Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

who said anything about damaging the AV 12 with them? They are just darn good.

Personally, I think Lances are the worst tool against AV 12. So you just have to go in all gung ho on em to beat them. I did post several ideas above. I'll probably blog on it as well.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Or Disintegrator Cannons. =)

Can only damage it on the rear - due to the Wave Sepents "oh so weak" AV 12 armour..................

They still outdamage Lances on the rear Armor, doing 3HP instead of 2 before jink. They can Deepstrike and are far better than Lances vs infantry. Compliments a Venom / Wyche heavy list well, anything T3-5 with good armor (aka things that Venoms suck against) will get chewed out by Dissies.


All we really need is some decent ignore cover.

3 Ravagers deep striking into rear armor works quite well I find.

All 3 Dissie? Seems to capitalise on taking rear armor by the balls

Also you have to plan around facing takes all comers when building your army and dissies are pretty good against a variety of targets.

ATM I'm looking at running:something like this (I might tweak a little to fit Sliscus in a squad, not that he's ever gonna make it to combat regardless):



Sliscus

5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC

5x Beastmaster, 15 Kymerae, 4 Razorwing Flocks
5x Beastmaster, 15 Kymerae, 4 Razorwing Flocks

Ravager, 3x Disintegrator Cannon
Ravager, 3x Disintegrator Cannon

1710 pts, I'll probably just take flickerfields and whatever else to tighten it up, or add another Ravager at 1850, Rending alleviates not having Hit & Run a little (e.g a Wraithknight can no longer tar pit neither can TEQ), and it should only take 7 beasts in CC to wreck a Wave Serpent if my estimates are correct (8 to secure). Hopefully splitting 30 beasts into multiple squads leaves enough still alive for each pack to wreck or cripple a Wave Serpent, or at the very least FATALITY one left crippled from Dissies. Wraithknights and anything not in a Vehicle can eat 72 Splintershots.

Can anyone see any major holes? Even against other armies than Eldar

I would get some grisly trophies in their to re-roll those leadership tests. It would be pretty easy to force leadership on a lot of units in your army every turn. Also I am not seeing what sliscus is doing for you since deep strike doesnt help you get into CC until turn three.

Also your beast packs would drop like flies to wave serpents, same with your venoms.

All good points, Sliscus was a combined pick for combat drugs and allowing Venoms to DS against Tau and DS Ravs all in one, but you are right he's not worth the points, I'd be better off with Retrofire Jets and it's not even necessary. Good call on the Grizzlies as well. I'm gonna go back and tighten this up, TY

It's similar to my list except I have a bastion with a comms relay and shove sliscus in or behind it with wracks and a haemo.

1 Beastpack should be enough but 2 is likely to work well.

TY shingen. I'm thinking CC units capable of pulling a beastpack out of a tarpit can achieve the same thing Hit & Run is taken for, and even cover multiple beast packs (even though I think I'm gonna cut mine down to one). Not that the Baron is bad, I'm only saying this because in a Sliscus list 2x min size Reaver squads with an Agonizer Arena Champ getting double combat drugs could really put the hurt on a WK or something, and do a bit more for your list than Baron. And jetbikes are just great in general.

Also I think Baron would be helpful for that +1 to go first. You are really gonna want to go first with this list.

 SHUPPET wrote:
ATM I'm looking at running:something like this (I might tweak a little to fit Sliscus in a squad, not that he's ever gonna make it to combat regardless):



Sliscus

5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC

5x Beastmaster, 15 Kymerae, 4 Razorwing Flocks
5x Beastmaster, 15 Kymerae, 4 Razorwing Flocks

Ravager, 3x Disintegrator Cannon
Ravager, 3x Disintegrator Cannon

1710 pts, I'll probably just take flickerfields and whatever else to tighten it up, or add another Ravager at 1850, Rending alleviates not having Hit & Run a little (e.g a Wraithknight can no longer tar pit neither can TEQ), and it should only take 7 beasts in CC to wreck a Wave Serpent if my estimates are correct (8 to secure). Hopefully splitting 30 beasts into multiple squads leaves enough still alive for each pack to wreck or cripple a Wave Serpent, or at the very least FATALITY one left crippled from Dissies. Wraithknights and anything not in a Vehicle can eat 72 Splintershots.

Can anyone see any major holes? Even against other armies than Eldar

I apologize in advance if I get any of the DE rules wrong, but wouldn't LD be a problem for the 2nd unit of beastpack? Especially against potential mechdar tankshock strategies, where a serpent can potentially tankshock both units of beasts. 1 may not be so bad, but if he is tankshocking with 4-5 serpents, especially when he is trying to get away from your beasts, that is a potential problem that needs to be addressed in your list.

I like the dual-beastpack list. I just think you should have another character in there (i.e. the Baron) to lead the 2nd unit of beasts and perhaps some grisly trophies.

Also, for a TAC list, I think you should consider 1 or 2 dark lance ravagers over the disintegrator ones. Darklances are more useful against the other competitive builds - land raiders, Necron AV13-spam, MSU-mech builds, paladins, crisis suits, T4 multi-wound daemons/tyranids (basically, units that can be ID'd), etc.

Blasterborn are the only Lances I use, 3 ravagers with dissies are my normal heavy support.

Aside from murdering t3 and t4 models, in concert with the poison you can wreck 2 riptides a turn quite easily.

Plus glancing vehicles to death is far more effective now than a hail Mary shot.

The last tournament I played it was a 12 vehicle list, it's way too much for some people to deal with.

I'd swap out duke for a pair of haemonculi. You can start by giving a pain token to each beast pack.
As for tank shock issues, string some wyches into the middle of the packs. No serpents want to get near a squad of haywire.

The weakness of the list in TAC is going to be mech. My dread-list would eat this up. The problem with beast packs is any walker with front armor 12. They can glance it (4+ to hit, 6 for armor pen, and then a 5-6 on the rend roll) but it's a long shot, so you are stuck in combat.

Coteaz
4x3 alcolytes, 4x psibacks
3x dreads, psi-ammo, double autocannons
1 BA librarian
5 death company (1 hand flamer), razorback, double h.flamer
1 BA deathcompany dread (heavy flamer, meltagun)
3 BA dreads, assault cannons heavy flamers
Baal Predator, assault cannon
Land Speeder, dual heavy flamers

~1700 points

 SHUPPET wrote:
ATM I'm looking at running:something like this (I might tweak a little to fit Sliscus in a squad, not that he's ever gonna make it to combat regardless):



Sliscus

5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC
5x Wyches, HWG - Venom, Dual SC

5x Beastmaster, 15 Kymerae, 4 Razorwing Flocks
5x Beastmaster, 15 Kymerae, 4 Razorwing Flocks

Ravager, 3x Disintegrator Cannon
Ravager, 3x Disintegrator Cannon

1710 pts, I'll probably just take flickerfields and whatever else to tighten it up, or add another Ravager at 1850, Rending alleviates not having Hit & Run a little (e.g a Wraithknight can no longer tar pit neither can TEQ), and it should only take 7 beasts in CC to wreck a Wave Serpent if my estimates are correct (8 to secure). Hopefully splitting 30 beasts into multiple squads leaves enough still alive for each pack to wreck or cripple a Wave Serpent, or at the very least FATALITY one left crippled from Dissies. Wraithknights and anything not in a Vehicle can eat 72 Splintershots.

Can anyone see any major holes? Even against other armies than Eldar

I really want to like the Dissies, but the whole idea of deep striking for rear really fall apart if he deploys on the table edge.

If he deploys on the table edge, run a beast pack up each flank. If he wants to use the shuriken cannon or the wave, he's got to turn towards the outside.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
If he deploys on the table edge, run a beast pack up each flank. If he wants to use the shuriken cannon or the wave, he's got to turn towards the outside.

What I mean is, he can hug his own table edge. Even if it is too cluttered to do so, he can get away with turning his serpents a bit because you are not likely to want to DS those raiders so close to the board edge.

Yeah, I get that. But with only a 22.5 degree arc of fire to the side, if you huge the table edge, you can force him to turn, or only fire with the turret. As soon as he turns, he's got his rear open. For 110 points, I'd risk the deep strike, it isn't like you have another option anyway.

Also, if he is hugging the table edge, he isn't claiming objectives.

-Matt

105 pts, sliscus gives all the vehicles jets for free.

Haemos with the beastpack are pointless, Khymerae don't have power from pain so don't benefit from tokens.

Shingen wrote:
105 pts, sliscus gives all the vehicles jets for free.

Haemos with the beastpack are pointless, Khymerae don't have power from pain so don't benefit from tokens.

Odd, I don't see that in the rules.
I do see that having a pain token gives a special rule to a whole unit.
Sharing the pain says the IC's and the attached unit all pool their tokens together.

They pool their tokens together but tokens have no affect on units without the special rule (i believe).

 SHUPPET wrote:
They pool their tokens together but tokens have no affect on units without the special rule (i believe).

Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit, as shown in the list below.
That's the direct quote.
Share the pain gives the token to the unit.
The token gives the special rules to the entire unit.
It doesn't do a lot though, as 1 token is feel no pain, and all the serpent shooting is instant death vs the T3 beasts. I had it backwards and thought the 1st with furious charge.


-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Yeah, I get that. But with only a 22.5 degree arc of fire to the side, if you huge the table edge, you can force him to turn, or only fire with the turret. As soon as he turns, he's got his rear open. For 110 points, I'd risk the deep strike, it isn't like you have another option anyway.

Also, if he is hugging the table edge, he isn't claiming objectives.

-Matt

Fair enough, I guess 110 points could be worth the risk.

That is a little odd on the power from pain point.

Perhaps it was in the old FAQ but I am sure I read somewhere they didnt benefit from it.

I just scanned the codex and I cannot find anywhere it says models, it just says unit, so in theory, yes, Khymerae benefit from it as part of the unit (although if all the Beastmasters die I guess they lose it).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yup it was in the old FAQ...

"Quote :
Q: When a unit comprised of some models with Power from Pain and
some without has a pain token, does the effect it gives apply to every
model in the unit or just to the models with the Power from Pain special
rule? (p25)
A: It only applies to the models with the Power from Pain
special rule."

Its not in the new one though so...

Interesting. Does this mean that a Seer Council with the Baron now gets FNP when they kill something?

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Interesting. Does this mean that a Seer Council with the Baron now gets FNP when they kill something?

No. You need to have the PfP special rule to benefit from it.

Just because the FAQ used to be there but isn't anymore doesn't mean that everyone in the unit would benefit from it (unless it is something like Fearless, which affects the entire unit). The FAQ was just there to help clarify what many people believed anyways - that you don't benefit unless you have the PfP special rule. Just because it is no longer there doesn't automatically mean that the reverse must be true.

Jy2, the literal reading of the PFP rule makes it affect the whole unit, and the omission of an FAQ changing that certainly does mean that raw PFP affects models in a unit with a pain token even if they don't have the rule themselves. It's simply what the rule says - there is no other way to read it: "confers a special rule to the entire unit".

edit: If you wish to belabour the point, I suggest a YMDC thread.

Agreed....that this discussion should continue in YMDC. Sorry for the slight derailment.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Interesting. Does this mean that a Seer Council with the Baron now gets FNP when they kill something?

No. When a unit with pain power kills a unit, they gain a token. The seer council doesn't have the PP rule, and can't generate a token. If the Baron has a token and then joins them they benefit, but since the unit itself does not have the rule, they don't gain tokens.

That's why the Haemonculi is nice, he start with one.
Oddly, it looks like the Parasite Engine can pass out tokens to anyone (friendly unit).

Of course, none of this helps DE kill serpents.

-Matt

Just to clarify, I would not attempt to play it like this. I am just more or less amusing myself.