey lets say its turn 2 and all the Venoms arrived safely and didn't mishap (because they will never make it into threat range without DS), and assuming that the Eldar player decided not to kill the Ravagers turn 1 with the 6 Wave Serpents that did not jink (and whatever else he has in his army) and lets do some more maths and subtract their 3 volleys from the amount of Wave Serpents as well. What does the equation look like now, 7 - 3 - 3 = ? Still one remaining. 600 points of shooting from the DE Side under perfect conditions later and we have achieved exactly.... feth all. 3 glances spread evenly between 6 models with 3 HP each 6 x 3 - 3 = ? Still 15 HP aka 6 turns of unhampered shooting to bring them down. On paper thin platforms. While 3 are not even jinking. And the rest of our army has Splinter Weaponry that has S0 against any Vehicles.

That's the part you're misunderstanding.
In 2000 points, if I bring 7 WS, I have almost nothing else, so if you manage to deactivate half of them and bring half of your army to assault range, you've won.
If you make 4 WS jink, they will together have the same firepower as just one WS.
It seems as if you achieve "nothing", but the WS with the DA inside costs 210 points and is worthless in assault.
When you make 4 WS jink, you actually cut the Eldar Army's firepower (that's basically all of its power more or less) by 600 points.
You do not need to bring them down via shooting, you just need them deactivated enough that you can get 500-1000 points of assault troops in their face, at which point they're all dead.

I agree it would suck to have an accomplishment taken away from me, if I won a tourney with Eldar without using Wave Serpents, WK's & Seerstars. Although I don't think WK's are OP, they are just badass as hell and the 250 pt cost reflects that.

But it's pretty undeniable that everything they do have pushes them into OP territory quite easily. Wave Serpents are too much. These things are more OP than Riptides, whether you choose to use them or not. I've never seen anyone bar an Eldar player trying to defend his army say otherwise. It's pretty much a non-debate.

That being said, all their other stuff is nearly entirely on par with some of the best stuff that other balanced armies have.

Jinking Wave Serpents doesn't just "deactivate them". D6+1 TL snapshots x3 is still pretty badass. Half of them not jinking at all. It is far from a victory, the returning fire will absolutely SHRED any part of a DE army that threatens the Serpents.

You need 1-st turn. You need your enemy to bring sane ammount of waveserpents. 2-3 will dominate the field. 4+ will make the game unplayable for you.

No matter what you do, you can't beat a ws spam with pure dark eldar army in a regular game unless you're extremely lucky and your enemy extremely unlucky.

Another option is to play a heavy-blos map where mellee is doable and you can avoid being shot apart turn 1.

 koooaei wrote:
You need 1-st turn. You need your enemy to bring sane ammount of waveserpents. 2-3 will dominate the field. 4+ will make the game unplayable for you.

No matter what you do, you can't beat a ws spam with pure dark eldar army in a regular game.

Another option is to play a heavy-blos map where mellee is doable and you can avoid being shot apart turn 1.

Wow, how little you know.

I think WS are not OP.

And Riptides without Buffmander may not be OP anymore (I don't know).

And SeerStar without Baron may not be OP either.

Jinked Serpents are 1/4th of a Serpent, so it's a good reduction, as I stated. You will be shredded, and that is not an issue, because your goal is to end up in assault with 500-1000 points of assault units and rip that Mech apart. Not to win the first or second turn, but to arrive third turn with enough forces to HulkSmash the Mech.

All of your army list, tactics and strategy have to be geared towards exactly that: reach assault with 500+ points of cold-blooded killers.

Given existing special characters, special rules, LoS, DS, etc. it is possible.

You may still lose, but it won't be a massacre anymore, because you have the tools to break his tools.

A shooty army will always win the first and second turn, the only thing you can do to counter that turn 1-2 one-sided massacre is another shooty army, which does not exist with current DE.

With regards to the DE Codex, I think it's very clear that DE in general is weak, and that plays a part in the DE player perception of the Eldar army, which in general is strong.

I came to a thread about DE vs WS, and I gave strong advice on how to counter WS spam, by forcing jinks and rushing for assault rather than attempting to destroy WS.

What if he just shreds the assaulty part of your army and sensibly ignores the Lances that won't kill him for another 5-6 turns anyway?


Riptides still OP, SeerStar probably not. I never really thought the SeerStar or the WK are OP, just the Serpent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However I agree that people should look at DE as an assault based army, it has a lot to offer. Not strictly assault (we have dope flyers too) but when I see Venoms with Warriors and not Wyches, I feel like they are doing it wrong.

I came to a thread about DE vs WS, and I gave strong advice on how to counter WS spam, by forcing jinks and rushing for assault rather than attempting to destroy WS

No you came to defend the un-defendable - Wave Serpents. Look I get it - people want OP units, and don't want to consider the fact that they might be OP.....

Your only real advice is "play Eldar" ...............

 Mr Morden wrote:

I came to a thread about DE vs WS, and I gave strong advice on how to counter WS spam, by forcing jinks and rushing for assault rather than attempting to destroy WS

No you came to defend the un-defendable - Wave Serpents. Look I get it - people want OP units, and don't want to consider the fact that they might be OP.....

Your only real advice is "play Eldar" ...............

Yeah I see no advice on how to actually beat Eldar, just how to jink Serpents. Yeah, we know how to do that, doesn't work. I swear a lot of people are just theorycrafting and mathhammering, have you actually tried playing DE vs a competent Serpent Spam eldar player? Criticisms of the army and claims that we are "too weak, get over it, wait for next codex" are not considered "strong advice".

Deep strike is you friend so use it. Get ravagers or better still reapers up their asses.

Have you actually tried playing DE with Shingen's or Morgoth's advice vs a similarly competent Serpent Spam Eldar player ?

Yes, these things didn't suddenly become available because you suggested them. You don't even know how many hull points a Venom has bro.

Whats funny is having a super secret list that "apparently" wins sometimes against Eldar Wave Serpent Spam but apparently is too super secret to share?

While I dont believe, that haywire-wyches in masses will be a good counter for WS-Spam, I think its the best a pure DE list can bring against them.

- Forcing jinks is to situational. If the Serpent is in cover, it wont need to jink.
- Haywire blasters are to expensive to get
- Ravagers... well we all know that they are not an option against serpents
- Fliers... cant rely on a unit, that might arrive in turn 4
- Blasterborn... same Problem as ravager.
- Reavers with heat Lances... too expensive

soo haywyches in venoms are our best bet against an clearly OP unit.


Hope Eldar get a new Codex soon... the actual one isnt good for the whole meta.

I think another thing people aren't considering here is with average terrain saturation. Most of the serpents will not even need to jink. Remember, a serpent with holofields behind ruins is rocking a 3+ save without jinking at all. Any somewhat competent Eldar player with 4 serpents at 1850 will rarely need to even jink with a single Serpent. Even with no terrain at all, you can deploy the serpents to obscure each other for a 4+ save with holofields. It's also a 4+ with any other intervening models in the way, including your own.

Also as for the 7 wave serpents at 2000 points. With the standard upgrades, that comes out to 1470 points. that's still 530 points left for outflanking war walkers and deep striking Warpspiders to counter your own deep striking AV 10 paper vehicles.

Shingen wrote:
Sorry can't help myself...

lolololololololololololol

Utterly unhelpful...

Please don't get into an ''Are Wave Serpents OP or not?'' Argument on my thread, go make your own! What this thread is about is how to handle them, and it seems we have our answer. Assault. Now the real problem is we only have a single competent melee unit in the Beast pack, which leads to further problems as they can be utterly controlled by an Eldar Farseer or a few Warlocks rolling Telepathy/Horrify. Grotesques are an option, but the Raider is hardly a reliable way to move them across the bored and once they are walking they are simply scatter laser targets.

Making things Jink is...problematic. If the Wave Serpent has access to any sort of cover, then thanks to Holofields he won't need to jink to stay alive from the scant shots i can put his way, and even a Jinking Wave Serpent is enough to put out a considerable threat. We could think outside the box? Scourges are not cost effective, Reavers with Special Weapons are wasting its Anti Infantry Ability, Talosi are to slow, Void Ravens to Fragile, Reapers suffer single shot syndrome. It seems we have come to an en-passe were we KNOW the best way to deal with Serpents, it's just the Best Way is either not effective enough or relies on the other player being bad/luck, and there is simply nothing we can do about. Less of a 'Best Anti Wave Serpent List' and more of a 'Best Chance We Got'.

On the other hand, i can create a perfectly competitive list without Eldar, Vect, Corteaz + a Revenent Titian, with Wych Venoms and Ravagers to taste. I go first, i win. See, we Dark Eldar can still compete, we just have to be utter scumbags to do so...

Don't know if you guys have seen this, but there is a very good videorep between Rob Fortin, running beast-pack venom-spam Deldar, against Justin Cook, winner of Nova 2013 with his O'vesastar, running wave serpent-spam Eldar.

This battle will probably give you some insight to your question.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/599857.page





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

On the other hand, i can create a perfectly competitive list without Eldar, Vect, Corteaz + a Revenent Titian, with Wych Venoms and Ravagers to taste. I go first, i win. See, we Dark Eldar can still compete, we just have to be utter scumbags to do so...

That combo isn't an auto-win anymore, especially with the nerf to Strength D.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Shingen wrote:
Sorry can't help myself...

lolololololololololololol

Utterly unhelpful...

Please don't get into an ''Are Wave Serpents OP or not?'' Argument on my thread, go make your own! What this thread is about is how to handle them, and it seems we have our answer. Assault. Now the real problem is we only have a single competent melee unit in the Beast pack, which leads to further problems as they can be utterly controlled by an Eldar Farseer or a few Warlocks rolling Telepathy/Horrify. Grotesques are an option, but the Raider is hardly a reliable way to move them across the bored and once they are walking they are simply scatter laser targets.

Making things Jink is...problematic. If the Wave Serpent has access to any sort of cover, then thanks to Holofields he won't need to jink to stay alive from the scant shots i can put his way, and even a Jinking Wave Serpent is enough to put out a considerable threat. We could think outside the box? Scourges are not cost effective, Reavers with Special Weapons are wasting its Anti Infantry Ability, Talosi are to slow, Void Ravens to Fragile, Reapers suffer single shot syndrome. It seems we have come to an en-passe were we KNOW the best way to deal with Serpents, it's just the Best Way is either not effective enough or relies on the other player being bad/luck, and there is simply nothing we can do about. Less of a 'Best Anti Wave Serpent List' and more of a 'Best Chance We Got'.

On the other hand, i can create a perfectly competitive list without Eldar, Vect, Corteaz + a Revenent Titian, with Wych Venoms and Ravagers to taste. I go first, i win. See, we Dark Eldar can still compete, we just have to be utter scumbags to do so...

Wasnt directed at you, it was directed at the guy who didnt know what he was talking about but trying to tell everyone else what to do, dont take it personally


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:
Don't know if you guys have seen this, but there is a very good videorep between Rob Fortin, running beast-pack venom-spam Deldar, against Justin Cook, winner of Nova 2013 with his O'vesastar, running wave serpent-spam Eldar.

This battle will probably give you some insight to your question.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/599857.page





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

On the other hand, i can create a perfectly competitive list without Eldar, Vect, Corteaz + a Revenent Titian, with Wych Venoms and Ravagers to taste. I go first, i win. See, we Dark Eldar can still compete, we just have to be utter scumbags to do so...

That combo isn't an auto-win anymore, especially with the nerf to Strength D.

Thanks for posting this dude, not one I have seen so I will grab some snacks and sit down for a few hours of interesting watching...

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
and even a Jinking Wave Serpent is enough to put out a considerable threat.

4/6 = 1 SL hit > TL shu cannon 1S6 + TL S. Shield 1.35S7
2/6 = 0 SL hit > shu cannon 0.5S6 + S.Shield 0.75S7

On average, you will take 0.66 hits S6AP6, 0.83 hits S6AP1, 1.1 hits S7.

I'm not sure that qualifies as "considerable threat".

Then again, my math may be completely off.. who knows.

Doesn't look like you factored in the Scatter Lasers being Twin Linked? That effectively nets them 1 hit, which is all they need to twin link the Serpent Shield, which will get somewhere between 1 and 2 hits. Vs Armour 10 or 11, that's going to cause a glance/pen or two if they are lucky, which is enough to make someone Jink or even wreck a Venom. A jinking Ravager is almost worthless, a Jinking Wave Serpent can potentially kill a Venom by it's lonesome...

As for that Battle Report, i might be happier if it was pure Dark Eldar or you know...not 3 hours long, but I am sure it will help! As for the cheese list, it might not be auto win, but it is certainly cheesey. Many lists will crumble before the might of the Revenent! Doesn't hold the place of terror it once did, but that's fine, auto win games aren't very fun anyway. Scratch that, as i have never faced a Tyranid player, i don't think i know the feeling

I have Nids as well and they do well against DE as long as you don't take loads of MC's which are like tissue paper to splinter weapons.

Shingen wrote:
I have Nids as well and they do well against DE as long as you don't take loads of MC's which are like tissue paper to splinter weapons.

Tyranids have actually gotten better against DE in this edition, especially with Skyblight Nids. Triple-flyrants are just murder against DE vehicles and now that they only take 1 grounding test, they've become much more survivable. Hive crone templates will now kill a DE transport and possibly the crew inside as well. Lol.

Nids have improved in this edition, there is no doubt about that.

Sadly the formation wont be allowed in tournaments (not in the UK at least) so that limits them somewhat...

It is a shame that Razorwings are so damn expensive as they would work well against Nids.

 jy2 wrote:
Don't know if you guys have seen this, but there is a very good videorep between Rob Fortin, running beast-pack venom-spam Deldar, against Justin Cook, winner of Nova 2013 with his O'vesastar, running wave serpent-spam Eldar.

This battle will probably give you some insight to your question.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/599857.page

Seen it.

@Corsair

Hey, a win is still a win, and it was a well-deserved win. And while Justin might not have been the most experienced mechdar player, he is still a top-notch, GT-winning player who really understands the game.

 jy2 wrote:
@Corsair

Hey, a win is still a win, and it was a well-deserved win. And while Justin might not have been the most experienced mechdar player, he is still a top-notch, GT-winning player who really understands the game.

Yea and it's still anecdotal evidence with TONS of problems. We were looking for in codex solutions without using allies for one. For two we want consistency, something that's obviously not displayed in that report. Eldar with first turn not getting FB is hilariously unlikely. Even going second it's unlikely.

Then there is the fact that the eldar player had no clue what he was doing.Saying he isn't the most experienced is giving way too much credit. Just look at SG's other batreps concerning him and mechdar and it's pretty clear he doesn't know how to run that army well. I am sure he understands 40k, its not that hard a game after all, I am also sure he will get better with mechdar but him not being able to run that army in those reports DOES impact its merit. Like I said before, him BARELY losing despite all these short comings just illustrates how mismatched it is.

Not trying to be harsh, just being bluntly honest about the posted link.